Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[CSXfoamer1997]

Local media did an exclusive on the station in WPB. Not a bad piece: http://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/west-palm-beach/brightline-high-speed-rail-from-wpb-to-miami-70-percent-complete

Also:

That is a screenshot from this video:

Lookin' good! I can't wait to see them in action!

 

[user 1215]

Still wondering why connecting to the airport... If they are going to fly into Orlando to take the train, why not just fly into Miami?

Riding the train into Orlando will be a pain as Mears OWNS transport in and out of the airport. Can't even Uber. Lynx is a joke and Sunrail won't connect.

I am excited, though, and can't wait to see it happen. Any chance they'll ever get the Ft. Lauderdale - Cocoa Beach/Daytona a faster rated track?

 

[jis]

Still wondering why connecting to the airport... If they are going to fly into Orlando to take the train, why not just fly into Miami?

Riding the train into Orlando will be a pain as Mears OWNS transport in and out of the airport. Can't even Uber. Lynx is a joke and Sunrail won't connect.

I am excited, though, and can't wait to see it happen. Any chance they'll ever get the Ft. Lauderdale - Cocoa Beach/Daytona a faster rated track?

This has been explained a few times, but apparently you missed the somewhat extensive discussion.

Orlando is very spread out and there really is no single place in Orlando, other than the airport where all modes come together, including SunRail in the near future and the future LRT terminal. That is why it terminates at the Airport. Also going anywhere else will involve acquisition of much more expensive land, which the AAF folks are not interested in. So it is convenient for them and not terribly inconvenient for the passengers since connectivity to rental cars (one of the most common modes of transport for visitors to the Orlando area), Disneyland connection (the second most common transport for visitors, if not the first), and Cruise line bus connections, are all right at the airport. In the near future SunRail will provide connectivity to Kissimmee and downtown. Until then there is Lynx Bus connection again from the airport. it meets the needs of the vast majority of people.

 

[CCC1007]

Not to mention that not all airlines serve both Orlando and Miami, such as allegiant air which has a hub at Orlando.

 

[A Voice]

It is being reported on Train Orders that the first Brightline trainset will depart the factory within the next couple days, shipped by Union Pacific and CSX via New Orleans to Jacksonville (oh, the irony...).

I thought Amtrak was handling the move to Florida? Is this still a special Amtrak move, but taking this route?

 

[user 1215]

Still wondering why connecting to the airport... If they are going to fly into Orlando to take the train, why not just fly into Miami?

Riding the train into Orlando will be a pain as Mears OWNS transport in and out of the airport. Can't even Uber. Lynx is a joke and Sunrail won't connect.

I am excited, though, and can't wait to see it happen. Any chance they'll ever get the Ft. Lauderdale - Cocoa Beach/Daytona a faster rated track?

This has been explained a few times, but apparently you missed the somewhat extensive discussion.

Orlando is very spread out and there really is no single place in Orlando, other than the airport where all modes come together, including SunRail in the near future and the future LRT terminal. That is why it terminates at the Airport. Also going anywhere else will involve acquisition of much more expensive land, which the AAF folks are not interested in. So it is convenient for them and not terribly inconvenient for the passengers since connectivity to rental cars (one of the most common modes of transport for visitors to the Orlando area), Disneyland connection (the second most common transport for visitors, if not the first), and Cruise line bus connections, are all right at the airport. In the near future SunRail will provide connectivity to Kissimmee and downtown. Until then there is Lynx Bus connection again from the airport. it meets the needs of the vast majority of people.

Yes, I remember all the conversations that were had months and years ago. Hence, why I started with the words, "I still".

The three or four Lynx busses that service MCO are horribly inefficient.

Airport property is amongst the most expensive to lease in any metro area.

Sunrail comes close, but not quite to the airport. It would make more sense to have a stop at the airport, then a service facility/junction at Sand Lake road.

The reference to connecting to Kissimmee is irrelevant as you have to get to the Sunrail station anyway. Besides, it's not really about going to Kissimmee as much as Kissimmeians getting out.

As for cruise lines, more cruises, other than Disney Cruise Lines offer better value, scheduling and flight connections out of Ft Lauderdale and Miami than Orlando to Port Canaveral.

Finally, for the handful of airlines that serve Orlando or Miami but not the other, would it still be cheaper than just picking another airline to get to the airport you want to get to?

Finally, I would sincerely like to add more intelligent input to this conversation, but my work has blocked any webpage developed on Word Press, which is like 80% of websites. Ugh.

 

[jis]

SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline. It will then have hourly service both to Kissimmee and at least through Orange County including Orlando Amtrak. That is why I said near future.

No one has to acquire any land at the Airport since the Orlando Aviation Authority already owns the land and it is they that are building and will run the OIA station. AAF will simply lease space there. The OIA station is an integral part of the new South Terminal Complex being constructed by the Orlando Aviation Authority.

