Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[bretton88]

And here is one option for AAF rolling stock. The proposal is to remodel the old High Levels. AAF Rolling Stock

The website is a little vague. But apparently the company, Corridor Capital owns 50 of these high levels and is proposing to rehab them for use on the FEC. Basically making these more modern California Cars with the old shells. I can see this happening, as it would probably be cheaper than buying new, and they could get them in time for start of service. The other option of tacking it onto the current corridor order is probably unfeasible as they probably wouldn't get trains in time for start of service.

 

[Anderson]

That proposal has been discussed above; my best guess is that it was a "one of many options" presentation that AAF is considering.

 

[jis]

That proposal has been discussed above; my best guess is that it was a "one of many options" presentation that AAF is considering.

Yup. It will depend to quite an extent on what is the metal fatigue situation in those car frames, and how much re-trucking or rehabbing their existing truck for 110mph will cost.

In the long run AAF will be better off with brand new purpose built cars. Since it is an isolated operation they would be better off buying Tier III off the shelf equipment from Europe. Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the entire length of the train at both levels, that could be really cool!

 

[rrdude]

My two-cents on the "No thru ticketing" issue. It's just to distance themselves as much as possible from Amtrak, pre-start up. Once they are running, they will eventually offer thru ticketing. Then there is no reason not to. It also keeps everything EASIER right now. Want a ticket? Go online. Just like Megabus or Bolt.

What they should really be working on is thru-ticketing with the airlines that serve Orlando and Miami. That's were a lot of traffic might be generated.

Herb / Colleen, are you listening? You two could do this in Texas! "SouthWest Expre3ss" the rail feeder for Southwest Airlines. High-speed rail serving the Texas Triangle.

 

[CHamilton]

Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the tnire length of thet rain at both levels, that could be really cool!

I bet Talgo would give them a nice deal on some unused cars from Wisconsin...

 

[Brian_tampa]

AAF has been promising a startup date of no later than Jan 1st 2015. Here is a recent meeting minutes document from the Orlando Airport regarding their south airport automated people mover (APM) complex project. The project involves constructing an APM to the existing north terminal, a new hotel, a 3500 car parking garage, bus/taxi dropoff areas, and (I believe) car rental facilities. The APM complex will also be where any rail stations are to be built. This meeting was to discuss the RFP for the selection of a 'prime design consultant' for this project. In the Q and A part of the minutes of the meeting document the following was asked:

Question 47: Regarding WS100 (Prime Designer): The anticipated project Schedule identifies a design start of February 13, 2013, and a project operational date of May 2015. A two year timeframe for completing design, permitting and construction is extremely aggressive. Is the two year timeframe set, or is there flexibility in the schedule?

Answer 47: These are the proposed dates.

It looks like OIA is serious about building this long talked about complex. I would think that the AAF proposal helped to kick start the schedule.

So it appears that there will be a lag time of at least 5 months between when AAF is operational and when the new complex is ready at OIA. I wonder how AAF will get passengers from what will be a pretty big construction site to the main terminal? Or will AAF have to delay the start of services until the APM is ready?

Here is the link to the document: http://orlandoairports.net/construction/advertisements/W-S100-101_Presubmittal_Minutes.pdf

 

[Brian_tampa]

Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the tnire length of thet rain at both levels, that could be really cool!

I bet Talgo would give them a nice deal on some unused cars from Wisconsin...

At the FECRS convention last month, the AAF representative that gave a presentation mentioned something about the lead time for obtaining 10 train sets would be 24-30 months from date of order. The last I heard was that the order would be placed by the end of 2012. I think he also mentioned 7 passenger cars in each set = 70 cars total with 20 power units (front and rear). IMHO I think AAF will go with Talgo or Siemens (or another european manufacturer). That would make a statement to showcase their project.

 

[jis]

Yeah IMHO I doubt that they will go with spiffied up Hi-Level cars no matter how much that will make railfans drool, unless of course they have a rather short horizon and do not believe that they will succeed in the long run. Why burden yourself with yet another equipment acquisition exercise within ten years, when you can start with a clean slate and go 25 years?

