Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[rrdude]

I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.

Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.

This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?

Per Wikipedia:

In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.

That's a wee bit of simplification, as the PC was formed well b4 the Staggers Act took effect, and if you really follow the lineage to Conrail, you'll see they turned things around, system-wide, quite handsomly

 

[cirdan]

I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.

Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.

This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?
Per Wikipedia:

In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.

I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.

 

[user 1215]

I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.

Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.

This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?
Per Wikipedia:

In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.

I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.

But the Pennsy of the 60s had the famed GG-1 which is the most idolized locomotive ever.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.

But the Pennsy of the 60s had the famed GG-1 which is the most idolized locomotive ever.

Actually the GG-1 was a product of the PARR of the '30s as it went into service in 1935.

 

[MikefromCrete]

What's the PARR? The proper reporting marks are PRR.

The Pennsylvania Railroad was the "standard railroad" of the early part of the 20th century, a massive operation that included freight, long distance passenger throughout the Northeast and Midwest and commuter operations in some of the nation's largest cities. It built iconic passenger stations everywhere it went. By the late 1960's, it was on its knees due to governmental regulations and all those passenger trains. Nevertheless, it participated in the Metroliner program, which set the tone for passenger operations ever since. Never look down on the Pennsy, it was a great railroad.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

What's the PARR?

And yet it would seem someone figured out the meaning all on their own!

 

[Anderson]

That's PARR for the course.

 

[me_little_me]

I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.

Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.

This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?
Per Wikipedia:

In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.

I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.

My comment had nothing to do with Pennsy of the '20s and 30s. I was responding to the comment about "at the time of the advent of Amtrak". They dumped their passenger service but couldn't even make it in freight. Most RRs claimed the passenger service was losing money. Obviously, for the Pennsy, everything was losing money.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.

Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.

This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?
Per Wikipedia:

In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.

I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.

My comment had nothing to do with Pennsy of the '20s and 30s. I was responding to the comment about "at the time of the advent of Amtrak". They dumped their passenger service but couldn't even make it in freight. Most RRs claimed the passenger service was losing money. Obviously, for the Pennsy, everything was losing money.

No railroad in the Northeast was making money in the late 1960's, that's what brought about Penn Central and later, Conrail. The fortunes of railroads changed with the Staggers Act which eliminated a lot of government oversight and allowed railroads to negotiate freight rates.

 

[Anderson]

One thing to remember is that a lot of the problems with northeastern freights is that they were stuck keeping up hundreds, if not thousands, of miles of little-used tracks because they couldn't get an abandonment approved. Of the major railroads in the northeast in the mid-60s, the New Haven was probably the farthest up the creek...it's a good question whether a Penn Central without the New Haven might have been able to lurch along until Agnes, for example.

The other issue is that when the PC went bankrupt, they got to stop paying on a lot of loans...but their counterparties in the region had also loaned them money (there were loans back and forth) and they still had to pay the PC on those loans. This was, IIRC, a good part of what did in either the Reading or the Erie Lackawanna.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Looks like Tri-Rail on the FEC (and FEC on Tri-Rail) is actually happening:

Federal officials on Thursday announced they are kicking in $13.75 million toward the $47.25 million cost of connecting the Florida East Coast Railway and Tri-Rail in Hialeah and West Palm Beach. The state and three rail entities have already agreed to pay for the rest of it.

The connections potentially would allow some freight trains leaving Miami to switch to the Tri-Rail tracks, which affect 72 crossings from Miami to West Palm Beach, compared with more than 200 crossings on the FEC.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/palm-beach/fl-fec-tri-rail-connection-20130905,0,7874760.story

Edited to add:

Some different details in today's Palm Beach Post.

FDOT pays $29 million

The feds pay $13.75 million

SFRTA pays $2.5 million

FEC pays $1 million

CSX pays $1 million

In West Palm Beach, phase 1 would be rehabilitating a currently unused connection that runs along 27th street. This could be ready by July 2015. Phase 2 would be a new connector along 25th street, that would allow northbound trains to go from Tri-Rail to the FEC. That would be ready by January 2017. Here is satellite view of the area: http://goo.gl/maps/gT07r

 

[jis]

Some more details of costs and where the money is projected to come from:

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2013/09/11/all-aboard-florida-rail-and-real.html?page=all

and here is part 2:

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2013/09/12/all-aboard-putting-in-just-5-of-24b.html?page=all

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Towns along the FEC have realized recently that they will need to pay the costs of upgrading 92 road crossings of the tracks. The City of Vero Beach has formed a temporary commission to get "public and business input" on this matter.

Folks who are following the progress of AAF might enjoy this pdf file of the Addendum to the City Council Meeting Agenda from 9/17/13 for the creation of the temporary commission.

 

[Anderson]

Just wondering: Are the towns on the hook because they built the crossings after the railroad went in?