On this whole business of cruise terminals and airline flights ... I don't think AAF really cares too much about cruise line passengers or intra-Florida aviation passengers (except when they choose to travel by road between Miami or Orlando and points in between at least initially. Those are mostly obsessions of armchair planners far removed from AAF or Florida as far as I can tell. Primarily, it is trying to skim off just 2% to 5% of the road traffic between Miami and Orlando and points in between. If they can pull 2% off they become profitable, is their claim. It is reducing load on roads that brings the Floridians on board. They don't really care what the cruise and air passengers do, as long as they stay off the roads In this context they potentially open up some possible usage for passengers arriving at one of the airports and planning to use a cruise terminal closer to one of the Brightline station than to the airport of arrival. But as I said, that is a secondary concern. Of course they would be happy to pick up any refugees from intra-Florida aviation too. But at least initially that is not their focus. or at least that is the distinct impression one gets from their business plan.

As for providing any meaningful input on determining the Orlando location of the Brightline station, that time is well past. At this point there is not much to add to the conversation of the location of the AAF/Brightline station in Orlando. it is a settled fact and contracts are in place. It is under construction, clearly visible even from the North Terminal Complex, as is the entire ROW on airport property connecting from the station to the airport border where AAF construction will take over for constructing the SR528 component between airport boundary and Cocoa FEC, in the next 12 to 18 months.

 

[neroden]

SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline.

Any news on funding for this? We could be sitting for years with broken connectivity. Such a short extension...
(P.S. It would be wise if Amtrak did some new market analyses for the Silver Service after Brightline opens to Orlando. Brightline will presumably take nearly all local Miami-Orlando traffic. With Tri-Rail connecting Miami to Amtrak stations as far north as West Palm Beach, and Sunrail connecting Orlando to stations from DeLand (eventually) to Kissimee, the intrastate ridership on the Meteor service is going to collapse. It might make sense to reroute the Silver Meteor entirely onto the FEC (presuming negotiations could be completed), which should beef up Florida-to-the-north ridership if it's done right. Silver Star service to Tampa will probably be unimpacted or helped by Brightline & the commuter rail, and could probably handle most of the passengers who currently take the Meteor and aren't served by Brightline or either commuter rail.)

 

[cirdan]

SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline.

Any news on funding for this? We could be sitting for years with broken connectivity. Such a short extension...
(P.S. It would be wise if Amtrak did some new market analyses for the Silver Service after Brightline opens to Orlando. Brightline will presumably take nearly all local Miami-Orlando traffic. With Tri-Rail connecting Miami to Amtrak stations as far north as West Palm Beach, and Sunrail connecting Orlando to stations from DeLand (eventually) to Kissimee, the intrastate ridership on the Meteor service is going to collapse. It might make sense to reroute the Silver Meteor entirely onto the FEC (presuming negotiations could be completed), which should beef up Florida-to-the-north ridership if it's done right. Silver Star service to Tampa will probably be unimpacted or helped by Brightline & the commuter rail, and could probably handle most of the passengers who currently take the Meteor and aren't served by Brightline or either commuter rail.)

I guess Brightline are OK with Tri-Rail sharing their tracks at the Miami end as they are not really competitors and Tr-rail is siphoning additional riders into Miami station and boosting its real estate value.

But would Brightline be fine with Amtrak running on their tracks and poaching their riders? Especially seeing Amtrak probably won't serve Brightline's Miami station (platforms probably not long enough) and will probably continue running to Hialeah or the airport or wherever and thus not add any value to Brightline's prime location.

 

[A Voice]

SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline.

Any news on funding for this? We could be sitting for years with broken connectivity. Such a short extension...
(P.S. It would be wise if Amtrak did some new market analyses for the Silver Service after Brightline opens to Orlando. Brightline will presumably take nearly all local Miami-Orlando traffic. With Tri-Rail connecting Miami to Amtrak stations as far north as West Palm Beach, and Sunrail connecting Orlando to stations from DeLand (eventually) to Kissimee, the intrastate ridership on the Meteor service is going to collapse. It might make sense to reroute the Silver Meteor entirely onto the FEC (presuming negotiations could be completed), which should beef up Florida-to-the-north ridership if it's done right. Silver Star service to Tampa will probably be unimpacted or helped by Brightline & the commuter rail, and could probably handle most of the passengers who currently take the Meteor and aren't served by Brightline or either commuter rail.)

Placing the Silver Meteor - a long distance train - onto the FEC route would miss the important and busy destination of Orlando (Walt Disney World). Further, people tend to not like changing trains; Passengers from origin points north of Deland aren't going to disembark Amtrak just to get on Brightline to south Florida (or to Disney), and regardless the trains take different routes (and stations) to Miami. More trains to more places on increased frequencies tend to attract more passengers overall; We've seen this before. I'm not certain effects on the Meteor will be what you think.

 

[jis]

SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline.

Any news on funding for this? We could be sitting for years with broken connectivity. Such a short extension...

