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AAF does not have to adhere to a strict "Buy America" requirement. Siemens can build the AAF units with available parts brought in Europe as needed, while the state order will need the more value content manufactured here. The AAF order can be produced while domestic production of content is ramped up for the federally funded order.

A benefit for the state order is that the compliance testing of the design can be done with prototypes for AAF. Once the design is proven, the AAF units can be produced, then the state units should be able to simply roll off the line without any further ado.
 
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I wonder if high platform will turn out to be a good idea if they want to share tracks with Tri Rail.
FEC and Tri-Rail plan to share tracks, but not platforms. THE HSR station is going to be separate from the commuter station with separate platforms for each.
From what i understand the joint planning between AAF and Siemens pre-dates the FRA order for Chargers. So the schedules and resources and timelines for delivering at least part of the AAF order before the FRA order is already accounted for. For just running the Miami - West Palm service AAF does not need the full complement of ten consists. Basically they could start hourly service easily with 4 consists perhaps with one additional spare - so 8 to 10 locos is all that they would need by 2016. The rest is going to be needed most likely after 2017.

Besides it is not like Siemens is capable of producing only one locomotive at a time serially.

Amtrak can still share the platform, just sayin.
 
The equipment that the Silvers use would be able to use the high level platforms, as they do on the NEC. It's Tri-Rail that's gonna be stuck. Not sure what they'll do in WPB and Fort Lauderdale when the Coastal project gets up and running.
 
So the coaches will be new, something not seen in the states before. Single level too, or did they say?

For some reason, the link to Siemens web page will not post here, but go to their mobility site and one can see Siemens sell non DMU passenger cars
Yes, the cars will be single level. On the Siemens AAF announcement page, there are links to:

Intercity Passenger Coach Data Sheet (1 page PDF)

Charger Diesel-Electric Locomotive Data Sheet (2 page PDF)

The coach car will seat 66, first class car 50 seats. The car floor height is 51", car length 85', width 10'6", height 14'. So the passenger cars will match high level platforms in use on the NEC and are presumably compliant with the NEC clearance envelope. Also fully compliant with FRA requirements and Buy America rules. The basic specs match the Next Gen Single Level coach car dimensions, which I think we can all agree is not an accident. Siemens is after bigger game than just the AAF order.
Siemens is going very aggressively into the north american passenger rail market, which IMO is a good thing. But this sure sounds like a potential Amfleet replacement. Maybe even a commuter rail replacement.
 
I don't know, there was a well-written analysis on another forum that basically boiled down to: "the only single-level market left is Amtrak."

NJT wants to go all multi-level even for their EMUs, LIRR abandoned non-EMU single-levels years ago, Metro North has mentioned multi-levels as their next non-EMU purchase, MARC is going multi-level, MBTA is going multi-level, Shoreline East is unknown, but they seem happy with what they have or will use EMUs and aren't capacity-constrained anyways. All the other commuter rail operators use either Gallery cars (Metra, Caltrain, VRE, etc.) or some full-size BiLevel (Metrolink, Tri-Rail, Caltrain too, etc.). So I don't think there's much market left for single-level commuter cars, and any that exists can probably survive on the second-hand single-levels being retired by the existing systems.
 
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I wonder if high platform will turn out to be a good idea if they want to share tracks with Tri Rail.
FEC and Tri-Rail plan to share tracks, but not platforms. THE HSR station is going to be separate from the commuter station with separate platforms for each.
I'm still not convinced this is a good idea though. Having separate platforms may have certain operational advantages, but assuming there will never be a need to use the platform of the other system is to build in a level of incompatibility to a new system - a compatibility that mature systems are very much regretting and working toward ironing out.
 
I don't know, there was a well-written analysis on another forum that basically boiled down to: "the only single-level market left is Amtrak."

NJT wants to go all multi-level even for their EMUs, LIRR abandoned non-EMU single-levels years ago, Metro North has mentioned multi-levels as their next non-EMU purchase, MARC is going multi-level, MBTA is going multi-level, Shoreline East is unknown, but they seem happy with what they have or will use EMUs and aren't capacity-constrained anyways. All the other commuter rail operators use either Gallery cars (Metra, Caltrain, VRE, etc.) or some full-size BiLevel (Metrolink, Tri-Rail, Caltrain too, etc.). So I don't think there's much market left for single-level commuter cars, and any that exists can probably survive on the second-hand single-levels being retired by the existing systems.
what about South Shore?

