Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Brian_tampa]

When flying into the USA from a destination abroad (as I assume most of the airlines on your list are doing), unless I am mistaken, the procedure is that you collect your baggage at the first US airport you arrive, take it through customs and then re-check it. There would thus be no need for AAF to transfer checked baggage to or from airlines.

I really don't follow your line of reasoning here. I'm no expert on luggage processing but I've seen a lot of what works and what doesn't over the years and I feel I have a good understanding of where the divisions occur.

Yeah, I don't quite understand the point being made either. Actually, the airlines do the transfer of bags from just outside of the C&I checkpoint to the plane. There is a bag dropoff area, which is nothing like checking the bag in. They taker the bag, scan the tag and send it on its way. No checkin required. I do this multiple times a year in Newark both Terminals B and C. After dropping off the checked bag at the C&I checkpoint you proceed to whatever gate your flight is at with just your hand baggage, so the distance you have to drag your checked bag is just from the bag belt to the dropoff point, through the Customs checkpoint. This incidentally is standard procedure in many countries (and Schengen which is not quite a country) at the first port of entry, not just the US, as long as the subsequent flight is an domestic flight.
A person arriving by United whether it be international or domestic into Newark and connecting to an Amtrak code share basically has to reclaim their bags and then drag it up the escalators or elevators to the AirTrain, drag it into the AirTrain, go to the NEC station, drag it from the AirTrain to the Amtrak train and then find a place for the bags in usually what is an overcrowded train where you often have to walk through multiple cars to even find a seat (remember, Amtrak does not reserve assigned seats unlike say DB out of Frankfurt). It is a wholly unattractive and borderline painful experience. Given a choice between Amtrak code share and a puddle jumper to Philly, I know many choose the puddle jumper, even though that is also not the best of experiences. But at least the airline will handle your baggage for you all the way. The train connection is a worse experience.

For this reason, I believe as long as AAF does not provide checked baggage, many of the MCO - MIA flights will continue as is, perhaps downsized a bit. But they will not just disappear. If AAF provides European style assigned seat reservation, that will mitigate the pain quite a bit and will tilt thing a bit in favor of AAF, since you at least know precisely where you need to drag the bag to.

@jis
They will provide assigned seating. There was mention a long while ago from AAF that digital displays will be on the platforms to show where to line up for each train car.

Edit: I found two references online saying that AAF will indeed provide checked luggage on board. Between this and the Orlando intermodal station having baggage check-in counters for air travelers, I would suspect that AAF could code share with airlines if they can come to an agreement.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2014/08/details-revealed-about-all-aboard-florida-jobs.html

From the article:

Crew members with a strong hospitality background will be needed to help enhance the guest experience, as well as work on the train in positions ranging from luggage handling to dining car service.

http://palmbeachcivic.org/news/top-stories/1320-civic-association-directors-meet-with-all-aboard-florida-president-michael-reininger

From the article:

Amenities

These will be state-of-the-art trains, said Mr. Reininger. Think the new private Italian train line, not what we are used to here. From the All Aboard Florida website:

Dynamic WiFi: All Aboard Florida has invested into a beefed-up, high-bandwidth signal that it owns along the route, so passengers will have no problems doing work, playing games or listening to music during their ride.

Cafe car/bar car: During the three-hour ride, of course you might get hungry or thirsty, so youll have the option of visiting the dining car for a snack or the bar car for a drink with friends. All Aboard Florida also is looking into apps that would allow you to order your beverage or snack to be delivered to your seat on the train.

Seating configuration: Whether traveling with family, friends or alone on a business trip, riders can choose the type of seating configuration best suited for their party when booking tickets online. Each train will fit up to 400 passengers, and seats will be the same or larger than first-class airline seats. And you can check your luggage on the train, too.

Fully ADA-compliant: Along with wide aisles, the trains also will have level boarding with no steps, which will allow for wheelchairs, scooters and bikes to be able to wheel directly onto the train.

