Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[cirdan]

Compared to accommodations on Amtrak trains TGV Duplex 2nd Class is indeed quite cramped. Been there done that.

Since the distance between Cocoa and Orlando Airport is covered in much less than half an hour and for the next decade or more the projected traffic is one train each way per hour, this is not of immediate concern. Eventually if they want to go higher than that they will have to construct a long passing siding somewhere in the middle. but at present it is impossible to justify building a double track railroad, specially when one has to spend ones own money to do so. The current EIS is for what is to be built currently and not for all future eventualities. However, as long as nothing precludes adding a second track in significant parts of the ROW we are good for now.

Are there any legal restrictions to the maximum speed you may run on a track that is used in both directions?

I understand in some countries there are such laws, which is part of the reason virtually all high speed lines are double track.

 

[jis]

There are no restrictions with proper signaling system. NEC runs bidirectionally signaled tracks at 150mph, soon to be 160mph.

HSR systems are double tracked mainly because they are designed to carry much heavier traffic than the Miami - Orlando line is designed to carry, at least initially. It is very difficult to recoup high infrastructure costs running only 32 trains a day, which basically amount to less than 2tph on an average. Removing the non-operational hours, in case of AAF it amounts to 2tph on any section of the ROW between MCO and Cocoa.

 

[Brian_tampa]

the majority of the Cocoa to Orlando airport will be double track. From what I can see (reading the OOCEA and FDOT alignment documents that are part of the DEIS) the single track section will be in the middle of the route. Approximately 7 miles east of the airport to about 4 miles west of the St Johns river bridge. #32 turnouts will be installed at each end of single track territory.

 

[jis]

the majority of the Cocoa to Orlando airport will be double track. From what I can see (reading the OOCEA and FDOT alignment documents that are part of the DEIS) the single track section will be in the middle of the route. Approximately 7 miles east of the airport to about 4 miles west of the St Johns river bridge. #32 turnouts will be installed at each end of single track territory.

Ah, good to know. Missed that part. Thanks. That should easily allow upto 8 tph, with fleeting blocks in each direction, as Amtrak does on the NEC between Secaucus and Penn Station with single tracking through the North River Tubes.The capacity goes down dramatically if you start considering multiple fleeting blocks because of te time cost of claring the single track in one direction before the fleet in the opposite direction can start. It is of course a function of the transit time of the single track block and the headway permitted by the signaling system for safe operation.

 

[Brian_tampa]

After looking at google maps, the single track section will be about 16-17 miles in length. I believe AAF says the overall length between Orlando-Airport and Cocoa will be about 40 miles.

 

[jis]

That should be under 10 minute transit time, possibly as low as 8 minutes, if done at 125 mph. I wonder what headway will be permitted by the signaling system, at 125mph.

 

[beautifulplanet]

Off-topic once again:

Compared to accommodations on Amtrak trains TGV Duplex 2nd Class is indeed quite cramped. Been there done that.

Many might think that of course it's legit to state any opinion. So in case the opinion is that someone finds TGV Duplex "very cramped in second class", then many might think that's 100% legit. There might also be someone thinking they rather fly Air France intercontinental first class with 81 inch seat pitch, because they regard the intercontinental flat-seat 55 inch business class to be very cramped. Or someone who thinks Amtrak's 42 inch coach seats on the Northeast Corridor might be "very cramped", as they don't offer the 50 inches pitch of the Superliner coach cars.

At the same time, it seems like for most people, the TGV Duplex 2nd class seats are just the opposite of "very cramped". As it might be obvious looking at the seat pitch numbers provided in the post above, many regard tight airline economy class seating as "very cramped".

Here are just some other opinions:

Rail travel website "seat61.com" advises its readers that "2nd class is perfectly comfortable so there's no need to pay for 1st class [...]".

On the FlyerTalk forum, the following are all from different posts from just one single page, it's not one and the same person speaking:

"For TGV, I have always been pleased with 2nd Class--plenty of room."

"While there is a difference between 1st and 2nd Class on the TGV, it should be noted that 2nd Class is worlds better than coach class on an airplane."

"If you are only used to air travel you will find that second class on the TGV has about as much space as first class on US domestic airlines."

"I've gone both first and second on the TGV South. I wouldn't spend more to go first again. [...]"

So it might appear to many like 2nd class on TGV Duplex is not regarded as "very cramped" by the majority of the people, instead they seem to be quite satisfied with the service.