I also think the whole single level vs double level thing is ultimately a question of fashion. Fashions swing and one thing is popular for a decade or two and then it swings back and the other thing is in demand again.
 
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I wonder if high platform will turn out to be a good idea if they want to share tracks with Tri Rail.
FEC and Tri-Rail plan to share tracks, but not platforms. THE HSR station is going to be separate from the commuter station with separate platforms for each.
I'm still not convinced this is a good idea though. Having separate platforms may have certain operational advantages, but assuming there will never be a need to use the platform of the other system is to build in a level of incompatibility to a new system - a compatibility that mature systems are very much regretting and working toward ironing out.
I was just stating a fact. Not an opinion about whether it is good or bad or indifferent. The point stilkl remains that sharing tracks and sharing platforms are two different issues, with pros and cons regarding sharing platforms or not.
 
I was just stating a fact. Not an opinion about whether it is good or bad or indifferent. The point stilkl remains that sharing tracks and sharing platforms are two different issues, with pros and cons regarding sharing platforms or not.
I wasn't criticizing you. I was questioning the logic behind the decision.

But it's AAF's money. Let them spend it as they wish.
 
Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.
 
Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.
Doesn't the TGV Duplex meet the height requirements for New York?
 
(1) Every time I see a "FONSI" I keep expecting Henry Winkler to stomp his foot and turn on a jukebox.

(2) 3,470,800 is the projected 2019 ridership in the base case. That is not far off of what I recall us eyeballing the projections they had to be making as some time ago. Of interest is that the Orlando-South Florida market (1,526,300) only comes in at about 44% of the total. The intra-South Florida market's ridership (1,944,500) puts about 170 passengers on your "average" train, assuming 16x daily trains in each direction. I don't know if this is quite enough to justify the service within South Florida entirely on its own, but I suspect there's a case for eating some losses here in the first few years to cultivate the market. Adding the additional 130 passengers/train going between Orlando and South Florida puts you at close to 300/train...which should be more than enough for the train to pay for itself and then some (this level of ridership is, for example, consistent with the Lynchburger).

(3) More fun with data in the "Ridership and Revenue Study Summary" (which makes no mention of revenue in the summary): https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L15932

-The "Business Plan Case", covering some marketing efforts and, more importantly, taking into account connectivity effects in South Florida. This adds about a half-million long-distance riders as well as a small bump for ridership within South Florida. Total ridership here comes to 4,013,000 (2,010,900 short-distance and 2,002,100 long-distance).

-The "Management Case", which takes into account a bunch of stuff that AAF's management is looking at doing; to quote the study (emphasis mine):

The Business Plan Case does not include the impact of certain strategies that are commonly employed by management of similar consumer-oriented rail operating companies and that could potentially further increase ridership and/or revenue such as (i) revenue yield management strategies; (ii) frequent rider loyalty programs; (iii) block ticket agreements with resorts and educational institutions; and (iv) plans for further local transit connections not known at the time of preparation of the Business Plan Case forecast....

Management Case estimates are presented herein to illustrate AAF management’s expectation for the operation of passenger service.
These numbers came to 2,671,556 short-distance; 2,434,300 long-distance; 5,105,856 total. That would put average per-train ridership at 208 LD, 229 SD, and therefore about 437 total. Obviously there's some turnover implied, but assuming 400-ish seats per train (an average ridership that high borders on impossible).

--Also of interest is that post-ramp-up, ridership is expected to keep growing in line with the market. This makes sense (and the rates make sense as well), though the 2030 ridership projection under the Business Case scenario comes in at 5.45m/yr (which translates back down into 467/train). Kicking this growth over to the Management Case spits out just under seven million riders per year (6.95m, to be exact), or almost 600 riders per train (at which point I think we can safely say "this is impossible under proposed service levels).