Edit: I like the possibility to order food or drinks from your phone while riding! That would be so cool! No need to get up and wait in a line in the cafe car. Wow this will be impressive service!

 

[VentureForth]

I'm still completely befuddled why they are putting the Orlando terminal at MCO. The entire beauty of taking the train to New York is stepping out on 34th street, not at JFK's terminal. If I wanted to go to JFK, I'd fly.

Orlando airport has LOUSY public transportation. One (or two?) busses that service the NE portion of the city, and don't even connect to the major theme parks. For those, you take Mears at a hefty premium. Or even a cab has to charge extra from departing from the airport.

If I want to go to Miami, I'd fly to Miami - not MCO then take the train for another three hours.

If I live in Orlando, do I drive to the airport and pay their expensive parking to take a three hour trip to Miami?

Lots of this just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it'll all work out in the end. The Miami terminal makes sense to me - just not MCO.

 

[Ryan]

Rental cars and hotel shuttles.

 

[Anderson]

Ideally if the code share worked truly seamlessly in Newark, Continental and now United should have been able to dispense with the need for deploying any of its own equipment for connecting to anywhere on the NEC reachable with a train ride of 3 hours or less. but that did not come to pass.

I doubt it would have gotten that far (the direct market into Washington would have survived, if nothing else, and I can't say where they were elsewhere on the JFK/LGA map), but I agree that a paring back would likely have happened.

As noted...I'm not sure how they're planning to do it, but the mention of checking luggage (but no baggage car) raises questions. Still, as noted, there are plenty of cases of folks checking a bag mainly because airlines have reeled back on the allowable "hand luggage"/carry-on luggage limits rather substantially over the years (and/or the wacky security rules have struck).

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I'm still completely befuddled why they are putting the Orlando terminal at MCO. The entire beauty of taking the train to New York is stepping out on 34th street, not at JFK's terminal. If I wanted to go to JFK, I'd fly.

Orlando airport has LOUSY public transportation. One (or two?) busses that service the NE portion of the city, and don't even connect to the major theme parks. For those, you take Mears at a hefty premium. Or even a cab has to charge extra from departing from the airport.

If I want to go to Miami, I'd fly to Miami - not MCO then take the train for another three hours.

If I live in Orlando, do I drive to the airport and pay their expensive parking to take a three hour trip to Miami?

Lots of this just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it'll all work out in the end. The Miami terminal makes sense to me - just not MCO.

There are bus routes that do connect to theme parks from the airport. Link 42 services Florida Mall, Orlando Premium Outlets International Drive, Wet N Wild, and other places on I-Drive.

111 also services Florida Mall, before jumping on the 528 to head to Destination Parkway and Seaworld. Now moving aside from that, the airport being the terminus will be interesting. I think the Orlando station will be similar to the Newark Liberty International Airport station in New Jersey.

 

[jis]

In addition a dedicated monorail/Maglev connection is being built from the Orlando Airport Intermodal Center to I-Drive, and eventually SunRail will have a link to the same center. It is part of a huge plan, and does not just stand isolated by itself.

 

[Anderson]

In addition a dedicated monorail/Maglev connection is being built from the Orlando Airport Intermodal Center to I-Drive, and eventually SunRail will have a link to the same center. It is part of a huge plan, and does not just stand isolated by itself.

So the Maglev is actually happening. That's good to know; I know the plans had been on the table for a while but at the same time they were always a bit nebulous and seemed to be pushed by an oddball businessman IIRC.

Edit: To be clear, this would mean your transit options are as follows for major destinations:

Disney: Has their own system of buses from OIA to the parks and resorts.

I-Drive: Maglev to Convention Center, I-Drive Circulator, and/or hotel buses.

Downtown, Winter Park, etc.: SunRail (once the airport connector is finished).

Kissimmee: Possible SunRail-to-SunRail connection?

I suspect that at least some hotels will pull shuttles back from OIA and move them to Maglev stops for much of the day (it'll save them what can be a rather long trip from hotels not right around the airport).