On-topic:

the majority of the Cocoa to Orlando airport will be double track. From what I can see (reading the OOCEA and FDOT alignment documents that are part of the DEIS) the single track section will be in the middle of the route. Approximately 7 miles east of the airport to about 4 miles west of the St Johns river bridge. #32 turnouts will be installed at each end of single track territory.

Thank you, Brian_tampa, for this information. Many might think that if this is how it will actually be built with 16 single track miles in the middle of the 40 mile Cocoa to MCO section, then it will not have such a negative effect on operating quality. The DEIS document is 500+ pages, so just browsing through all of this, it might sometimes be a little difficult to find the desired information. Some might think that if it was 40 miles of single track from Cocoa to MCO, especially without any sidings, it could have put a serious dent in operating quality, which could have seemed like a missed chance since some might think All Aboard Florida represents such a big opportunity to substantially change the perceptions of inter-city passenger rail in the US for the better, with a rail service that actually operates on modern infrastructure with tracks owned by its parent company, so instead of having huge delays like Amtrak does on a regular basis, it has the potential to be a very reliable rail system with a high on-time performance (when not cutting too many corners, f.e. because it was "impossible to justify building a double track railroad" when one is using "ones (sic!) own money to do so").

 

[jis]

I believe the Cocoa - Orlando section will be owned by AAF and not by FEC. That is how they got off the STB hook, so there is no going back on that.

 

[Anderson]

I believe the Cocoa - Orlando section will be owned by AAF and not by FEC. That is how they got off the STB hook, so there is no going back on that.

What did the track ownership have to do with the STB situation? I thought the STB bit had to do with no ticket interlining more than anything.

Edit: Also, AAF is a wholly-owned subsidiary. If freight stuff gets into the mix...well, what's the difference on who owns the tracks? It's like the difference between C&O, B&O, and Chessie back in the 80s.

 

[cirdan]

Many might think that of course it's legit to state any opinion. So in case the opinion is that someone finds TGV Duplex "very cramped in second class", then many might think that's 100% legit. There might also be someone thinking they rather fly Air France intercontinental first class with 81 inch seat pitch, because they regard the intercontinental flat-seat 55 inch business class to be very cramped. Or someone who thinks Amtrak's 42 inch coach seats on the Northeast Corridor might be "very cramped", as they don't offer the 50 inches pitch of the Superliner coach cars.

At the same time, it seems like for most people, the TGV Duplex 2nd class seats are just the opposite of "very cramped". As it might be obvious looking at the seat pitch numbers provided in the post above, many regard tight airline economy class seating as "very cramped".

Here are just some other opinions:

Rail travel website "seat61.com" advises its readers that "2nd class is perfectly comfortable so there's no need to pay for 1st class [...]".

I was actually comparing the TGV Duplex to the Corail cars they replaced, not to any airliners. So I stand by my statement.

Cramped may not just be a function of seat inches, but there is also a perception of crampedness, caused for example by low ceilings, inability (in certain seats) to look out of the window, fellow passengers cluttering up the aisle with luggage etc.

The SNCF website frequently has special offers on 1st class seats and I generally buy these if the price difference is reasonable. If I have to pay a lot more, I don't bother. But if the train is a single level TGV or a Corail, I don't even bother to checvk first class prices.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Seems the other shoe has finally dropped on the alternative financing plan (to a RRIF loan) that AAF has been hinting at for a while. Reports tonight say that AAF will seek $1.75B in "private activity bonds" to finance the project. I assume this will also pay off the previous PIK bonds that were sold earlier at a high interest rate. The article says AAF is highly confident that the bonds will be sold.

This will help move the project along IMO and also silence some of the NIMBYS on the Treasure Coast (maybe!). One less issue to deal with now it appears.

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2014/10/06/aboard-florida-move-claims-take-heat-taxpayers/16834789/

Edit: from the AAF website - more details:

Financing
FACT: All Aboard Florida is fully financed to begin construction on the south segment. Our current RRIF loan application is still pending, however, we have decided to pursue private debt financing for the remaining capital needed. A private activity bond (PAB) allocation would represent an alternative plan to finance the project and would replace or substantially reduce the current RRIF request.

 

[Brian_tampa]

more details about the private activity bonds being issued by AAF later this year from the bondbuyer.com website today:

Highlights:

$3.17B total will be spent on the AAF project - includes rolling stock, construction of stations and development, railroad construction, land acquisition.