 

[Brian_tampa]

Towns along the FEC have realized recently that they will need to pay the costs of upgrading 92 road crossings of the tracks. The City of Vero Beach has formed a temporary commission to get "public and business input" on this matter.

Folks who are following the progress of AAF might enjoy this pdf file of the Addendum to the City Council Meeting Agenda from 9/17/13 for the creation of the temporary commission.

Last Thursday AAF told the WPB MPO that AAF will pay for safety improvements at railroad crossings. Here is the link to a Palm Beach Post newspaper article:

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-to-pay-for-safety-improvements-/nZ2jn/

***FECI Executive Vice President Jose Gonzalez on Thursday told the Palm Beach Metropolitan Planning Organization that All Aboard Florida saw the community conversation “playing out as a negative” when the company believes the express passenger rail is a positive project for Southeast Florida.

All Aboard Florida will upgrade crossings to safety levels needed for the passenger rail during its track upgrades, Gonzalez said, and not hold cities responsible for that work. Afterward, municipalities will resume responsibility for maintenance.

“We see this as a true partnership,” Gonzalez said.***

I guess the negative publicity might have played a role in this change of heart. Or perhaps the ongoing EIS work also influenced this decision.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Last Thursday AAF told the WPB MPO that AAF will pay for safety improvements at railroad crossings. Here is the link to a Palm Beach Post newspaper article:

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-to-pay-for-safety-improvements-/nZ2jn/

***FECI Executive Vice President Jose Gonzalez on Thursday told the Palm Beach Metropolitan Planning Organization that All Aboard Florida saw the community conversation “playing out as a negative” when the company believes the express passenger rail is a positive project for Southeast Florida.

All Aboard Florida will upgrade crossings to safety levels needed for the passenger rail during its track upgrades, Gonzalez said, and not hold cities responsible for that work. Afterward, municipalities will resume responsibility for maintenance.

“We see this as a true partnership,” Gonzalez said.***

I guess the negative publicity might have played a role in this change of heart. Or perhaps the ongoing EIS work also influenced this decision.

Seems to me like a wise call by AAF, as working with the counties and cities AAF will pass through is certainly in their best interest.

Many in Vero Beach were looking forward to the prospect of Amtrak stopping in town. Now they are going to have lots of pax trains - but they will just be highballing through town, and the prospects for the Meteor are seen as waning. As you probably know, Vero's and especially Indian River County's politics, are 'right of center,' and many there don't see value in ANY pax trains - particularly ones that are seen as an inconvenience with no benefits - taxpayer supported or not. I'm sure the prospect of taxpayers paying for the upgrades raised more than a few hairs, even if I large percentage of the population don't have many hairs on their balding heads. :giggle:

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Just wondering: Are the towns on the hook because they built the crossings after the railroad went in?

That is certainly how it seems, as it sounds that the roads were put in under easements granted by the FEC.

 

[Anderson]

Last Thursday AAF told the WPB MPO that AAF will pay for safety improvements at railroad crossings. Here is the link to a Palm Beach Post newspaper article:

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-to-pay-for-safety-improvements-/nZ2jn/

***FECI Executive Vice President Jose Gonzalez on Thursday told the Palm Beach Metropolitan Planning Organization that All Aboard Florida saw the community conversation “playing out as a negative” when the company believes the express passenger rail is a positive project for Southeast Florida.

All Aboard Florida will upgrade crossings to safety levels needed for the passenger rail during its track upgrades, Gonzalez said, and not hold cities responsible for that work. Afterward, municipalities will resume responsibility for maintenance.

“We see this as a true partnership,” Gonzalez said.***

I guess the negative publicity might have played a role in this change of heart. Or perhaps the ongoing EIS work also influenced this decision.

Seems to me like a wise call by AAF, as working with the counties and cities AAF will pass through is certainly in their best interest.

Many in Vero Beach were looking forward to the prospect of Amtrak stopping in town. Now they are going to have lots of pax trains - but they will just be highballing through town, and the prospects for the Meteor are seen as waning. As you probably know, Vero's and especially Indian River County's politics, are 'right of center,' and many there don't see value in ANY pax trains - particularly ones that are seen as an inconvenience with no benefits - taxpayer supported or not. I'm sure the prospect of taxpayers paying for the upgrades raised more than a few hairs, even if I large percentage of the population don't have many hairs on their balding heads. :giggle:

It's going to be interesting to see how the two plans (FEC/AAF and Amtrak) play out. I suspect that both will happen if Amtrak agrees to be R/D south of Cocoa (or thereabouts), or at least south of WPB.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

It's going to be interesting to see how the two plans (FEC/AAF and Amtrak) play out. I suspect that both will happen if Amtrak agrees to be R/D south of Cocoa (or thereabouts), or at least south of WPB.

That would certainly help Amtrak's cause, but what about AAF being concerned about late s/b Meteors (and Stars?) slowing them down? Yes, FEC will dispatch, but...