The way I read this, AAF is expecting to need to grab additional equipment down the line in some form (either running longer trains or more trains). Per the EIS, a 20% increase in frequency (i.e. 3 extra trains per day for the first iteration, for 19; 4 for the second, for 23; 4 for the third iteration, for 27; 5 for the fourth iteration, for 32) would likely trigger a 5.4% bump in ridership. Iterating this out, 23 trains/day yields 7.72m/yr (or 460/train) while 32/day yields 8.58m (or 367/train).

I draw out 23/day (as a proxy for 24/day) and 32/day because those zoom in on AAF's demands for Tri-Rail service planning. Following the logic of the Management Case (and to a lesser extent the Business Case), by 2030 AAF very much does not expect to be able to accommodate demand on 16x daily trains. 24x daily hits an assumption that some of the additional trains would be planned either to run up to Jacksonville and/or serve additional destinations along the coast or would accommodate demand from a Tampa extension. 32x daily just assumes that all of the added trains get thrown in to deal with traffic on the existing corridor.

Anyhow, I'm done for now...but the studies shed a lot of light on some of the behind-the-scenes aspects we'd been seeing. Then again, a lot of this isn't telling us anything new...it's just spelling out what a lot of us already twigged.
 
Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.
Doesn't the TGV Duplex meet the height requirements for New York?
Yes, and the interior height of each level is less than that in a superliner, much less. They could not make them any taller and fit the European loading gauge. With a quick look I did not find the interior dimensions, however this can be noted: TGV duplex is 4320 mm high = 14'-2". The Superliner is 16'-2" high. Most of that additional 2 feet would be in interior height. Another way to put it, the duplex has to have interior ceiling heights under 7 feet, probably well under 7 feet, somewhere between 6'-3" and 6'-6" would be my guess, while the Superliner would have at least 7 feet, possible some more.
 
Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.
Doesn't the TGV Duplex meet the height requirements for New York?
Yes, and the interior height of each level is less than that in a superliner, much less. They could not make them any taller and fit the European loading gauge. With a quick look I did not find the interior dimensions, however this can be noted: TGV duplex is 4320 mm high = 14'-2". The Superliner is 16'-2" high. Most of that additional 2 feet would be in interior height. Another way to put it, the duplex has to have interior ceiling heights under 7 feet, probably well under 7 feet, somewhere between 6'-3" and 6'-6" would be my guess, while the Superliner would have at least 7 feet, possible some more.
When I travel on the TGV Duplex I always try a get a first calss ticket as I find those trains very cramped in second class. Quite in contrast to Corail cars which are very comfortable and spacious in second class.
 
Another factor which stood out in the EIS is the freight speed improvement. I'm not sure how this translates into cost savings or capacity, but there seems to be an average increase in freight speeds of about 15-20% (basically from the low/mid 30s to around 40 MPH overall) on about 180 miles of track (Cocoa to southern Broward) and a slight decline within Miami-Dade indicated (even though the "change in speed" number disagrees with the projected speed averages). It looks like FEC's freight business won't do too badly with this service.

Also as a minor disagreement...the last MCO-bound train arrives at 0010 (departing MIA at 2100) while the last MIA-bound train arrives at 2310 (departing MCO at 2000). If the start of service is 15 hours earlier this suggests that the first train will leave MIA at 0600, not 0500 (though MCO would have an 0500 departure for MIA).
 
PS: Being aware that this is a thread about the upcoming FEC passenger rail service, still the previous posts were already about New York and bi-level services, so now this post is off-topic as well. :)

Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.
Doesn't the TGV Duplex meet the height requirements for New York?
Yes, and the interior height of each level is less than that in a superliner, much less. They could not make them any taller and fit the European loading gauge. With a quick look I did not find the interior dimensions, however this can be noted: TGV duplex is 4320 mm high = 14'-2". The Superliner is 16'-2" high. Most of that additional 2 feet would be in interior height. Another way to put it, the duplex has to have interior ceiling heights under 7 feet, probably well under 7 feet, somewhere between 6'-3" and 6'-6" would be my guess, while the Superliner would have at least 7 feet, possible some more.
To some, it might seem like it's good to read that bi-level cars would fit into New York City loading gauges and that tall passengers would not have to be prohibited, as they are also not prohibited on current TGV Duplex trainsets. The national railway company of France, SNCF, before ordering any TGV Duplex trainsets, carried out intensive tests to see if using bi-level cars in high-speed service would be accepted by passengers, having a similar interior ceiling height of 194cm (so a little more than 6 feet 4 inches) that lots and lots of existing bi-level cars in regional or inter-city services in Europe already have. As they did that, the result was they received positive feedback from customers. Many might think, this is important as well, offering customers an attractive exterior and interior design, so some might think SNCF was wise, to conduct tests beforehand.

