CN Rouses Point Track (Adirondack)

[BlackDiamond]

I wonder if working with the city of Montreal either the local government or the chamber of commerce or whatever equivalent they have there might help as there should be interest in something that will potentially bring tourists spending $$$ into Montreal.

 

[Amtrak25]

I wonder if working with the city of Montreal either the local government or the chamber of commerce or whatever equivalent they have there might help as there should be interest in something that will potentially bring tourists spending $$$ into Montreal.

Far better approach. They have political influence.

 

[jiml]

I've always thought there are likely more New Yorkers headed to Montreal by train than in the other direction. The beauty of upstate NY and visiting a unique "Euro" city without crossing the ocean are definitely attractive. On the other hand, Quebecers can have similar scenery without leaving the province and if they need to get to NYC are likely to prefer one of the average 28 daily flights between the cities. Other trips, such as cross-border shopping, are unlikely to be done by train. That leaves little more than family visits and railfanning to augment the southbound ridership. Just not seeing Quebec's interest in spending any money for this. Montreal itself, with less influence and tourist dollars to spend, is happy to encourage American visits but the train supplies a very small number of them compared to other sources. More than one daily train could help.

As mentioned by others, with diminished service on the line CN's incentive to fix the track is zero.

 

[Amtrak25]

There's also quite a few Aussie & New Zealanders on this train, who get shunted off to the dinette car to buy Visas they didn't realize they had to get.

Montreal and Quebec if nothing else would want the trains for PR and political reasons to show two significant Canadian and American cities are directly connected by a train, which is also why the Maple Leaf is back, even though VIA Rail has little interest in it, carries very few passengers both across the border and within Canada, has ridiculously high fares in Canada, and is a money pit for them.

Amtrak's relationship with CN is awful to begin with because of CN's treatment of Carbondale trains on the IC, even with Senator Durbin involved. So much for Congressional involvement.

Amtrak for once needs to put aside their secretive culture and disclose how long a trip would take between Lacolle and Central Station. They know that due to their qualification trips. CN supposedly told Stefanik they are ready to handle the train, but we don't know how long it would take. They also don't care if it goes 15 MPH for half the trip. VIA Rail's Jonquire train goes slower and slower the farther north it gets.

Need to seriously look at rerouting on the CP, with which Amtrak has good relations, and keeps the dispatching down to one Class I railroad, plus EXO. but I think people are overly concerned with the Lucien L'Allier station situation. It is still better than taking Greyhound/Trailways all the way, which also misses some of the D&H towns.

 

[jiml]

Need to seriously look at rerouting on the CP, with which Amtrak has good relations, and keeps the dispatching down to one Class I railroad, plus EXO. but I think people are overly concerned with the Lucien L'Allier station situation. It is still better than taking Greyhound/Trailways all the way, which also misses some of the D&H towns.

On this we are in complete agreement. There is no reason for Amtrak to run to Central Station unless their trains connect to VIA. They used to but no longer do for various reasons. Amtrak passengers can't use the lounge and, as we all know, C&I is not done there. You're obviously familiar with the geography so know how very close the two stations are. Does Amtrak really care if their train terminates at a lowly commuter station adjacent to hotels, restaurants and shops? It's not like Gare Central is some glamourous edifice. It's NYP before Moynihan. Contract EXO to service the train and we're good to go.

 

[Bonser]

On this we are in complete agreement. There is no reason for Amtrak to run to Central Station unless their trains connect to VIA. They used to but no longer do for various reasons. Amtrak passengers can't use the lounge and, as we all know, C&I is not done there. You're obviously familiar with the geography so know how very close the two stations are. Does Amtrak really care if their train terminates at a lowly commuter station adjacent to hotels, restaurants and shops? It's not like Gare Central is some glamourous edifice. It's NYP before Moynihan. Contract EXO to service the train and we're good to go.

