Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Eric S]

I don't have the information in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure the 2 WI trainsets did/do have cafe or bistro cars. That was one of the points of contention, that the capacity of the Talgo trainsets would be less than the capacity of the current Amfleet/Horizon trains used on the Hiawatha. Originally, without the cafe, the capacity was to be slightly greater, but when WI changed things to add the cafe, capacity ended up somewhat less than at present.

 

[Trogdor]

The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.

One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Here is a link to the "Talgo Series 8 High Speed Passenger Car" pamphlet. Now it is a general marketing tool, but there are several things I found interesting in relation to AAF:

1) From the pamphlet:

Talgo is equally suited to operate in straight, high speed lines, providingbenefits to the operators associated with its lightweight construction,

articulated configuration and independent wheels.

2) There is a dining car option. I don't remember if AAF wants to provide 'at seat' dining like AE FC has, but I do know they talked about having more than a bistro car.

3) From the pamphlet:

Any conventional U.S. locomotive can haul Talgo passenger cars.

4) The "cab and auxiliary power car" has a stiking resemblence to Goofy, which would make it ideal for getting people to/from Orlando.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

They need to paint a picture of Goofy on it, then it would draw a lot of attention.

 

[cirdan]

So, just how many trainsets would the FEC need anyhow? Talgo has two turn-key sets right now that could me modified to FEC specs relatively easily (remember, the Wisconsin trains never had a cafe and only had one class of service.) Could Talgo, if FEC drafted up a contract for business, whip their US plant back into full-operation for an additional number of trains on semi-short-notice if asked for more sets?
I'm thinking along the lines of: "We have X $million and can contract you immediately, but you need to provide the trains in 18 months or no deal."

I guess Talgo could whip that plant back into production. They could also source the cars from Spain (as FEC is privately financed, Buy America rules don't apply). Maybe they can also find a US partner company to build them in the US. At the end of the day, economics will decide.

Is FEC not planning to operate a cafe? That would be a big minus in my opinion, as a cafe car service is something that neither buses nor airlines can offer. It would be a huge selling point.

I also wasn't aware that FEC was planning only one class of service. Again, I wonder whether that's a sound decison as it might keep away business travellers.

 

[cirdan]

The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.
One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.

If they chose to go that way, I hope they keep the end cars. RENFE has several short talgo sets consisting of end cars and just a handful of intermediate cars. They are added onto full-length trains when the need dictates it, such as on peak travel days. I believe they are fitted with diaphragms so passengers can access the dining car.

 

[Anderson]

I know FEC has touted planned food service (including meals), and three hours is a bit long to go without any OBS (there's a reason that Metro-North and the LIRR do still have limited OBS on a few longer runs...some NHV-bound trains and the Cannonball, IIRC). Whether they go with a dedicated cafe car, have a partial cafe/coach car, or try to get away with cart-only service is the question.

Edit:

• Services and amenities: The new passenger rail service will provide premium amenities, including Wi-Fi internet service, gourmet meals, reserved business and coach class seating, and will be fully equipped with easy-on/easy-off baggage compartments.

I assume the "gourmet meals" bit is likely to be slightly overblown, but it hints at decent OBS, whether handled via cart or via a dedicated car. If they go with bilevels, what I would bet on is one level of one car being given over to OBS.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Folks:

One of the goals is to operate the trains with an overall average speed similar to the Acela Express operating on the Northeast Corridor between New York and Washington, DC, reducing the travel time between Miami and Orlando to three hours and two minutes versus the approximately four hour driving time. Trains will offer a full range of premium amenities including Wi-Fi internet service, gourmet meals and beverage service, comfortable seating, reserved business & coach service seating, luggage & bicycle accommodations and online reservations.

From this article.

High Speed? Business Class? Luggage & Bike Storage? Wi-Fi? Meal and Beverage Service? Like I said before, check out the Talgo 8 series people.