 

[Trogdor]

Herb / Colleen, are you listening? You two could do this in Texas! "SouthWest Expre3ss" the rail feeder for Southwest Airlines. High-speed rail serving the Texas Triangle.

I don't think Herb or Colleen have much to say about anything, since they're no longer in charge at Southwest Airlines.

The guy you need to talk to is Gary Kelly, who is busy trying to integrate AirTran while maintaining a reservations system that is woefully inadequate for the task.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the tnire length of thet rain at both levels, that could be really cool!

I bet Talgo would give them a nice deal on some unused cars from Wisconsin...

At the FECRS convention last month, the AAF representative that gave a presentation mentioned something about the lead time for obtaining 10 train sets would be 24-30 months from date of order. The last I heard was that the order would be placed by the end of 2012. I think he also mentioned 7 passenger cars in each set = 70 cars total with 20 power units (front and rear). IMHO I think AAF will go with Talgo or Siemens (or another european manufacturer). That would make a statement to showcase their project.

Also on the AAF website (under the FAQ section) it is clear what their plans are:

What kind of train will it be? Have you selected the equipment?

No train operator or rolling stock has been selected yet. All Aboard Florida will select modern equipment that is compliant with the Federal Railroad Administration, is certified to operate at higher sustained speeds, and utilizes clean-diesel engines that meet stringent Tier 3 federal emission standards.

I find it interesting they say "no train operator..." implying that AAF is not necessarily going to be the organization operating the trains. Maybe AAF is in negotiations to combine the purchase of train sets with selecting an operator? Does anyone know what manufacturer would be able to offer these services?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I find it interesting they say "no train operator..." implying that AAF is not necessarily going to be the organization operating the trains. Maybe AAF is in negotiations to combine the purchase of train sets with selecting an operator? Does anyone know what manufacturer would be able to offer these services?

It is interesting, but it is tough to know exactly what they mean, especially if they either don't know yet themselves, are leaving themselves some 'wiggle room', are obtuse because of ongoing negotiations, or a combination of 'all of the above'.

It is also interesting that Talgo builds trainsets, cars, and is

...proud to be a pioneer company in providing complete maintenance solutions [including OBTs and cleaning] to railway operators all over the world since the 1950s.(from Talgo America's website HERE)

HERE is a link to Talgo N.A.'s webpage of services provided in the Northwest.

 

[jis]

Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the tnire length of thet rain at both levels, that could be really cool!

I bet Talgo would give them a nice deal on some unused cars from Wisconsin...

At the FECRS convention last month, the AAF representative that gave a presentation mentioned something about the lead time for obtaining 10 train sets would be 24-30 months from date of order. The last I heard was that the order would be placed by the end of 2012. I think he also mentioned 7 passenger cars in each set = 70 cars total with 20 power units (front and rear). IMHO I think AAF will go with Talgo or Siemens (or another european manufacturer). That would make a statement to showcase their project.

Also on the AAF website (under the FAQ section) it is clear what their plans are:

What kind of train will it be? Have you selected the equipment?

No train operator or rolling stock has been selected yet. All Aboard Florida will select modern equipment that is compliant with the Federal Railroad Administration, is certified to operate at higher sustained speeds, and utilizes clean-diesel engines that meet stringent Tier 3 federal emission standards.

I find it interesting they say "no train operator..." implying that AAF is not necessarily going to be the organization operating the trains. Maybe AAF is in negotiations to combine the purchase of train sets with selecting an operator? Does anyone know what manufacturer would be able to offer these services?

Bombardier just got the operating contract for part of MARC's operations, ironically, the part that does not operate at 125mph. So they could possibly do equipment and operation both. I suppose Talgo could too, though they don't currently have an operating contract in the US.

 

[AlanB]

Why burden yourself with yet another equipment acquisition exercise within ten years, when you can start with a clean slate and go 25 years?

So that you can reenact the Amtrak plan? :unsure:

:lol: :lol:

 

[Anderson]

Yeah IMHO I doubt that they will go with spiffied up Hi-Level cars no matter how much that will make railfans drool, unless of course they have a rather short horizon and do not believe that they will succeed in the long run. Why burden yourself with yet another equipment acquisition exercise within ten years, when you can start with a clean slate and go 25 years?