When I travel on the TGV Duplex I always try a get a first calss ticket as I find those trains very cramped in second class. Quite in contrast to Corail cars which are very comfortable and spacious in second class.
Many might be surprised to hear "on the TGV Duplex" 2nd class is "very cramped", given that the TGV Duplex trainsets are popular with passengers and offer better comfort than many competing forms of travel, and that the seat pitch of 92cm in 2nd class is considered very generous by many. After all, that's more than 36 inches, and competing forms of travel are likely to offer much less.

While AirFrance still has 32 inch seating in economy (and in business as well, on French domestic flights, while even never more than 33 inches in business on intra-European services), AirFrance's subsidiary HOP! for domestic flights even just offers 31 inches. Then, the low-fare Transavia subsidiary that AirFrance wants to expand (also cause for the recent AirFrance pilot strikes), has as little as 29 inches of seat pitch.

In comparison, Southwest and JetBlue offer 32 inches in economy (with the "Even More Space" seats featuring 36 inches), while most US legacy airlines offer 31 or 30 inches, and while US low-fare airline Spirit just offers 28 inches of seat pitch to its customers. So even some of the Corail cars that just had a seat pitch of 87 cm (about 34 inches) should be more comfortable than that.

So it seems like no matter what one compares it to, the TGV duplex 2nd class seating might not seem to be too cramped to many, while of course the 95 cm (so more than 37 inches) of TGV duplex 1st class might be something not even offered on many competing transportation services.

To some, it might seem like a dream: dedicated high-speed rail infrastructure in the Northeast, and TGV Duplex or other modern, comfortable high-speed rail trainsets like them connecting New York City in 96 minutes with Boston or Washington D.C. respectively, and with even faster connections to Philadelphia, Baltimore, Providence and other cities in New England. Some might think it's fortunate though, that there are the US High Speed Rail Association lead by Mr. Andy Kunz, and other organizations who are advocating for this kind of service, to try to turn the vision into a reality, not only because of the benefits it would bring to all the future riders, but also because of the economic development it would bring and thus because of all the benefits to the whole country.
 
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Another factor which stood out in the EIS is the freight speed improvement. I'm not sure how this translates into cost savings or capacity, but there seems to be an average increase in freight speeds of about 15-20% (basically from the low/mid 30s to around 40 MPH overall) on about 180 miles of track (Cocoa to southern Broward) and a slight decline within Miami-Dade indicated (even though the "change in speed" number disagrees with the projected speed averages). It looks like FEC's freight business won't do too badly with this service.
Although the advantages of that may be partly if not wholly offset by freights having to be put "in the hole" to allow passenger trains to pass.
 
Many might think that the upcoming All Aboard Florida passenger rail service will be a great new asset to the state of Florida. At the same time, some might be concerned because of a recent press report in Florida Today about the draft environmental impact statement by the Federal Railroad Administration, claiming that "All Aboard Florida expects to [...] build a single track between Cocoa and Orlando International Airport and start full service in 2017" (emphasis added).
 
Compared to accommodations on Amtrak trains TGV Duplex 2nd Class is indeed quite cramped. Been there done that.

Since the distance between Cocoa and Orlando Airport is covered in much less than half an hour and for the next decade or more the projected traffic is one train each way per hour, this is not of immediate concern. Eventually if they want to go higher than that they will have to construct a long passing siding somewhere in the middle. but at present it is impossible to justify building a double track railroad, specially when one has to spend ones own money to do so. The current EIS is for what is to be built currently and not for all future eventualities. However, as long as nothing precludes adding a second track in significant parts of the ROW we are good for now.
 
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