Generally agree with you except for your some dismissive description of Gare Centrale. Central Station's main waiting area is quite beautiful - much more so than Moynihan's NYP - with its bas relief and scores of shops. It's one of my favorite stations and has the vibe of a vibrant city station.

 

[Amtrak25]

Central Station is nicer than NYPS, and far less tolerant of the vagrancy situation. But the only amenities useful to Amtrak are various cafes and stores throughout the station and a huge taxi stand on the Gauchetière street side. It is nice to brown bag it as an alternative to Amtrak's cafe grub, so plan ahead. It is the equivalent of LIRR Hunterspoint Avenue.

Amtrak thinks nothing of creepy stations like Indianapolis, so I don’t know why this one should be a problem. They only staff it because Congress told them to. Less of a schlep to the Orange line as well, and no stairs down to the tracks. Be nice if the platforms had canopies for Montreal's crappy winters, but they don't. Montreal has nice hotels and restaurants all over the place. I don't think walking directly into the Fairmont Queen E is an issue.

Obviously Amtrak crews would have to qualify for the route, and stay out of the way of the EXO Candiac trains, which are few and far between. Intermediate stops at Montreal West or Vendome would be great. 32 miles of CP would be cease to be freight only. This obviously rules out an extended Vermonter someday, but that will remain even more of a figment of the imagination than C&I in Central Station.

 

[jis]

Something that I had noticed while passing through CN Cantic caused me to go back to Google Maps just now to verify whether what I recalled has any basis in fact and it indeed does....

There is an existing disused RoW between Cantic CN and Lacolle CP which is a continuation of the track from St, Albans to Cantic. It is currently occupied by a trail which has left more than adequate space to throw in a track. The total distance of restored track needed is about a mile and a quarter. So with a little investment even the Vermont train could be brought over to CP and then via CP to the EXO station in Montreal. The question as usual would be, is there the will to do so in Quebec?

 

[Amtrak25]

Yes, it is 1.8km. It also looks like there was once a connecting track from the CP northbound, turning right 90 degrees to the CN at Cantic forming a nice grassy triangle within. There is a marked pedestrian crosswalk to access the trail across Route 223, the Canadian extension of US11. I can't imagine laying down a mile of track is difficult. It is not like it needs 132 lb rail, concrete ties, and be good for 79 MPH, though I am sure someone would make a mountain out of a molehill of it, to say nothing of NIMBY's.

For the Vermonter, some entity has to spend money for CN's requirements as it is: remote control of the switch at Cantic, Quebec and for the Alburgh trestle's movement.

Then the Vermonter crews have to learn French, learn Canadian railroad regs, qualify for whatever route, and if on the CN, be prepared to fight off CN labor unions who want to crew the train north of St Albans because of historical precedent with the Montrealer. That is what was told to me by the Essex Jct station attendant about 8 years ago.

 

[jiml]

I wasn't trying to slag Montreal Central Station - just saying it's nothing special, unlike many other big city stations in Canada and the US.

 

[fdaley]

I remember riding the Napierville route on the Adirondack a couple of times in the '90s when the Victoria Bridge was under repair. From Rouses Point we made it to the island of Montreal in well less than an hour on track that was much smoother than the clunky CN route through St. Jean. But then we went into CP's St. Luc yard and commenced a lengthy maneuver that saw us eventually wind up in Central Station. The part from St. Luc onward more than ate up the time savings from the Napierville routing; still, we proved it was possible to go that way and wind up at Gare Centrale. It might still be quicker overall than taking the St. Jean route in its current condition.

I do think that Gare Centrale is way nicer than pre-Moynihan NYP, and certainly better than Lucien L'Allier as a place to arrive. But perhaps the latter could be improved. On my day trips from northern New York in recent years, I learned that if you get off the train at Lucien L'Allier and bear to the right inside the station, you can go through a set of doors and walk a block-long corridor to wind up in the old Windsor Station concourse, which is still a more impressive public space that the Lucien L'Allier terminal itself. I don't know who controls that space now, but lots of commuters are still walking through it on their way to other destinations.