Oh, I can give you three great reasons:

1) Initial cost. New cars seem to run somewhere in the $2-3 million range, depending on a host of factors. That's going to be $14-21 million for a seven-car set, probably close to the middle of the range. Old cars can probably be had for $1 million apiece or less.

2) Depreciation schedules. It's quite possible that, given their state, the old cars could be put on an accelerated depreciation schedule (say, 10-15 years instead of 30-40 years).

3) Acquisition times. You could probably get the Hi-Levels on the road in 12-18 months vs. the 24-30 (if not more) that a new set seems likely to take.

Not that any of these would override the hassles of the older equipment, but they all seem valid reasons to look at. I'd also note that even if you think your operation is a "sure thing", it might well make sense to use the older sets, figure out what demand /really/ looks like (maybe you actually need a few sets that are longer than you thought to deal with peak-hour demand, for example), and then tailor your order. Likewise, waiting a few years on the "main" order would allow them to potentially get ten sets for MIA-ORL plus whatever would be needed for an extension to Tampa (and/or Jacksonville) in the same order, potentially avoiding extra costs associated with smaller orders.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

AAF's website states it will be modern equipment. Calling even rehabbed Hi-Liners 'modern equipment' would be a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying someone wouldn't do it, but it is a stretch.

 

[rrdude]

Disagree, you pump enuff money into older equipment, it will come out looking like the Space Shuttle. (Hmmm, prolly a bad ref here, since they are all in museums now) anyway, you get my point.

The dome-diners and kitchen cars that we leased from Transcisco Tours for our dinner train were "Heritage Equipment", but looked and ran probably much better than the day they were outshopped from their builder.

Take a shell, rewire it, add new truck bodies, trucks, wheels, brakes, all the mechanicals, modern interior, AC, and VOILA! You have "new" or "modern" equipment.

I agree with JIS, I'd love to see the bilevels he mentioned, with passage thru the cars on both levels. Increase capacity, EZ loading, no need to interchange with other equipment, sounds like a winner to me.

 

[Anderson]

AAF's website states it will be modern equipment. Calling even rehabbed Hi-Liners 'modern equipment' would be a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying someone wouldn't do it, but it is a stretch.

Oh, I agree with you on this. However, there's one other point I'd make: At this stage in the process, I just don't see AAF saying "We're going to use the best equipment of the 1950s!" in a pitch, even if it's true. It's probably easier to say they'll get modern equipment and then say "...er...modernized equipment. This was the best offer we found to start up."

 

[jis]

AAF's website states it will be modern equipment. Calling even rehabbed Hi-Liners 'modern equipment' would be a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying someone wouldn't do it, but it is a stretch.

Oh, I agree with you on this. However, there's one other point I'd make: At this stage in the process, I just don't see AAF saying "We're going to use the best equipment of the 1950s!" in a pitch, even if it's true. It's probably easier to say they'll get modern equipment and then say "...er...modernized equipment. This was the best offer we found to start up."

The fact that they say basically 2 to 3 years to acquire equipment suggest that they are setting their goals higher than just patching up some existing equipment. That's just my guess.

 

[Brian_tampa]

AAF's website states it will be modern equipment. Calling even rehabbed Hi-Liners 'modern equipment' would be a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying someone wouldn't do it, but it is a stretch.

Oh, I agree with you on this. However, there's one other point I'd make: At this stage in the process, I just don't see AAF saying "We're going to use the best equipment of the 1950s!" in a pitch, even if it's true. It's probably easier to say they'll get modern equipment and then say "...er...modernized equipment. This was the best offer we found to start up."

The fact that they say basically 2 to 3 years to acquire equipment suggest that they are setting their goals higher than just patching up some existing equipment. That's just my guess.

I will agree with you. Also add in their stated goals of attracting tourists (which here in Florida means alot of international visitors from Europe) and business travelers and one could see why they would want to present modern looking (and state of the art) trains to their customers. I might be wrong, but my feeling is that AAF wants to start with alot of class and style, not just putting the cheapest and quickest equipment available out on the track. Remember we are talking Miami/S Florida here... land of people who care more about looks and appearance than most anything else! j/k LOL

Their whole idea is to move passengers and develop the land and buildings to maximize their investment. This will be a first class operation IMO, as they are spending considerable effort on stations and presentation from what I have read and seen.

