Current Downeaster discussion

[fdaley]

You'd think I'd remember this, but isn't there a station on the Downeaster where the train has to backup a mile or so to get in or out of the station? Any way track can be laid to prevent this?

I don't think it's all of a mile, but the train does have to reverse direction to get into and out of the Portland station. There has been discussion of building a new station with platforms along the main line to eliminate the need for this maneuver. The current station is an intermodal facility with intercity buses, however, so relocating all of that would be a fairly ambitious project.

 

[daybeers]

The recent $500k includes study for the Portland station relocation.

 

[BlackDiamond]

You'd think I'd remember this, but isn't there a station on the Downeaster where the train has to backup a mile or so to get in or out of the station? Any way track can be laid to prevent this?

That would be Portland where the Downeaster leaves the main line and backs up a mile or so on the Mountain Division to reach the Portland Transportation Center. There has been talk of relocating the station on the mainline but nothing concrete yet. Of course in doing so you lose the connection to the Concord Coach and local transit buses that exists at the PTC.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The recent $500k includes study for the Portland station relocation.

I hadn't seen mention of that, I heard the 500k was to study a new station in Falmouth and the Rockland extension. Hopefully more details will be forthcoming soon .

 

[jis]

I hadn't seen mention of that, I heard the 500k was to study a new station in Falmouth and the Rockland extension. Hopefully more details will be forthcoming soon .

What the announcement says about this is:

Downeaster Corridor (Up to $500,000)
Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority

The proposed corridor would improve the existing Amtrak Downeaster corridor, connecting Boston, MA, to Brunswick, ME, via Portland, ME, southwestern coastal Maine and southeastern New Hampshire, with an extension east to Rockland, ME. The proposed corridor would also include added frequencies, reduced travel times, improved reliability, a new infill station at West Falmouth, ME, and technology improvements to make it easier for passengers to connect between the Downeaster and other Amtrak services in Boston (where the Downeaster serves a different station from all other Amtrak routes). The corridor sponsor would enter Step 1 of the program to develop a scope, schedule, and cost estimate for preparing, completing, or documenting its service development plan.

I wonder what they have in mind in the way of technology improvement to make it easier to connect to other Amtrak service in Boston.

 

[Bonser]

What the announcement says about this is:


I wonder what they have in mind in the way of technology improvement to make it easier to connect to other Amtrak service in Boston.

The best one could hope for is an Amtrak shuttle bus between South and North stations. That would be expensive for the relatively few connecting passengers. As. it's only a $10 cab ride or a $2.40 Charlie card ride I really don't see any Amtrak assistance coming anytime soon.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

What the announcement says about this is:


I wonder what they have in mind in the way of technology improvement to make it easier to connect to other Amtrak service in Boston.

Probably a wayfinding app that tells you to take to Orange Line to Back Bay station.

 

[Brian Battuello]

Nah, probably just paying a person to stand at the entrance of North Station and give you directions

But back to the Downeaster, I should have remembered about Portland. For some reason I was thinking it was some minor stop. Having a stop you have to reverse out of it is just so Amtrak...

 

[jis]

Nah, probably just paying a person to stand at the entrance of North Station and give you directions

But back to the Downeaster, I should have remembered about Portland. For some reason I was thinking it was some minor stop. Having a stop you have to reverse out of it is just so Amtrak...

Actually in the rest of the world reversing out of a station en route is not uncommon at all. There are trains routes that reverse multiple times en route.

In the US it is relatively unusual. But still there is Denver, Los Angeles (for San Diego - Santa Barbara etc.), Philadelphia (Keystone, Pennsylvanian), Portland ME. When the Sunset ran to the East there was New Orleans.

I should add that Denver is more like Portland ME IIRC, in that the train reverses in from a Wye and departs facing forward. Similarly, I believe the Sunset reversed in from a Wye into New Orleans and departed forward.

 

[fdaley]

Actually in the rest of the world reversing out of a station en route is not uncommon at all. There are trains routes that reverse multiple times en route.

In the US it is relatively unusual. But still there is Denver, Los Angeles (for San Diego - Santa Barbara etc.), Philadelphia (Keystone, Pennsylvanian), Portland ME. When the Sunset ran to the East there was New Orleans.