 

[Brian_tampa]

AAF has apparently applied for an FRA RRIF loan on this past Friday:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-train-loan-feds-20130318,0,946363.story

No word on how much it is for according to the article. I always expected this since it was announced last October they were considering it. I assume it is for the Miami to WPB section as that is what has been cleared through the FRA and the environmental impact report last month.

 

[PPorro]

The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.
One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.

Are these different from the Talgo trains that went from WI to Oregon in November?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Here is an article From The Miami Herald on the latest on AAF. (Don't mind the picture of the anti-toll activist who doesn't understand that roads don't pay their way and need funding from somewhere.)

From the article:

Originally announced in March 2012, All Aboard Florida service was expected to launch in 2014. The start date has been moved back to 2015, Cumber said in a recent interview.
Aside from the delay, the project is on track.

The company’s $1 billion plan features 16 round trips a day from early morning to late evening with stops in Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach — with service possibly starting in late 2015. Trains would run hourly and each one-way trip would take about three hours. (emphasis added)

Also:

Quiet zones are perhaps one of the project’s most challenging issues, eliciting emotional reaction among residents who live near the track and demand that the train pass by quietly. Only public authorities such as cities, counties and the state can apply for authorization to build a quiet zone.“All Aboard Florida is in the process of determining the infrastructure needs for the system and we recognize that public agencies may want to explore opportunities to coordinate the construction of other improvements,” Cumber said. “We are willing to explore these ideas while we are still in the initial design phase.”

Quiet zones have already been set up along the existing stretch of the track in Miami, Cumber said. The Treasure Coast Regional Planning Council is looking into the possibility, an official said.

 

[Brian_tampa]

It seems that the Orlando airport authority has decided to not build a new south terminal, but instead focus (for now) on building the parking garage, tram, and train station. From the Orlando Sentinel:

Orlando International Airport officials are backing away from efforts to build a new southern terminal, but they still want a $470 million monorail and parking garage for a train depot – despite opposition from the major airlines.

Airport Chairman Frank Kruppenbacher said the train station is too important to the region's economy to be delayed. The monorail and parking garage would link to the depot paid for by the All Aboard Florida system from South Florida, with service planned to start in late 2015.

Here is the link http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-orlando-airport-board-20130320,0,2820400.story

It says that AAF would pay for the new station, while the Airport would pay for the parking garage and tram to the existing terminal.

Also of interest is this comment by the airline representative (from Southwest Airlines):

Gillespie, who also heads a committee that represents the biggest airlines at Orlando International, said he believes construction of the train depot will set the stage for the southern terminal, making the building of both projects inevitable. He said the airlines don't consider the train a competitor for passengers.

The airlines are not being anti-train just anti-spending by the airport at this time. Maybe they can be persuaded to work with AAF.

 

[MattW]

I would hope the airlines realize that the train is a good thing for them. Instead of handling a lot of Orlando-Miami traffic, they can replace those short-haul flights with longer-haul flights from elsewhere which should bring in more revenue. Orland-Miami at higher conventional speeds would seem to be right at the breakeven point for a person making a time-based decision on whether to fly or take the train.

 

[Brian_tampa]

I would hope the airlines realize that the train is a good thing for them. Instead of handling a lot of Orlando-Miami traffic, they can replace those short-haul flights with longer-haul flights from elsewhere which should bring in more revenue. Orland-Miami at higher conventional speeds would seem to be right at the breakeven point for a person making a time-based decision on whether to fly or take the train.

If I recall, Southwest has already announced service reductions between Orlando and south Florida airports that would take affect this year. That is why it would be good for the airlines to work with AAF. Although I think the STB might find that would create interstate commerce if the airlines and AAF had a code sharing or through ticketing agreement. And that would cast doubt on AAF's exemption from STB oversight that they obtained last year.

 

[jis]

I doubt that STB will be excited about that. Afterall AAF already plans to carry through ticketed passengers to Cruises that might call at other countries, which using the same argument should have gotten STB somewhat involved.

 

[Brian_tampa]

I doubt that STB will be excited about that. Afterall AAF already plans to carry through ticketed passengers to Cruises that might call at other countries, which using the same argument should have gotten STB somewhat involved.