 

[Amtrak25]

I remember riding the Napierville route on the Adirondack a couple of times in the '90s when the Victoria Bridge was under repair. From Rouses Point we made it to the island of Montreal in well less than an hour on track that was much smoother than the clunky CN route through St. Jean. But then we went into CP's St. Luc yard and commenced a lengthy maneuver that saw us eventually wind up in Central Station. The part from St. Luc onward more than ate up the time savings from the Napierville routing; still, we proved it was possible to go that way and wind up at Gare Centrale. It might still be quicker overall than taking the St. Jean route in its current condition.

I do think that Gare Centrale is way nicer than pre-Moynihan NYP, and certainly better than Lucien L'Allier as a place to arrive. But perhaps the latter could be improved. On my day trips from northern New York in recent years, I learned that if you get off the train at Lucien L'Allier and bear to the right inside the station, you can go through a set of doors and walk a block-long corridor to wind up in the old Windsor Station concourse, which is still a more impressive public space that the Lucien L'Allier terminal itself. I don't know who controls that space now, but lots of commuters are still walking through it on their way to other destinations.

Never knew that reroute happened, probably with a CP pilot.
Goes to show it can be done and the world didn't crack.

Montreal West to Lucien L'Allier takes 12 minutes on an EXO train, so the trip would probably take 75 minutes from Rouses Point. People could walk slowly from Lucien L'Allier to Central Station and still get there sooner than the Adirondack would have schlepped in on the CN on the 2019 schedule.

Arrange for a food truck on the street for 68's departure, and a street vendor for souvenirs. Done.

Since Canadian Customs in "Lacolle" is 2 miles north of where the CP and CN split in Rouses Pt, how did they do it ?

 

[fdaley]

Never knew that reroute happened, probably with a CP pilot.
Goes to show it can be done and the world didn't crack.

Montreal West to Lucien L'Allier takes 12 minutes on an EXO train, so the trip would probably take 75 minutes from Rouses Point. People could walk slowly from Lucien L'Allier to Central Station and still get there sooner than the Adirondack would have schlepped in on the CN on the 2019 schedule.

Arrange for a food truck on the street for 68's departure, and a street vendor for souvenirs. Done.

Since Canadian Customs in "Lacolle" is 2 miles north of where the CP and CN split in Rouses Pt, how did they do it ?

On the northbound run, the train just stopped at the old Lacolle depot, where the Canadian customs officers came aboard. It was 1996, i.e. pre-9/11, so things were simpler, and it hadn't been that many years since the Adirondack was following that route regularly.

To me, shaving half an hour or more off the travel time from the border to downtown Montreal would be a big plus and would compensate to some extent for arriving/departing from a crappy terminal. And it might be possible to improve that terminal in ways that would benefit the local commuters too. (Platform canopies, anyone?)

Besides its much more extensive food court, losing Central Station would mean losing access to the VIA staff who are used to helping longer-distance travelers with baggage, connections and other services. And by virtue of being the city's main train station, it just has more a center of gravity with more shops, services, taxis, etc.

And there would be some loss of connectivity. The northbound Adirondack hasn't connected to anything in recent years, and even before that the connection to the Ocean was dicey at best. But it was still possible to make a same-day connection to the southbound from Ottawa or Quebec. I'd guess that was a small portion of the Adirondack's ridership though.

 

[Amtrak25]

On the northbound run, the train just stopped at the old Lacolle depot, where the Canadian customs officers came aboard. It was 1996, i.e. pre-9/11, so things were simpler, and it hadn't been that many years since the Adirondack was following that route regularly.

Lookin at Google Satellite, I don't see any structures along the ROW now. The must have knocked it down.

The CBSA trailer along the CN track is right next to the highway facility, so CBSA would probably make a fuss on where to haul it to on the CP, which is across a farm from Route 223.