Edit: I have been told that the $1.42B number "from other funds" is not correct. So the best number for overall cost is the approximately $2.5B number that has been reported in the past.

AAF to sell bonds in November and December.

Florida Development Finance Corporation already gave preliminary approval back in August.

Sole payment for the bonds is revenue from the project - i.e. no public money.

Proceeds from previous bond sale is being held in escrow. I assume AAF is using FECI money for now to cover short term expenses, until the PABs are sold or the RRIF loan is approved. Either fund would be used to pay off the cost (not the actual bond proceeds, which would be returned) of issuing the bonds last summer.

Brevard and Miami-Dade have to modify their agreements with FDFC to allow for such a large bond amount.

http://www.bondbuyer.com/news/regionalnews/florida-passenger-train-sponsors-seek-175b-in-private-activity-bonds-1066844-1.html

BRADENTON, Fla. - All Aboard Florida, the $3.2 billion private passenger train service proposed between Miami and Orlando, applied for what may be the largest private activity bond allocation ever awarded by the Federal Highway Administration.
All Aboard requested a $1.75 billion allocation in August, and hopes to sell tax exempt private activity bonds in November and December to partly finance the 235-mile-long project, the company told The Bond Buyer.
If an allocation is approved, it also may be the first completely privately owned and operated transportation project to receive some of the $15 billion in exempt facility bonds authorized by Congress under the Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act.
The FHA had authorized $10.2 billion in PABs as of Sept. 17. Of that amount, the largest, single federal PAB allocation has been $1.3 billion for a $2.45 billion light-rail project in Maryland, which could be eclipsed by the Florida passenger rail project.
To date, most - if not all - FHA private activity bond allocations have had a public sponsor and used the financing as part of a public-private partnership. Maryland, for example, expects to select a private partner next year to design, build, finance, operate and maintain its 16.2-mile commuter line.
All Aboard Florida doesn't have a public partner in development or financing of its project.
Florida officials including Gov. Rick Scott have denied that any direct state funding will go toward the rail project.
In communities along the controversial train route, particularly the congested east coast, there will be publicly funded maintenance costs for improved rail crossing safety.
At Orlando International Airport, where a $1.1 billion capital improvement plan has received some state funds, All Aboard is leasing property for its train station as part of a long-planned intermodal transit facility that will also serve local commuter rail.
AAF, whose parent company is Florida East Coast Industries, hasn't announced its finance team publicly.
"All Aboard Florida successfully secured private financing for the first phase of the project earlier this year," said Michael Reininger, president and chief development officer of All Aboard Florida. "We have therefore determined to pursue private debt financing for the remaining capital needed."
Reininger also said that investors in the tax exempt bonds to be sold are "private entities, therefore, this financing mechanism poses zero risk to the local, county, state or federal governments."
"The $1.75 billion of bonds will be marketed and sold to private investors in the capital markets," he said. "Repayment of the bonds will be an obligation of All Aboard Florida, and no other private or public entity."
AAF also applied for a $1.6 billion low-interest loan from the Federal Railroad Administration's Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing Loan program that would be the largest of its kind.
While All Aboard has often said that the project is being privately financed, opponents of the project concerned about its potential safety impacts have argued that the RRIF loan could be a liability for taxpayers.
AAF said the RRIF loan application is still pending, but private activity bonds would be an alternative method to finance the project that would replace or substantially reduce the RRIF loan request.
Kevin Thompson, spokesman for the Federal Railroad Administration, confirmed that All Aboard submitted applications for the RRIF loan and the bond allocation and referred all other questions to the railroad company.
All Aboard is proposing to offer 235 miles of daily passenger service from Orlando to Miami, with stops in West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale.
A draft environmental impact statement for a portion of the line is under review at this time, and public information meetings have been scheduled for October and November
The Florida Development Finance Corp. has been asked to serve as conduit issuer for the private activity bonds if the federal government authorizes the allocation, said executive director Bill Spivey.
FDFC is authorized statewide to issue industrial revenue bonds through interlocal agreements in the counties affected by the financed projects.
The FDFC board gave preliminary approval to issue debt for All Aboard Florida on Aug. 20, so the resolution could be included in the company's federal application for the private activity bond allocation, Spivey said.
The preliminary approval also started the process for necessary documents to be developed, and the deal still requires final authorization from the FDFC board, he said.
AAF plans to make improvements in eight counties in order to build its new passenger service, but preliminarily, bond proceeds would be spent in only five of those counties, according to All Aboard's application to the FDFC for conduit financing.
The FDFC's existing interlocal agreements with Brevard and Miami-Dade counties must be amended to allow for the amount bonds that All Aboard expects to issue, according to Joseph Stanton, a partner at the law firm Broad and Cassel, which represents the Florida Development Finance Corp.
Brevard and Miami-Dade officials will be asked to amend the interlocal agreement later this month or in early November, said Stanton.
"Our disclosure documents will clearly enumerate that sole payment for the bonds is revenue from the project," he said.
Spivey said it is too soon to determine if the bonds will be publicly marketed, of if they will be sold in a private placement or limited offering.
"I think that we would want the bonds to be sold in minimum denominations of $100,000, and to institutional or accredited investors," he said, adding that similar structures are often required on other financings by the FDFC.
All Aboard's application for conduit financing said the company is in discussion with rating agencies for the proposed issuance.
The application also indicates that AAF plans to use $1.75 billion of privately placed fixed-rate bond proceeds in conjunction with $1.42 billion of other funds to finance land acquisition, construction, equipment and rolling stock.
Some bond proceeds may be used to reimburse prior expenses, including the issuance of $405 million in high-yield notes that closed on July 1 with a 12% coupon. The note proceeds are currently held in escrow, according to the application.
"Upon successful completion of an offering of private activity bonds by AAF or its affiliates, the proceeds from this $405 million debt financing will be returned to the holders thereof, and neither AAF nor any of its affiliates will receive any such debt financing proceeds," the application said.
The company said it is currently in discussion with a number of "top-tier financial institutions" and expects to select its lead underwriter shortly.
The privately owned and operated passenger rail service will be offered along a 235-mile corridor between central and south Florida with a total of 32 daily roundtrips.
The service is expected to begin in the fourth quarter of 2016 between Miami and West Palm Beach, and in the first quarter of 2017 from West Palm to Orlando.
Spivey said All Aboard's application for conduit financing helps the Florida Development Finance Corp. fulfill its purpose. FDFC has served as conduit issuer for charter schools, health care and independent living facilities, private airport and economic development projects, among others.
"FDFC's mission is to undertake financings as a conduit issuer for economic development purposes," Spivey said. "If you look at All Aboard Florida's website, they've done some economic analysis and there are some significant near- and long-term benefits to these jurisdictions."
In addition to creating thousands of jobs during construction and operation, the train is expected to result in an economic impact of $6.4 billion from rail line construction and operations, and transit oriented development, according to an AAF commissioned economic impact study by the Washington Economics Group Inc.
The project would also result in an estimated $653 million in new federal, state and local tax revenue, the study said.

