Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[cirdan]

In the late 19th century on into the early 20th, early suburban communities were developed with the developer building a streetcar line to entice the sale of the houses. Once that was accomplished, the streetcar system was sold to another party, or turned over to the city as part of their transit system. I wonder if we are seeing a 21st century variation of that? I, for one, hope not. I would like to see this flourish as a private entity. That way, it would not end up as Florida's Amtrak: A ward of the state with meddling politicians.

If it means the state gets the present of a well built and modern rail system serving a real purpose, then surely that is better for the state than having the state build the same with its own money, especially taking into account the states ability to turn such things into pork barrel spending, waste and inefficiency.

Many private sector products will by law full into state hands after a certain number of years. For example it was written into the Channel Tunnel's statute from day one that after something like 80 years it will be given to the state. That gives the private sector sufficient time to recover its costs (well, maybe the Channel Tunnel is a big example here) whil in the longer term the state isn't losing its silver.

 

[jis]

http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/06/10/all-aboard-florida-martin-indian-river-counties-lose-battle-to-block-bonds/

https://cmgpbprealtime.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/allaboarddecision.pdf

Still reading the article, but per the headline it looks like the two counties got laughed out of court on standing grounds (i.e. they couldn't even show that they really had grounds to sue).

Yup, they basically got laughed out of court.
In other good news, Rep Posey's (R-Florida) anti-AAF amendments to the THUD bill failed miserably thus clearing another hurdle for AAF. The Treasure Coast NIMBY's are livid, but it has not occurred to those morons yet that it is their money they are pissing away based on their decisions, so they have no one else to blame.

Posey incidentally has a 100% record of always voting against Amtrak and passenger rail. He is a poster child of the Tea Party. And incidentally he represents the constituency that I am in.

 

[Anderson]

http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/06/10/all-aboard-florida-martin-indian-river-counties-lose-battle-to-block-bonds/

https://cmgpbprealtime.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/allaboarddecision.pdf

Still reading the article, but per the headline it looks like the two counties got laughed out of court on standing grounds (i.e. they couldn't even show that they really had grounds to sue).

Yup, they basically got laughed out of court.

In other good news, Rep Posey's (R-Florida) anti-AAF amendments to the THUD bill failed miserably thus clearing another hurdle for AAF. The Treasure Coast NIMBY's are livid, but it has not occurred to those morons yet that it is their money they are pissing away based on their decisions, so they have no one else to blame.

Posey incidentally has a 100% record of always voting against Amtrak and passenger rail. he is a poster child of the Tea baggeres. And incidentally he represents the constituency that I am in. :

You know, I can get Rep. Poser voting against Amtrak...but with a lot of those guys my patience is running a little thin over AAF given that it is a private sector project.

With a little bit of luck these guys will seethe and, once the project is finished, they'll finish kvetching and start asking for stations. I kind of want to see AAF's reaction then...Cocoa notwithstanding (and then mainly for transfer value) there's a part of me that would like to see a "Georgetown approach" to them while another part just wants to see everyone get train service as a way of dealing with this sort of problem in the longer run.

 

[Brian_tampa]

It looks like the opponents actually plan to appeal! CATT or citizens against the train, had this to say:

All Aboard Florida officials said they were very pleased by the judges decision while Phyllis Frey from Citizens Against the Train (CATT) fired back with, We will appeal.

http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/federal-judge-shoots-down-challenge-all-aboard-florida-bonds

on what basis will they appeal? Well, an article in the TC Palm website gives a hint. Opposition lawyer Stephen Ryan says he will be searching for more evidence to prove that AAF really needs the PABs to complete the project. I thought that was his job leading up to this first lawsuit? I guess he has to say something in order to suck more money out of the taxpayers. LOL

They are also hinting that they will sue the FDFC or State of Florida by claiming the board members appointed by Gov Scott are not in good standing, meaning the decisions they make on AAF can be overturned. This lawyer is a typical, well, lawyer. He promises he can do big things then it turns out he is more of a marketing genius than actual railroad lawyer. I hope they continue to sue and fight so that AAF can countersue for millions in damages. That way the taxpayers of Martin and Indian River counties will directly be impacted. They deserve nothing less in my mind.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

In the meanwhile, construction has begun on the Miami Central Station.