I should add that Denver is more like Portland ME IIRC, in that the train reverses in from a Wye and departs facing forward. Similarly, I believe the Sunset reversed in from a Wye into New Orleans and departed forward.

Also the Ethan Allen now must reverse direction to get out of Rutland. And when I rode it southbound earlier this month, for some reason it crossed the Hudson River bridge and turned north onto the old Troy branch, then reversed direction again into the Rensselaer station.

 

[Brian Battuello]

Another local news story with a bit more info about the Downeaster and especially the Rockland extension.

https://www.pressherald.com/2023/12...downeaster-extension-eyed-with-federal-grant/
The article says that "Amtrak" now owns the Brunswick-Rockland line. Is that correct? Last time I looked it was owned by a curmudgeon with a taste for defunct airline names, and then it went through a merger.

 

[jis]

Another local news story with a bit more info about the Downeaster and especially the Rockland extension.

https://www.pressherald.com/2023/12...downeaster-extension-eyed-with-federal-grant/
The article says that "Amtrak" now owns the Brunswick-Rockland line. Is that correct? Last time I looked it was owned by a curmudgeon with a taste for defunct airline names, and then it went through a merger.

I believe the Maine Department of Transportation owns the line since 1987. I have not heard of any transfer of ownership to Amtrak, and in fact I would find such a transaction to be quite surprising.

A somewhat irregular service is operated on parts of that line by the Midcoast Railservice company.

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/me/ma...-rail-service-between-brunswick-and-rockland-

 

[Rasputin]

With freight service on the Rockland branch now virtually defunct, it would be most unwise to spend money on what would most likely be a seasonal passenger service to Rockland with Amtrak possibly taking over all of the costs of maintaining the branch much like the situation with the Southwest Chief on the Raton Pass route.

It would be far better in my opinion to try to extend passenger rail to either Lewiston or Augusta.

I also think the plan to build a new station in Portland to avoid the back-up move would be ill-advised as it would break the connection with the Concord bus system which shares the present station with Amtrak. There is a back-up move in Portland - live with it and use the funds for something more important.

 

[BlackDiamond]

With freight service on the Rockland branch now virtually defunct, it would be most unwise to spend money on what would most likely be a seasonal passenger service to Rockland with Amtrak possibly taking over all of the costs of maintaining the branch much like the situation with the Southwest Chief on the Raton Pass route.

It would be far better in my opinion to try to extend passenger rail to either Lewiston or Augusta.

I also think the plan to build a new station in Portland to avoid the back-up move would be ill-advised as it would break the connection with the Concord bus system which shares the present station with Amtrak. There is a back-up move in Portland - live with it and use the funds for something more important.

I would imagine any extension of Amtrak service to Rockland would have to be subsidized by the state of Maine, as the Downeaster is via the NNEPRA.

I agree that the station in Portland should stay where it is. It's true that the station is not close to downtown but there is really no location along the existing mainline that is any more convenient. At least at the PTC you have the Concord Coach connection as you mention, plenty of parking spaces and good access from I-295. There is decent local bus service from there to downtown.

There was once a discussion about adding a wye track so that trains could run directly into the station then change ends and run directly out. It would mean passengers would be riding backward part of the way (most likely they would set it up so that the major part of the trip from Boston to Portland they would be facing forward). I don't know whatever happened to that proposal. Seems to me you would be adding in the need to do a brake test which might eat up some of the time you are saving.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Nah, probably just paying a person to stand at the entrance of North Station and give you directions

But back to the Downeaster, I should have remembered about Portland. For some reason I was thinking it was some minor stop. Having a stop you have to reverse out of it is just so Amtrak...

I thought that was an issue with faregates/turnstiles @ North Station? Though I like all these ideas better...

 

[BlackDiamond]

It would be far better in my opinion to try to extend passenger rail to either Lewiston or Augusta.

From the point of view of population, Lewiston and Auburn together are about 64,000 people, ranking 2nd and 5th respectively in population of state cities. OTOH Augusta ranks 13th with a population of ~19K. Continuing on to Waterville (15.8k) and Bangor (3rd largest at 31.6k) would be more useful although requiring considerably more track to be upgraded plus dealing with CSX (former PanAm) whereas the L/A extension could be done using the former St. Lawrence & Atlantic (ex Grand Trunk) line now OOS between Yarmouth Junction and Danville Junction with a station near the Auburn Airport, not terribly convenient to either downtown but any alternative that goes downtown such as the CSX mainline has other issues such as station siting.