 

[jis]

The issuance of $1.753 billion worth of private bonds by FDFC required the raising of caps by Miami-Dade and Brevard Counties. Both the counties voted to do so today. So the all regulatory hindrances to the issuance of those bonds have now been addressed and cleared. In Brevard the vote was 3-2 but it did pass. At least one commissioner voted against it not because he is opposed to the project but because he believes that the whole thing should be handled by the newly elected commission. This could very well be a passing the buck exercise hoping that the next commission would behave more aligned with what he actually wants, which of course no one knows for sure.

In a few weeks of course the composition of the county commission will be changed following the elections. So who knows what will happen next. As part of this motion they also resolved to change a bunch of agreements with FEC regarding quiet zone funding (AAF and state responsibility, not county responsibility) and sealed corridor funding (100% AAF responsibility). Also the nature of the agreement between AAF and OCEA became clearer and apparently the wheels are already in motion to modify/address the concerns implicit in that agreement smoothing the way for adding a station in Brevard County. But this will not happen until after the current project goes on line. The Commissioners did not appear to have a problem with that situation, and appeared confident that what is needed will get done.

 

[jis]

From the Palm Beach Post re: the Miami-Dade vote.

http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2014/10/21/miami-dade-approves-all-aboard-florida-bond-issue/

 

[Brian_Tampa]

From what I have been told, a new station cannot be added at this time because it would impact the EIS process. That is the real reason why AAF has been non-committal to an additional station north of WPB. I do believe that Brevard will be the area that gets the new station. IRC and St Lucie have been so opposed to AAF. Martin County is too close to WPB. Expect to see a station to serve Cocoa and the cruise ships there is my bet.

 

[Anderson]

Brian:
As I understand it, they'll also have to negotiate with the expressway people to add anything north of WPB due to the terms of the deal they did with them to get access.