 

[user 1215]

Posey...is a poster child of the Tea baggers.

I find that statement rather offensive. I have Tea Party ideals, but the term Tea bagger is a very vulgar term. Even outside of the vulgar context, I don't think that 100% voting record against rail is a Tea Party ideal. We generally look to reduce the amount of interference government imposes on private enterprise so that it is private ownership that takes the risk and realizes the gain or loss from their endeavor, rather than continuously take private money and sink it into something that [relatively] few people benefit from. To that definition, your representative is not a Tea Party wonk, but rather what we conservatives call an "establishment Republican".

A conservative Republican should be cheering on AAF.

In other news the Long Beach Post is reporting a crying nimby who wants to have his own stake in the matter:

“As a landowner living close to the Florida East Coast Railway, the same site that All Aboard Florida trains would use, he believes that his property will lose substantial value due to the many, noisy high-speed passenger trains moving on these tracks, the danger that they will create at the many two-lane graded crossings that (he) must use to get to the nearby town and cities as well as the major highways, the road gridlock that will result and the life-threatening harm that will follow will slower response times by emergency personnel and vehicles,” the motion said.

The same arguments - Land prices dropping (they typically don't), gridlock (often shorter times than a red light), life-threatening harm (what if the ambulance comes by when a pre-existing, slower, longer freight is coming through?) SAME exact arguments. Same exact crap.

Aren't these attorneys paid enough to know when one set of arguments get laughed out of court that perhaps a different strategy is necessary?

 

[Ryan]

But alas, they are not as the core philosophy of Republicans of all stripes (Tea or establishment) seems to be "oppose vigorously anything supported by a Democrat. Perhaps best expressed by Sen McConnell's "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." in November of 2010.

I'd love for the Republican party to return to a more sane "The single most important thing we want to achieve is to make America the greatest nation that it could be".

I'm not hopeful, given the clown car of idiots lining up for 2016.

 

[Anderson]

A lawyer is paid for two things. The first is for his advice and the second is, within certain limits, to do as he is instructed. I have little doubt that advice has been offered to these folks that their chances of success are slim...but at their direction, their counsel has come up with a theory (or set of theories) to toss at a court.

Frankly, I suspect that if counsel is being honest with itself they know this is likely to go nowhere...but I'm reminded of the fact that some US Attorney a few months back was stuck arguing that an elderly nun somehow represented a "grave threat to national security" (she had been involved in a "raid" on Oak Ridge, IIRC, which involved painting graffiti on the walls, chipping a bit of cement, and offering brownies to the guards who showed up an hour or so into the incursion; IIRC the greatest threat to security was that they showed that the facility's security was inept)...and there are plenty of cases where lawyers are stuck offering risible arguments over "grave and irreparable harms" to meet the standards of various laws.

To put it another way, lawyers can be paid very good money to give sound advice and then not follow it.

 

[user 1215]

The situation with the nun had more to do with the fact that she broke through security lapses that otherwise terrorists could have severely exploited. So, yes, they got her on trespass, but I don't think anyone thinks she was a threat to national security, rather the holes in security were a huge threat to national security.

In other non-relevant news, I discovered an abandoned planned community this weekend while out driving. One of the streets is named "Nimby Rd".

Sheesh.

 

[Bob Dylan]

NIMBY Road! That's excellent, every city needs one of those!

They kept Austin from expanding its light Rail by teaming up with the Asphalt and Toll Road Lobby, but meanwhile the traffic grows worse as the developers rape the town!!

 

[Anderson]

The situation with the nun had more to do with the fact that she broke through security lapses that otherwise terrorists could have severely exploited. So, yes, they got her on trespass, but I don't think anyone thinks she was a threat to national security, rather the holes in security were a huge threat to national security.

In other non-relevant news, I discovered an abandoned planned community this weekend while out driving. One of the streets is named "Nimby Rd".

Sheesh.

(The way it came across was that they threw charges at her because they were embarrassed at what she was able to do)

And...I love that. Nimby Rd. indeed!