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm still completely befuddled why they are putting the Orlando terminal at MCO. The entire beauty of taking the train to New York is stepping out on 34th street, not at JFK's terminal. If I wanted to go to JFK, I'd fly. Orlando airport has LOUSY public transportation. One (or two?) busses that service the NE portion of the city, and don't even connect to the major theme parks. For those, you take Mears at a hefty premium. Or even a cab has to charge extra from departing from the airport. If I want to go to Miami, I'd fly to Miami - not MCO then take the train for another three hours. If I live in Orlando, do I drive to the airport and pay their expensive parking to take a three hour trip to Miami? Lots of this just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it'll all work out in the end. The Miami terminal makes sense to me - just not MCO.

Orlando is a poorly zoned and largely unplanned soulless suburban amoeba typical of modern US cities. There is no 34th street equivalent and even if there was there is no method for pedestrians to move between attractions without assistance.

MCO may be a sad little airport that is disconnected from virtually everything and yet it can still make the most sense out of what's available to choose from. As already mentioned at MCO you have easy access to rentals and shuttles, which are the only solutions I've found for moving around Orlando at a reasonable speed. Orlando also had Uber last I checked but thanks to the taxi mafia that solution is unlikely to last. Although buses do run through Orlando they appear to exist primarily to serve people who work low paying jobs at the numerous theme parks and resorts. Trying to use the Orlando bus system as a tourist can be amazingly frustrating and time consuming, regardless of where you begin your journey.

Bottom line is that there is very little in the way of realistic alternatives that are likely to succeed in areas where MCO is likely to fail. Not to mention that actionable incentives for future solutions will remain strongest at MCO for the foreseeable future. Personally I've had my fill of Orlando. I've done the perpetually packed theme park thing, I've done the resort hotel thing, I've done the big business event thing, and I've tried to find the "real" Orlando in between. So far as I can tell what you see is what you'll get because there's little if anything to find beneath the tacky plaster surface.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Penny could probably give you the inside dope on the real Orlando Chris!

She's lived there a long time and stays,away from the tourist stuff!( and her Limo Service and Hi-Rise Condo are nice perks for visiting AUers! Orlando could work on their food choices though, Burger King is where she takes visitors!

And our New Jersey ex-pats that live in the area really like living in Florida, especially in the Winter!

Unfortunately Austin seems to be following the Orlando model, it brings to mind the old Country Song; " You'll Lose a Good Thing!"

 

[Ryan]

Burger King is where she takes visitors!

I didn't even get that!

 

[VentureForth]

In addition a dedicated monorail/Maglev connection is being built from the Orlando Airport Intermodal Center to I-Drive, and eventually SunRail will have a link to the same center. It is part of a huge plan, and does not just stand isolated by itself.

I'd like to see more info on this. Where is there info that the monorail is actually being built? I read an article in Orlando Business Journal, but it was vague. Details are sketchy but they expect to start construction in July and service in 2016? And, as of the April article, they haven't received their permits yet?
When I see an article about ground moving, I'll move from skeptic to supporter.

But this doesn't exactly look like Shanghai's maglev. Maybe a modern monorail using some maglev tech. And solar power in the event of a power failure? Why not just keep the batteries charged with real electricity while it's on?

A lot of this sounds like save the baby seal enthusiasm without a lot of reality. Forgive my skepticism; at least FEC owned the ROW where they plan to start and the trials for getting the rest have been expected and documented.

This looks more like a half baked plan to copy Las Vegas' failed (yet somehow still existing) monorail.

 

[jis]

I don't know when or if this specific one will get built. But it is what Orlando's master plan says. That's all. Eventually something will get built. This is Florida, so one cannot say anything about anything until it happens.

Devil's Advocate has already provided most of the reason why MCO makes more sense than anywhere else in Orlando. I suppose somewhere near Disney would have been another alternative but it would lack the other inter connectivity facilities already available and planned at MCO.

So that is the way it is. There is no alternate plan and there is no real plan to revisit this decision so carping about it at present is mostly whistling in the wind.