 

[Paulus]

Brian:

As I understand it, they'll also have to negotiate with the expressway people to add anything north of WPB due to the terms of the deal they did with them to get access.

Here's the agreement, relevant portion starts on the bottom of page 4.

 

[jis]

It is just a matter of negotiating a money amount to cover the highway Bond holders. I understand it will take the form of certain amount of revenue sharing from the additional stop for the period of the bonds, or some such. It is not as big a deal as has been made out. Alternatively the state could choose to chip in some. It is currently an open issue since nothing will happen until after the current plans are completed.

Reninger said that they have such an agreement in place for the currently planned stations.

Basically they want AAF to pay them $2 for each car that is removed from the Beachline as a result of the train. This translates to some amount less than $2 as a tax on each Orlando Cocoa/Melbourne or vice versa ticket sold. That does not sound like an insurmountable amount in any case anyway. This is how it was roughly explained in a separate meeting. The reason that it was not part of the first round of negotiations was to divide and conquer, and to keep things simple for the first round. The AAF folks have repeatedly said that for this reason and in order not to jeopardize the EIS they cannot make any written commitments at present but once the service is established they have every intention to add a Cocoa/Melbourne stop and would even be open to building a branch to Port Canavaral.

It was no surprise that the Mayor of Cocoa came out in strong support of AAF. The two Commissioners who voted against, the more vocal one is from Palm Bay - probably affected by the virulent anti-propaganda going on to their immediate south in Indian River and St. Lucie. And the other one voted against because he wanted the incoming Commission to take this up and leave it to them. He is from coastal Melbourne. I am at least happy to say that my Commissioner, who I rattled off an email to several days before the meeting, voted in favor of the motion, as did the two Commissioners from northern Brevard.

 

[Anderson]

In the long run, there will probably end up being a stop south of Cocoa somewhere whether the local government wants it or not. I honestly cannot see a passenger train running through about 130 miles (West Palm Beach to Cocoa is 136 miles per Google Maps) of respectably built-up area without stopping. I'd be shocked if AAF wouldn't be leaving upwards of a million trips on the table with that. My best guess is that you'll eventually see 2-4 stops along that line...but not all trains will make all stops.

Port Canaveral is going to be interesting. There, my best guess is that they'll extend in about the same time they start extending out west towards Disney. Considering that Disney was more than happy to get on board with the bullet train supplanting the "Magical Express" bus service last time around, I'm sure that AAF will be able to work something out with them.

 

[CHamilton]

Officials want South Florida to break off into its own state

 

[jis]

Yup, just like Vermont every so often passes a resolution to secede from the US too.

 

[CHamilton]

GE delivering Florida East Coast Railway [freight] locos

USA: Florida East Coast Railway is about to take delivery of the first of 24 GE Transportation ES44C4 locomotives which it ordered in January.

All of the Tier 3 compliant Evolution Series locomotives are scheduled to arrive in Florida by the end of the year. The four-motored locomotives will be used to haul intermodal, wagonload, automotive and port freight traffic on the railway's 560 km Jacksonville – Miami main line.

 

[jis]

You may wish to be somewhat entertained by this.... Why This Treasure Coast Mom Wants To Stop ‘All Aboard Florida’ Dead In Its Tracks

Specially some of the comments are priceless.

It looks like St. Lucie and Martin County are going out on a limb to oppose. Indian River is sitting on the fence though on the whole slightly opposed is my impression, and Brevard has been generally supportive, specially the north two thirds of it. The breakdown between supporters and opponents basically lines up pretty squarely between urban and suburban supporting and relatively rural population opposing. Also the ones that are least likely to eventually get stations seem to be more opposed at this point. Although St. Lucie and Vero Beach surprise me a bit. Jupiter is a bunch of spoiled brats and I'd expect nothing less from them, somewhat like the nuisance that we have seen in the Connecticut Shore Line up north.

 

[jphjaxfl]

That lady is still clueless in her understanding of passenger rail operations. Its something new so she doesn't want it. It's a plus for the future of South and Central Florida. If it is successful, it will benefit the entire state.

 

[afigg]

You may wish to be somewhat entertained by this.... Why This Treasure Coast Mom Wants To Stop ‘All Aboard Florida’ Dead In Its Tracks

Specially some of the comments are priceless.

I was fully entertained by the article and especially the comments. I wonder if the "Treasure Coast Mom" has ever taken a passenger train in her life. Be it intercity, regional rail, commuter, even a metro or subway train?