 

[user 1215]

Again, that development was abandoned in a very nice, posh, gated golf community. I guess the nimby's didn't even want a NEIGHBORHOOD there!

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Looks like the maintenance facility will be at Orlando International Airport.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2015/06/all-aboard-florida-chooses-train-maintenance-firm.html?ana=e_orl_bn_newsalert&u=le1O48c4zijx0ETR5Sf%2Fng0d04608e&t=1435687378

 

[jis]

The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.

 

[rrdude]

Looks like the maintenance facility will be at Orlando International Airport.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2015/06/all-aboard-florida-chooses-train-maintenance-firm.html?ana=e_orl_bn_newsalert&u=le1O48c4zijx0ETR5Sf%2Fng0d04608e&t=1435687378

I swear, sometimes I actually get butterflies in my stomach when I'm reading about AAF. Then I have to remind myself, it could still get killed.

I think it won't, and THAT will be a great day. An even BETTER DAY if they can turn a profit, any how they can. Land, leases, services, even hauling passengers.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Looks like the maintenance facility will be at Orlando International Airport.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2015/06/all-aboard-florida-chooses-train-maintenance-firm.html?ana=e_orl_bn_newsalert&u=le1O48c4zijx0ETR5Sf%2Fng0d04608e&t=1435687378

I swear, sometimes I actually get butterflies in my stomach when I'm reading about AAF. Then I have to remind myself, it could still get killed.

I think it won't, and THAT will be a great day. An even BETTER DAY if they can turn a profit, any how they can. Land, leases, services, even hauling passengers.

I keep in mind that the project is already under construction. There isn't much that those NIMBYs can do about it. That's why I'm really not worried about AAF. I'm moreover concerned with how Lynx and Sunrail will handle the increase in passengers, once AAF is fully operational by 2017.

The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.

This is going to be interesting. If the cars turn out to be a success with AAF, Amtrak could potentially order them. They may even discontinue the Viewliner line entirely, if they're happy with the Viaggio Comfort Cars.

 

[cirdan]

The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.

You have to bear in mind that in Europe the tracks are mostly maintained to a smoother standard then in the USA. So if you are experiencing a smoother ride there it may not necessarily be down to the car you're riding in. I understand AAF track will essentially be of a high standard, but when it comes to Amtrak I don't think this can be seen as a given. I would be careful making any predictions until such cars have actually been tested under real world conditions.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.

You have to bear in mind that in Europe the tracks are mostly maintained to a smoother standard then in the USA. So if you are experiencing a smoother ride there it may not necessarily be down to the car you're riding in. I understand AAF track will essentially be of a high standard, but when it comes to Amtrak I don't think this can be seen as a given. I would be careful making any predictions until such cars have actually been tested under real world conditions.

With all due respect, shouldn't all railroads outside of Amtrak be maintaining their tracks up to high standards anyway? Preventing accidents from happening is important after all. We can agree that when a freight train derails, the railroad in question loses money on whatever was damaged or destroyed in the accident.

 

[xyzzy]

With all due respect, shouldn't all railroads outside of Amtrak be maintaining their tracks up to high standards anyway? Preventing accidents from happening is important after all. We can agree that when a freight train derails, the railroad in question loses money on whatever was damaged or destroyed in the accident.

The simple answer is, No. First, there are many things that cause freight trains to derail. Track faults are only one reason and probably not the major one. Derailments happen on high-quality track, too. Second, as is the case for the Interstate highway system, the expense of maintenance is proportional to the standard of maintenance. In fact it's disproportionately expensive. Rail transportation is a fundamental input into the economic matrix of the nation. Over-maintained track is an economic hit for everyone.

The FRA system of track classification and speed limits (http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/track-classifications) has worked quite well since it was introduced ~40 years ago. The better question is, how diligent is enforcement of these standards.

 

[jis]

The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.

You have to bear in mind that in Europe the tracks are mostly maintained to a smoother standard then in the USA. So if you are experiencing a smoother ride there it may not necessarily be down to the car you're riding in. I understand AAF track will essentially be of a high standard, but when it comes to Amtrak I don't think this can be seen as a given. I would be careful making any predictions until such cars have actually been tested under real world conditions.