Oh I did not know about that. I had heard rumors that they might. Do you know which cruise lines? That would be very helpful getting around Florida if you are a tourist. Not sure if international travel is under the purview of the STB.

 

[cirdan]

I would hope the airlines realize that the train is a good thing for them. Instead of handling a lot of Orlando-Miami traffic, they can replace those short-haul flights with longer-haul flights from elsewhere which should bring in more revenue. Orland-Miami at higher conventional speeds would seem to be right at the breakeven point for a person making a time-based decision on whether to fly or take the train.

It is also that people coming from intermediate places to go to the airport (and who previously wouldn't have because it was to much hassle) outweight the end to end travellers who previously caught the plane but will switch to the train. Hence both airlines and FEC benefit overall, even if on certain routes airlines will lose market share.

 

[battalion51]

It still seems like a waste to me to end at the airport. I could see having the airport as a station, but not as the terminal. If you look at what makes the Northeast Corridor successful it's taking people from where they are to where they want to go. It either needs to end up at the attractions area or at downtown, one or the other. Not having a link to SunRail just seems like it is going to be a waste as well. I guess it is possible that SunRail will put in a bus connection to the airport from the Sand Lake Road Station and that's just not being advertised yet, but then you're looking at a train-bus-tram-train trip...

 

[Nathanael]

The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.
One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.

Are these different from the Talgo trains that went from WI to Oregon in November?

Same production line, same model, different configuration. I forget the differences.

 

[Eric S]

The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.
One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.

Are these different from the Talgo trains that went from WI to Oregon in November?

Same production line, same model, different configuration. I forget the differences.

WI - 14 cars, coach class only

OR - 13 cars, coach and business classes

I think those are the key differences.

 

[Anderson]

A point to be had: The difference between coach and BC is likely something that could be fixed with a (relatively modest) renovation of 1-2 cars.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

According to this article in the Orlando Sentinel, liability concerns by the Beechline Expressway's overseers, the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority, over who would pay for what - in the event of a 'collision' - are holding up the negotiations.

Officials at the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority said Monday that they want to be sure the agency does not have to bear much, if any, responsibility if there is a collision on the BeachLine Expressway it owns between a car and the All Aboard Florida train.

And maybe I missed this earlier, or my addled brain doesn't remember, but I found this of interest too:

The state and Orlando agency are willing to lease the land along the southern edge of the road for 99 years at little or no cost to All Aboard. But Zucker said they need a resolution on what is called indemnification. Until then, no deal. (emphasis added)

Doesn't sound like AAF will be in the median.

When might the liability issue be resolved? I'm glad you asked!

The authority hopes to schedule more talks, officials said, but they may not take place until May, when a three-member committee involved in the agreement meets again.

 

[chrsjrcj]

A collision with a car? :unsure: Isn't that part of the route supposed to be grade separated anyway?

 

[jis]

A collision with a car? :unsure: Isn't that part of the route supposed to be grade separated anyway?

The train falling off its track comes to mind. Indemnification is about any eventuality that might require payment of damages, not just collision with cars.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Interesting counterpoint article (to the Orlando Sentinel report about "fretting over crashes") at tollroadsnews.com regarding AAF and OOCEA. This article says:

Michelle Maikisch, spokesman for the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority (OOCEA) is quite indignant about the report and says she "had words with" the reporter.

Also she said there were no big holdups in the talks with AAF:

There is no hold-up in talks, Maikisch insists, and Zucker the OOCEA lawyer did not speak in the take-it-or-leave-it terms the Sentinel suggested: "I was there I heard him speak."

Normal discussions over details of lease

She says the Expressway Authority has agreed in principle to lease a railroad company right of way along the 528 so it can build a rail line and operate trains in the corridor. And Maikisch says the Authority is having normal discussions with the lessee company about many details of the lease including liability in case of accidents.

So I guess the story is really a bunch of media invented excitment? Stay tuned...

Here is the link to the article: http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6488