 

[jiml]

The nice VIA connection to the Adirondack was the overnight Toronto-Montreal train, called the Enterprise in its last hurrah. Worked in both directions and avoided an overnight in Montreal.

 

[Mailliw]

Far better approach. They have political influence.

Apparently they don't have enough influence to make any progress on preclearance at Gare Centrale, which is depressing. Nor does it bode well for the NYC-MONTREAL night train people keep dreaming off.

 

[fdaley]

Lookin at Google Satellite, I don't see any structures along the ROW now. The must have knocked it down.

The CBSA trailer along the CN track is right next to the highway facility, so CBSA would probably make a fuss on where to haul it to on the CP, which is across a farm from Route 223.

The Lacolle station was a big stone, chateau-style structure. Really a shame if they took it down. It was at 23 Rue Ste. Marie -- I can see photos on Google Maps, but they're from 2011. I thought I had seen it more recently than that, but perhaps it was nearly a decade ago.

 

[fdaley]

The nice VIA connection to the Adirondack was the overnight Toronto-Montreal train, called the Enterprise in its last hurrah. Worked in both directions and avoided an overnight in Montreal.

That was a great train. I only managed to use it once in its Enterprise incarnation. A lower berth was a bargain compared with Montreal and Toronto hotel prices, and I still remember the fresh strawberries that were included in the continental breakfast in the Park car on the way into Montreal.

 

[jiml]

The Lacolle station was a big stone, chateau-style structure. Really a shame if they took it down. It was at 23 Rue Ste. Marie -- I can see photos on Google Maps, but they're from 2011. I thought I had seen it more recently than that, but perhaps it was nearly a decade ago.

 

[Amtrak25]

The Lacolle station was a big stone, chateau-style structure. Really a shame if they took it down. It was at 23 Rue Ste. Marie -- I can see photos on Google Maps, but they're from 2011. I thought I had seen it more recently than that, but perhaps it was nearly a decade ago.

OK. It's was there in 2011, just a lot farther north than where I was looking.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.081...qM20zSAD9pkBlVpO0mzw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

 

[Bob Dylan]

The nice VIA connection to the Adirondack was the overnight Toronto-Montreal train, called the Enterprise in its last hurrah. Worked in both directions and avoided an overnight in Montreal.

One of my favorite VIA Trains, especially when you could do a Cross Platform Transfer to the Canadian upon arrival into Union Station early in the AM.

 

[jis]

Here is 2022 Google imagery of Lacolle station:

 

[jiml]

One of my favorite VIA Trains, especially when you could do a Cross Platform Transfer to the Canadian upon arrival into Union Station early in the AM.

Yes, that was its function when the Montreal section of the Canadian was discontinued.

That was a great train. I only managed to use it once in its Enterprise incarnation. A lower berth was a bargain compared with Montreal and Toronto hotel prices, and I still remember the fresh strawberries that were included in the continental breakfast in the Park car on the way into Montreal.

Sadly the lowers went away when they transitioned to the Renaissance fleet and the Park car could be hit or miss during its final years.

 

[Amtrak25]

The nice VIA connection to the Adirondack was the overnight Toronto-Montreal train, called the Enterprise in its last hurrah. Worked in both directions and avoided an overnight in Montreal.

I don't know if Amtrak would wait for a VIA train to arrive, so it was a connection only if you were lucky. I rode the Enterprise twice into Montreal, was 40 minutes late each time despite sitting west of Brockville during the night to kill 3 hours, and the Quebec remote train departed without it.

You could still ride early morning trains from Quebec City or Ottawa and make 68. I suppose you could bail out at St Lambert in a pinch, but Amtrak maye not stop there if no one is on their manifest.

Whichever station they use, there are EXO commuter trains to some place or another. The Deux Montagnes route, which was the busiest, is gone until such time they open the REM thing.

 

[jiml]

Here is 2022 Google imagery of Lacolle station:

View attachment 28980

Nice grab! I'm surprised no one has turned it into a restaurant or similar.