 

[Ryan]

Which is what AU can specialize in.

 

[xyzzy]

Lots of invective about Orlando. I have no connection to the city and haven't been there in five years. But I hear the same invective about sprawl and poor zoning from lots of people about other cities, too. Raleigh, for one, where I do live. The fact is, these cities are sprawling because (some) people do want to live there. Otherwise the cities wouldn't be sprawling more! Maybe these cities are not for everyone. I understand that. If someone wants the intensely urban environment, there are plenty to choose from. But I suggest a bit of tolerance. I don't disparage the highly urbanized areas for being noisy, filthy, unfriendly, generally dilapidated, and often crime-ridden. It's just a choice -- for people who have the resources to choose where they live, that is -- and the choice has consequences. Likewise for the suburban-oriented areas. Anyone who voluntarily moves to outer Raleigh and intends to depend on public transit needs a brain MRI.

 

[Anderson]

I don't know when or if it will actually this specific one will get built. But it is what Orlando's master plan says. That's all. Eventually something will get built. This is Florida, so one cannot say anything about anything until it happens.

Devil's Advocate has already provided most of the reason why MCO makes more sense than anywhere else in Orlando. I suppose somewhere near Disney would have been another alternative but it would lack the other inter connectivity facilities already available and planned at MCO.

So that is the way it is. There is no alternate plan and there is no real plan to revisit this decision so carping about it at present is mostly whistling in the wind.

I think I've said this before, but I do think there will be a Disney station eventually. The "eventually" bit is largely down to if/when the Tampa extension happens (I'm thinking "not within the next decade"), but given Disney's attitude towards the HSR plan they're presumably going to be open to working with this (and likely willing to pay for a station, though not the tracks and whatnot).

 

[VentureForth]

I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.

 

[Anderson]

I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.

Frankly, if you can get the CSX-airport connection going (e.g. the planned SunRail connection) and you could successfully platform and run through Amtrak's trains at the planned OIA station, I'd tentatively be in favor of re-routing Amtrak over the new FEC tracks. The problem is that (A') you'd lose several stations (Sebring is more important than Okeechobee); (B') you'd need to split trains to serve Tampa; and (C') you'd lose Tampa-Miami intrastate traffic, which is a non-trivial consideration. The offset is that you'd knock about two hours off of the Orlando-Miami time, maybe a bit less if you switch back to CSX/Tri-Rail tracks in South Florida.

Of course, if the Tampa extension to FEC goes through my instinct would be to try and "do a deal" to split all the Florida trains at OIA into a Miami section and a Tampa section (either via through cars or via full, separate trains).

 

[Eric S]

Lots of invective about Orlando. I have no connection to the city and haven't been there in five years. But I hear the same invective about sprawl and poor zoning from lots of people about other cities, too. Raleigh, for one, where I do live. The fact is, these cities are sprawling because (some) people do want to live there. Otherwise the cities wouldn't be sprawling more! Maybe these cities are not for everyone. I understand that. If someone wants the intensely urban environment, there are plenty to choose from. But I suggest a bit of tolerance. I don't disparage the highly urbanized areas for being noisy, filthy, unfriendly, generally dilapidated, and often crime-ridden. It's just a choice -- for people who have the resources to choose where they live, that is -- and the choice has consequences. Likewise for the suburban-oriented areas. Anyone who voluntarily moves to outer Raleigh and intends to depend on public transit needs a brain MRI.

Wow! Seriously?

Noisy, filthy, unfriendly, dilapidated, crime-ridden.

Suburban sprawl does not simply occur because people choose to live there. It occurs, in part, because of specific government policies and actions. Policies that often prevent and prohibit traditional development and require sprawling suburban and exurban development. Policies that make transit service nearly impossible (or at least extremely costly). Policies that essentially prohibit lower-income housing, essentially relegating the poor to live in older urban neighborhoods instead.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.