 

[Anderson]

It's going to be interesting to see how the two plans (FEC/AAF and Amtrak) play out. I suspect that both will happen if Amtrak agrees to be R/D south of Cocoa (or thereabouts), or at least south of WPB.

That would certainly help Amtrak's cause, but what about AAF being concerned about late s/b Meteors (and Stars?) slowing them down? Yes, FEC will dispatch, but...

It depends on where Amtrak returns to the A-line...I can't recall where the planned connection is (only that it exists). The other aspect is that if Amtrak is stopping at set-off sidings, then a late Silver that was properly out-of-slot would just get parked at Cocoa until the relevant AAF train went by and cleared the blocks, slot in behind them, and proceed accordingly. The other option is a substantial pad at JAX SB, something that might be desirable in a vacuum.

 

[jis]

It's going to be interesting to see how the two plans (FEC/AAF and Amtrak) play out. I suspect that both will happen if Amtrak agrees to be R/D south of Cocoa (or thereabouts), or at least south of WPB.

But south of WPB isn't Amtrak going to be on Tri-Rail? Why would FEC care whether it is R/D or not on some other railroad? If it has to be R/D south of Coca, how will people at Melbourne for example get to Miami using rail? Afterall FEC is not allowed to stop there on their Orlando service without having an argument first with the Florida DOT.

 

[Anderson]

(1) South of WPB, Amtrak does R/D as it is, so it would be a continuuation of present practice. The only way that would change is if Amtrak were to add a state-sponsored train on the route...and that seems highly unlikely at the moment. I'd bet on a state-sponsored FEC/AAF-label train before I would a state-sponsored Amtrak train on the route.
(2) More to the point, if FEC expects to do business WPB-MIA, it seems likely that even if Amtrak is running a few blocks away (and that's really what it is in a few places...it's not like they're running miles and miles away from one another) they'd be seen as a competitor for the same traffic.
(3) That said, I could see Amtrak being allowed full service at stops between Cocoa and WPB absent FEC serving those stops. The question is whether FEC would want to sweep in a few years later and add at least off-peak service at some of those stops as well (or for that matter, start running trains all the way to JAX once the stations have been taken care of).

 

[jis]

Sure Amtrak could maintain status quo. My point was that there is no real reason for FEC to care what Amtrak does there.

I doubt that one or two Amtrak trains a day would be considered competition for anything in the way of frequent commuter service that FEC would presumably run between WPB and Miami. It would be sort of like NJT thinking of Amtrak as competition on the NEC. They don't. Or for that matter Amtrak NEC Regional/Acela thinking of Amtrak LD trains as competition. They shouldn't if they were separate organizations. They serve substantially different markets with relatively minor overlap.

For adding service to stations north of WPB to Orlando FEC will have to first negotiate with the Florida DOT regarding impact on Beach Line tolls. That is the agreement that they signed for getting to use easement along the Beach Line.

 

[cirdan]

I doubt that one or two Amtrak trains a day would be considered competition for anything in the way of frequent commuter service that FEC would presumably run between WPB and Miami. It would be sort of like NJT thinking of Amtrak as competition on the NEC. They don't. Or for that matter Amtrak NEC Regional/Acela thinking of Amtrak LD trains as competition. They shouldn't if they were separate organizations. They serve substantially different markets with relatively minor overlap.

And even that minor overlap could hypothetically be turned to something positive if the will to cooperate existed.

Just as on another thread we discussed Amtrak opening LD trains for journeys entirely inside the NEC, in a hypothetical world Amtrak and FEC might work together and FEC could take over the marketing and ticketing of Amtrak journeys entirely on its own corridor, thus making things easier for the passenger who can buy all tickets and get all schedule information from a single interface rather than having to check two unconnected sources. Think of it like a codeshare if you like. Of course their booking systems would have to be somehow linked so Amtrak knows which of its seats FEC has sold.

 

[John Bredin]

Just as on another thread we discussed Amtrak opening LD trains for journeys entirely inside the NEC, in a hypothetical world Amtrak and FEC might work together and FEC could take over the marketing and ticketing of Amtrak journeys entirely on its own corridor, thus making things easier for the passenger who can buy all tickets and get all schedule information from a single interface rather than having to check two unconnected sources. Think of it like a codeshare if you like. Of course their booking systems would have to be somehow linked so Amtrak knows which of its seats FEC has sold.

Even better if the codesharing was mutual, with Amtrak's website and agents selling FEC tickets and showing FEC schedules as well as FEC's system showing connecting Amtrak schedules & ticketing. The codeshare would be as much for people traveling by Amtrak to Florida and then riding FEC to their final destination -- FEC as an Amtrak Thruway -- as for marketing a combined service within the FEC corridor.

As you say, the FEC & Amtrak systems (internal reservations & website) would have to be fully linked. As I understand it, the Amtrak website can't sell Thruway tickets, but only live & phone agents can.