 

[Anderson]

I feel compelled to be flip for a moment, but "new" and "good looking" not only aren't synonymous, but they're in an annoying habit of being antonyms. Likewise...well, let's just say that I've got a tainted opinion of anything using LRC technology.

 

[Nathanael]

Take a shell, rewire it, add new truck bodies, trucks, wheels, brakes, all the mechanicals, modern interior, AC, and VOILA! You have "new" or "modern" equipment.

While it's true that the shells last for a very long time, a lot of the cost is in the trucks, truck bodies, brakes, wheels, mechanicals, and other underfloor equipment. I doubt it's actually worth getting old railcars if you have to replace all of that. Every time I've seen "old" cars purchased for an operation (other than a museum operation) they're complete with old (but working) trucks.

I suppose if there were a very large collection of shells in good condition it might make sense, but otherwise it's probably just cheaper to buy new cars.

 

[Nathanael]

Another reason to avoid STB is to be able to abandon service more expeditiously should such become necessary.

Ohhhhh, it could be this.

The STB has no power over passenger fares. But they still have the power to prevent discontinuation of service.

Anyway, the FEC has made *two* requests:

(1) for the STB to disclaim jurisdiction entirely. I think there's no chance this will be approved.

(2) in the alternative, for the STB to agree that the construction of the line is exempt from the legal requirement of prior approval for construction of a new railroad line. There is a chance that this will be approved, but I doubt it.

The third option is that the STB can issue approval (a certificate stating that the construction of the line is in the public interest) after a short public comment period. I'm no expert on the law, but it appears to me that this approval does not require a full Environmental Impact Statement, even though it's a federal action, because (1) it is narrowly tailored to answering the question of whether the line is in the public interest, and does not exempt the line from any other legal requirements (such as the wetlands laws), and (2) the law now contains a specific statement that construction of rail lines is considered to be in the public interest by default unless proven otherwise. If someone has precedent to the contrary it would be interesting. It looks to me, though I might be wrong, as if the STB can also issue its certificate without a comment period if it determines that expedited construction is necessary....

So there's something funny about the request. It seems like the STB approval process over construction of new railway lines is practically pro forma and doesn't cause a problem, so why is FEC asking to be exempt?

 

[CHamilton]

Downtown Miami On Track For Expanded Commuter Rail Service By 2014

A half-century after the last passenger trains pulled into Downtown Miami, plans to return rail transport to South Florida's urban corridors are moving at breakneck pace.

At least 24,000 riders would use a proposed new commuter rail line between Jupiter and Downtown Miami, reports Miami Today.

The line lies along Florida East Coast Railway's US 1 corridor tracks, which the company plans to use for its upcoming Miami-to-Orlando All Aboard Florida rail service.

Longtime South Florida commuter service Tri-Rail, which currently makes its southernmost stop near Hialeah, is hoping to utilize FEC's Downtown track for a new eastern "Blue Line," pending municipal cooperation toward station development.

Both companies have expressed mutual willingness to share the FEC tracks. All Aboard Florida would service significantly fewer stations along the corridor than Tri-Rail, which plans to add 12 new stops between Fort Lauderdale and Miami for Blue Line service:

 

[Brian_tampa]

An update to the Orlando airport station plans. In a pre-submittal presentation for project consultants I noticed that the slides show the AAF tracks coming into the new station from the north. I believe you can see this on pages 32-34 of the document. This means that AAF won't be using the OUC railroad ROW for accessing the airport from the east and south. This has to be the latest updated (for AAF) version of the original document most likely developed for the HSR project from 2010. I say this because that proposal had the trains coming into the station from the south. Here is the link to the PDF file:

http://www.orlandoairports.net/construction/advertisements/W-S100-101_Presubmittal_Presentation.pdf

By the way, the station as imagined here looks pretty nice!

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Looks great! Seems like the tracks will likely head south from the Rt. 528 corridor. So no Morman Church lands in the mix now?