Sunrail Phase III has passed the first funding hurdle. It is now on the list of projects eligible for FTA funding. Ahead of it though is Sunrail Phase IIb which is also awaiting funding. OTOH, Sunrail Phase III is entirely within Orange County, and indeed entirely within Orlando City. Moreover a significant part of its total funding need can be met from the Orlando Airport ticket fees, i.e. for everything that is within airport boundary, including the station which the airport authority owns and will operate, leasing space to both Brightline and Sunrail. So the only external funding needed is for upgrading the existing track connection from Sunrail to the airport boundary. There can be various means of funding from potentially copious sources within Orlando City involving resort surtax and such, this which may avoid the need for any federal funding, should push come to shove. OTOH, the same sources will also need to be tapped for operating subsidies. So we'll see how it pans out.

The bottom line though is that at present there is no targeted funding outside of the airport. I expect it will be a few years before that becomes an issue, since even Brightline is unlikely to get to OIA before late 2019.

 

[jis]

According to usually reliable sources on the internet, the first Brightline train set is departing Siemens plant in Sacramento today (8 Dec 2016) headed for Florida by way of Colton, Sunset Route to New Orleans, CSX from New Orleans to Jacksonville, and then down the coast on FEC to West Palm beach. I wish I could find out when it will pass by here in Melbourne FL.

 

[jis]

Brightline consist departing for Florida from the Siemens plant.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Brightline consist departing for Florida from the Siemens plant.

Great Video! Thanks for posting.

 

[jis]

From information heard from various defect detectors en route the max speed at which it is operating is 69mph.

Around 4:30am EST of 12/9/16 it passed Mojave CA en route to Colton where it joins the Sunset route to New Orleans.

 

[MattW]

Interesting. I know 49, 59 and 79 are special as far as signal speeds on the railroads, but why is 69 special vs 70? Some other random regulation I'm unaware of?

 

[jis]

The max allowed is probably 70. So far reported speed by various equipment detectors has been 69. that may be just by chance.

 

[jis]

Just West of Indio at 10:50 EST on 12/9

 

[Anderson]

(1) I know all the stuff about Orlando, but I was rather surprised to see a connection to Disneyland. Then again, given how many visitors think they parked in the "Mickey" parking lot at Magic Kingdom (hint: Said parking lot is in Anaheim) maybe such a connection would be useful?;-)

(2) Serving the Fort Lauderdale airport makes a lot of sense. There are plenty of cases of airlines not serving both airports (or only having thin service at one or the other; for example, as of this moment Virgin Atlantic, British Airways, Air France, and Lufthansa don't serve Fort Lauderdale), and FLL tends to be more expensive than MCO (but also have better service). An example is that JetBlue will be adding Mint service to FLL but not MCO, and Virgin America presently has substantially more flights to FLL than MCO. Finally, serving FLL offers passengers a stronger alternative to using MIA to get to Miami (MIA being one of the most expensive airports to fly into, not to mention in my recollection having often-swamped Customs desks) as well as access to West Palm Beach (PBI being a far smaller airport than the others). So this puts a lot of options on the table.

 

[chrsjrcj]

According to usually reliable sources on the internet, the first Brightline train set is departing Siemens plant in Sacramento today (8 Dec 2016) headed for Florida by way of Colton, Sunset Route to New Orleans, CSX from New Orleans to Jacksonville, and then down the coast on FEC to West Palm beach. I wish I could find out when it will pass by here in Melbourne FL.

FEC most likely will be under the cover of darkness. Brightline wants to unveil the equipment at their own time.

 

[jis]

Not to worry. We know people at the right places in ASF. Of course the information may come with a request that the information not be posted, and if so, the request will be honored, like such requests always are, at least by me.

 

[jis]

Brightline consist zipping through Arizona.

 

[neroden]

But would Brightline be fine with Amtrak running on their tracks and poaching their riders?

I don't think Amtrak would be poaching their riders; I think the ridership would be entirely separate. Heck, Amtrak could make every single station on the FEC discharge only southbound and receive only northbound. And skip most of them, for speed ("get off at WPB and change to Brightline for onward travel").
Brightline is going to take the intra-Florida traffic because Amtrak trains are coming from NY and therefore may be highly delayed, and Brightline trains won't be. However, this will only increase the number of people coming by Amtrak from *outside* Florida to Florida.

As for Disney World, you already have to get a taxi or an extremely slow bus. Getting a taxi from Cocoa isn't particularly worse than from downtown Orlando. I'd be worried more about connectivity to Orlando proper. The Silver Star already goes to Orlando already, though.

 

[jis]

Disney customers who book a Disney trip through Disney get picked up by Disney buses at OIA, and those are hardly slow. They get straight onto SR417 through the South Entrance to the airport and zip over to Disney avoiding all of the Orlando downtown and I-4 traffic.

Disney actually prefers capturing its customers as soon as they get off the plane, onto their own transport. The Disney experience begins at the airport. That is why they have resisted building public transport from airport to Disney properties. Same will be true with Brightline. Amtrak simply does not carry a sufficiently large number of people to Disney for Disney to worry about it too much. They would be and are OK with random Lynx buses running to Disney. But they would not be OK with a truly high capacity service that is not in their sole control, running service to Disney. Go figure.

 

[jis]

Some neat graphics from AAF brightline Branding...

http://www.evanallen.com/brightline/hunw134tqffmercr9onmac46n0wudd