Great idea. Next trip I’ll forget the usual sights and focus on the un attractive scenes using my iPhone.
Cardinal discussion
- Thread starter BlackDiamond
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Make sure and get that underpass on Illinois St. That really provides the atmosphere.
That first image reminds me just a bit of the scene from the viaduct tunnel where Dudley Dursley is attacked by dementors, at the beginning of the 3rd or 4th Harry Potter movie, I think. The viaduct was a more confined space, however, which would have made being approached by strangers (of any kind) even creepier.
I think that was the street where my wife noticed a pile of human excrement as we were walking to the city transit depot. Good times.
west point
Engineer
Only 6 trains a week go thru the IND station. Maybe we need to suspect that nothing will be done until / if the Cardinal becomes daily?? Another daily RT might seal the deal for station improvements? "IF" Cardinal becomes daily opening the station at 2300h and staying until 51 arrives whenever will become expensive for station personnel that have to get overtime?
Hey, I have an idea to have more trains serving Indianapolis. In addition to a daily Cardinal, how about having a seperate Corridor train to/from Chicago, just like the Borealis and Empire Builder? We could call it the "Hoosier State!" Why didn't anybody ever think of that before?
There are already Corridor trains/combinations of Midwest Corridor trains which can take passengers to Michigan, Missouri, Wisconsin, and (soon) Minnesota, so why not Indiana as well? I like that idea!Hey, I have an idea to have more trains serving Indianapolis. In addition to a daily Cardinal, how about having a seperate Corridor train to/from Chicago, just like the Borealis and Empire Builder? We could call it the "Hoosier State!" Why didn't anybody ever think of that before?
Simple answer: Those states pay for those services. Indiana is not willing to.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
It would have been there already had the State of Indiana not withdrawn all funding for it. It ain't coming back until Indiana steps upto the plate.
Indiana is extremely generous with NICTD, but will not spend a penny for an Amtrak service.
Yes, all kinds of possibilities that would simply use part of a LD route. They should be fairly easy and economical, but look how long it took the Borealis to launch.Hey, I have an idea to have more trains serving Indianapolis. In addition to a daily Cardinal, how about having a separate Corridor train to/from Chicago, just like the Borealis and Empire Builder? We could call it the "Hoosier State!" Why didn't anybody ever think of that before?
Perhaps IN thinks they will not get an acceptable return for the investment, which is almost certain.
There is no "return on investment" per se to any state supporting rail service. Michigan, California, Washington, Virginia, New York, etc, etc are not expecting to get their money back or turn a profit. They are supporting Corridor services as a public service.
I doubt Indiana is making a buck on the South Shore, either.
I disagree. Their share was a grand total of $3 million. And plenty of people rode the train, even though it had a lousy schedule.
And for their 3 million savings, they paved about half a mile of freeway… which already needs repaving.
JamesWhitcombRiley
Lead Service Attendant
It's a shame to read this about IND station. The Cardinal is likely to go daily, but I suppose on the same schedule. The 3C+D at least has local support, in northeast Ohio. As the big city, with contrasting politics to the state, maybe there is significant local support. Or, as the big city, maybe it's seen as wasteful by the rest of the state, a pretty common thing. It is the state capital though.
The Indiana Passenger Rail Alliance, updated in 2022, has three action items:
On a map you can see the IND station is between high-end downtown hotels and the convention center next to the indoor NFL stadium. I had a memorable few days there with 30,000 firefighters at a convention. The big equipment was parked in the stadium. My partner and I convened the evening before, at a Starbucks on the circle at the Soldiers and Sailors Monument, in the hotel zone, but the monument itself was perhaps not considered ultra safe at night. We struck up a conversation with a family with a singer at the opera next door. Later we went to a canal walk and other places in rolling suburbs (every driveway with a basketball hoop), places that used to be towns. Hurricane Katrina had sent Louisiana chefs far and wide, including a po-boy counter out there. Also went to soul food place east of downtown.
It's not a top ten convention center in size, but it's plenty big. USA Today: "Although Indiana Convention Center isn't near as many attractions or entertainment options as other cities can boast, it gets top marks for being near hotels and restaurants. And if you're a football fan, it's pretty thrilling to be across the street from Andrew Luck and the Colts come fall."