I was not considering ride quality of ride that much except in the context of speculating ride quality on similar tracks.. Even I understand that track has an impact on that. I was talking of general creature comfort, ambiance and simple things like sealed doors and corridors, large windows etc.

I would expect Amfleet Is to mostly operate on the NEC and its immediate vicinity. The replacement for Amfleet IIs would be the ones that would run all over the place. NE Regionals mostly run on at least as high quality tracks as AAF will ever have, so the track argument for cars that will mostly run on the NEC and related branches which mostly have relatively high quality track too, makes that argument somewhat irrelevant. but as I said that was a secondary consideration. Perhaps it is time to consider real higher speed train sets for NEC and decouple that from the cars that have the misfortune of having to run elsewhere.

Besides the ride quality of the current Amtrak cars on even good quality track as it stands is nothing to write home about. If we assume that excellent qua.ity track is equivalent to so so quality track in Europe, even then those cars come out ahead even in ride quality.

And whose making predictions? We are just discussing possibilities.

BTW, FRA track classification has more to do with safety than ride quality. For a good quality riding track it has to be maintained somewhat better than just meeting FRA requirements. That is unlikely to happen outside of the primarily passenger corridors.

 

[xyzzy]

As someone who rides European trains often, I want to point out that relatively few rail lines in Europe carry the daily weight of freight that many rail lines in the U.S. do. Most of the European high-speed lines carry no freight. Heavy freight (at the limit of axle loading) is very punishing to track components. Furthermore the primary routes of the U.S. railroads are longer in length than the primary routes of western European railroads, western Europe being what Americans generally think of when they refer to Europe.

I agree that Amfleet I/II ride quality is not great, but the designs of those cars reflect 1960s engineering.

 

[jis]

For Regionals we are talking only of NEC and its extensions where 170kph to 200kph is allowed. We are really not talking of high speed lines at all in the sense they are used in Europe. We are also not talking of lines away from the Northeast which are limited to 125-130kph. The Viaggios are really not designed for high speed line operations. They are for standard European main line, many of which allow speeds upto 200kph or a little higher.

Yes US has a heavy axle loading problem not only with freights but even surprisingly, with their passenger diesels - witness the MPI36s for example, not to mention the ALP45-DPs. Consequently, my expectations of getting passenger service in the US with the smoothness of ride experienced in Europe is slim to none, even on the NEC.

Having said all that, we are yet to see what tweaks Siemens will have to or choose to make to Viaggios to adapt them to US conditions. Afterall even FEC carries plenty of freight on the lines (at 100 to 110kph) on which the AAF trains will run (limited to about 170kph). AAF will run at 200kph only on dedicated track with no freight. So we will know for sure how these cars work out in American conditions once they get deployed on AAF, and then we can extrapolate from that. Until then it is all speculation and random what if questions that are fun to discuss in forums like this.

 

[cirdan]

I was talking of general creature comfort, ambiance and simple things like sealed doors and corridors, large windows etc..

Maybe things like window sizes are dictated by the platform, but most of the other ambiance and comfort criteria are not dicacted by the manufacturer or platform but by the customer's specs and wishes. It's the customer who can decide whether they want something spacious and tasteful or something cheap and ugly. And this in turn may be dictated by the type of service the car is intended for. You wouldn't expect the same creature comforts on a glorified commuter train than you would on an LD trip.

 

[jis]

I have not taken any LD trip in Europe recently though. They were all glorified commuter trips, even the ICE ones, and they are mostly presented as such. But notwithstanding that they have generally better creature comforts than Amtrak's glorified commuter trips (read NEC Regionals). Although in general Amtrak seats are probably better in many cases, specially compared to open carriages, as opposed to compartmentalized carriages. Of course Amtrak does not have the latter as an option at all.

 

[xyzzy]

I agree that axle loads on U.S. passenger locomotives are high. At the other end, U.K. passenger locomotives have a terrible time in the autumn when wet leaves fall on tracks.

But most of the damage to tracks is caused not by locomotives but the repetitive pounding from heavy freight cars, e.g. 120-car coal trains at 130 gross tons per car.