You can start to advocate that sooner then you think, since I found the routing for the proposed Maglev. Though I'd wait until construction starts then you can go in that direction.

 

[Anderson]

That strikes me as a somewhat odd routing. Unless it's really being done on the cheap, I'd think that the Disney leg is extremely indirect and rather excessive in length. Really, the only explanations I can think of are that either (1) WDW and/or Universal didn't want a direct link to one another or (2) the Maglev folks were worried that putting lines to both destinations out of the north side of OIA would overwhelm the system.

 

[cirdan]

Many European railroads that supposedly offer airline luggage check-in in reality offer something else.

You normally drop off your bag at the station the day before your flight (or if you're lucky you drop it off at the hotel reception and they take it for you). The bag doesn't go as checked luggage on the same train you are on. For that you would need dedicated baggage cars on assorted trains with appropriate security which most railroads do not have. Instead the bag is sent to the airport by van.

 

[xyzzy]

Suburban sprawl does not simply occur because people choose to live there. It occurs, in part, because of specific government policies and actions. Policies that often prevent and prohibit traditional development and require sprawling suburban and exurban development. Policies that make transit service nearly impossible (or at least extremely costly). Policies that essentially prohibit lower-income housing, essentially relegating the poor to live in older urban neighborhoods instead.

But that's just projecting blame into a nameless, faceless, malevolent government disconnected from the will of the alleged majority. Ultimately government is we ourselves. In most cases, jurisdictions that pursue anti-sprawl policies are simply bypassed -- if not locally, then nationally. That's the push of the free-market economy.

I agree that policies have intermediate-term influence one way or the other, but the influence is finite in scope as well as being subject to the long-term wishes of the electorate. Driving a dagger completely through the heart of sprawl generally means restricting the rights of outlying property owners to develop their real estate, and if taken too far such a policy is subject to being invalidated by the courts.

 

[cirdan]

I'm still completely befuddled why they are putting the Orlando terminal at MCO. The entire beauty of taking the train to New York is stepping out on 34th street, not at JFK's terminal. If I wanted to go to JFK, I'd fly.

Amtrak seems to think serving Miami airport is as good as serving downtown Miami. Until AAF came along, Tri-Rail thought the same.

If you're assuming most people are driving to the train, downtown stations are not necessarily the best option.

Orlando (in my eyes at least) still has very much of a car-based culture. More so than Miami. So what worked for Miami should work for Orlando.

Besides which, there is a project to extend Sunrail to the airport there.

 

[cirdan]

Suburban sprawl does not simply occur because people choose to live there. It occurs, in part, because of specific government policies and actions. Policies that often prevent and prohibit traditional development and require sprawling suburban and exurban development. Policies that make transit service nearly impossible (or at least extremely costly). Policies that essentially prohibit lower-income housing, essentially relegating the poor to live in older urban neighborhoods instead.

But that's just projecting blame into a nameless, faceless, malevolent government disconnected from the will of the alleged majority. Ultimately government is we ourselves. In most cases, jurisdictions that pursue anti-sprawl policies are simply bypassed -- if not locally, then nationally. That's the push of the free-market economy.

I agree that policies have intermediate-term influence one way or the other, but the influence is finite in scope as well as being subject to the long-term wishes of the electorate. Driving a dagger completely through the heart of sprawl generally means restricting the rights of outlying property owners to develop their real estate, and if taken too far such a policy is subject to being invalidated by the courts.

Government interference can hurt both ways. In many downtown areas for example, construction and zoning laws are preventing urban rebirth by, for example, mandating a minimum ratio of parking spaces to office space, and hence tying up vast amounts of land and real estate that could be developed more efficiently in a transit based culture.

 

[Ryan]

Ultimately government is we ourselves.

How incredibly naive.

Even if it were true, sprawl happens because people don't have to pay for all the negative externalities that come along with it. Raise the gas tax to reflect the true cost of driving and you'll see sprawl virtually disappear. But hey, as long as you can be a free rider and spew as much pollution as you care to, there's no reason not to keep on spreading out.