The Indiana Passenger Rail Alliance, updated in 2022, has three action items:
- Requesting funding in the form of federal grants to develop future passenger rail concepts
- Demanding Improvements to Indianapolis Union Station
- Establishing the Hard Tech Corridor to connect Purdue University's campuses
On a map you can see the IND station is between high-end downtown hotels and the convention center next to the indoor NFL stadium. I had a memorable few days there with 30,000 firefighters at a convention. The big equipment was parked in the stadium. My partner and I convened the evening before, at a Starbucks on the circle at the Soldiers and Sailors Monument, in the hotel zone, but the monument itself was perhaps not considered ultra safe at night. We struck up a conversation with a family with a singer at the opera next door. Later we went to a canal walk and other places in rolling suburbs (every driveway with a basketball hoop), places that used to be towns. Hurricane Katrina had sent Louisiana chefs far and wide, including a po-boy counter out there. Also went to soul food place east of downtown.
It's not a top ten convention center in size, but it's plenty big. USA Today: "Although Indiana Convention Center isn't near as many attractions or entertainment options as other cities can boast, it gets top marks for being near hotels and restaurants. And if you're a football fan, it's pretty thrilling to be across the street from Andrew Luck and the Colts come fall."
Well, the South Shore is a real commuter line that carries a lot of people and probably takes a lot of cars off the highway and provides access to Chicago for all the people in Northern Indiana. A once-a-day Amtrak corridor train with a schedule that may not be convenient to all running on tracks owned by freight railroads that are barely cooperative doesn't exactly provide a service that a lot of people would want to use. To have a proper Indianapolis-Chicago corridor service would probably require all sorts of track improvements and a multiple trip schedule that would cost billions.
There's also the issue that support of the South Shore has a lot of political support from the local areas along the route and the elected politicians who represent those areas. People along the Indianapolis-Chicago corridor may have other priorities.
As for the IND Station, it once had a beautiful station but it is now leased to the Crown Plaza hotel chain with many retail and professional rental offices in the main structure. The historic station still sits near the current station which in reality is in a basement below the train shed.
The cities of Indianapolis and Lafayette supported the Hoosier State to the extent they kicked in their own municipal funds as part of the subsidy. They also lobbied hard against it being defunded on the state level.
A revived Hoosier State should run on a different and more convienent schedule than just taking the Card's slot four days a week, which has terrible times at Indy. The call times at Indy were a big part of the problem with it. Note I am not talking about speeding it up, just not leaving Indy at the crack of dawn and arriving at midnight.
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You appear to be deliberately misunderstanding. The return would be in the form of acceptable train service that the Indiana public will use. If the private outfit couldn't do it it's a certainty Amtrak cannot.
I interpreted the term your use of the term "return on investment" as it is commonly understood and defined.
toddinde
OBS Chief
You have reasonable standards. How that Indy nightmare was ever allowed to transpire is really sad. The steep staircase alone is outrageous. An Indy cop friend of mine used to have sting operations in the bathroom which was frequented by drug dealers and prostitutes. I’ve used that station many times, but asking my daughter to come down there at midnight to pick me up is a heavy lift.
As far as "return on investment" on public transportation it hardly ever will occur. Greyhound/Trailways may squeak out a profit but for municipal transportation systems they are there as a public service, like police, firefighters and sanitation services. Amtrak was chartered as a for profit corporation but it never made a profit. New corridor service on the Cardinal route will only happen if the state of Indiana decides it is necessary but it wasn't much more than two passengers cars added to the Cardinal a few days per week.
The routing of the present "Cardinal" is ridiculous. Granted that the track would need major upgrades, but the former New York Central routing from Cincinnati to Chicago could be upgraded to 110 mph and should be able to cut a fair amount of time of the fastest "James Whitcomb Riley's" 3:35 one with morning, noon and late afternoon departures. I question the validity of the old Monon route used at present as, with the exception of Lafayette", has such small population numbers. The NYC route would cover Lafayette.
Sometimes, I drive down from Columbus, OH to South Shore, KY to watch the Cardinal come through (a few times a year), and I was surprised by last night's (7/19/24) power on #51, it was one of the phase 7 P42s. I was not expecting that (I was expecting either a phase 7 ALC or a phase 5 P42). It was a treat to see this come through.
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The Penn Central's James Whitcomb Riley prior to Amtrak was well patronized between Indianapolis and Chicago's Central Station via the former New York Central/Illinois Central route through Kankakee. Once the train reached the IC mainline at Kankakee, it would fly up the welded rail line and even if it was a little late arriving at Kankakee, it would on time at Central Station. It left Indianspolis mid morning and arrived in Chicago around 1PM. The return train left Central Station around 3:50PM and got into Indianapolis 8:30-9PM. It, of course, ran to and from Cincinnati. That continue at the beginning of Amtrak, but the Penn Central tracks deteriorated so the time keeping was horrible. For a while the train used the former C&O route which bipassed Indianapolis. The full former New York Central from Kankakee to Cincinnati doesn't exist. The State of Indiana should have bought this line for future high speed service. Unfortunately Indianapolis Union Station is a dinosaur left over from a bi gone era.
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