 

[Rasputin]

From the point of view of population, Lewiston and Auburn together are about 64,000 people, ranking 2nd and 5th respectively in population of state cities. OTOH Augusta ranks 13th with a population of ~19K. Continuing on to Waterville (15.8k) and Bangor (3rd largest at 31.6k) would be more useful although requiring considerably more track to be upgraded plus dealing with CSX (former PanAm) whereas the L/A extension could be done using the former St. Lawrence & Atlantic (ex Grand Trunk) line now OOS between Yarmouth Junction and Danville Junction with a station near the Auburn Airport, not terribly convenient to either downtown but any alternative that goes downtown such as the CSX mainline has other issues such as station siting.

Yes extending to Bangor would be much better but I don't think the funds available in the foreseeable future would go that far.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Yes extending to Bangor would be much better but I don't think the funds available in the foreseeable future would go that far.

Agreed. And Concord Coach currently has 5 bus trips a day between Bangor and Portland/Boston, 4 direct and one via the coastal route. The 4 direct trips via the turnpike are probably faster than an equivalent train trip.

 

[Rambling Robert]

I remember in the early 2000s the Downeaster went right into downtown Portland and then a shuttle bus picked you up and drove you around the city.. cheap.

Why can’t Amtrak stop where it’s currently stops and then go downtown and drop off passengers there!!!

At the current Portland station - I felt it very difficult to get ground transportation, such as a shuttle bus and a taxi. The taxi itself cost over $20, which was more than the deal of the fare for the Amtrak DownEaster.

 

[Eric S]

I remember in the early 1980s the Downeaster went right into downtown Portland and then a shuttle bus picked you up and drove you around the city.. cheap.

Why can’t Amtrak stop where it’s currently stops and then go downtown and drop off passengers there!!!

At the current Portland station - I felt it very difficult to get ground transportation, such as a shuttle bus and a taxi. The taxi itself cost over $20, which was more than the deal of the fare for the Amtrak DownEaster.

I'm confused. The Downeaster began operation in the early 2000s. The previous pre-Amtrak rail service ended in the 1960s. Was there some other rail passenger service in the 1980s?

 

[BlackDiamond]

I remember in the early 1980s the Downeaster went right into downtown Portland and then a shuttle bus picked you up and drove you around the city.. cheap.

Why can’t Amtrak stop where it’s currently stops and then go downtown and drop off passengers there!!!

At the current Portland station - I felt it very difficult to get ground transportation, such as a shuttle bus and a taxi. The taxi itself cost over $20, which was more than the deal of the fare for the Amtrak DownEaster.

If that is true I wonder how they did that as there are no tracks that go downtown and haven't been for a long time.
The closest you can get today is Yard 8 along Commercial St. an industrial area along the Fore River and still some way from downtown.

There is the former Grand Trunk right of way from the swing bridge near the B&M Bean factory which runs down to the Port area but it is currently occupied by the Maine Narrow Gauge RR. It looks like the ROW still exists as far as Commercial St. but it would be tough to fit a station in anywhere in that area. And that would require an even longer backup move that the current one, unless you could somehow build a connection from there to the main line heading south.

 

[jis]

I remember in the early 1980s the Downeaster went right into downtown Portland and then a shuttle bus picked you up and drove you around the city.. cheap.

I can't find any record of any passenger service, much less Downeaster Service in Portland ME in 1980s. Could you perhaps provide a citation so that we can all learn? Thanks

 

[Rasputin]

There was a ski train that operated over the Grand Trunk from Portland to Bethel, Maine for one or two years in the 1980s or 1990s. It used the Swedish passenger cars which had been acquired by the Belfast & Moosehead Lake RR for its summer excursion service. I don't know what it used as a terminal in Portland, perhaps the Grand Trunk yard. Perhaps that is what the poster is thinking about.

 

[jis]

There was a ski train that operated over the Grand Trunk from Portland to Bethel, Maine for one or two years in the 1980s or 1990s. It used the Swedish passenger cars which had been acquired by the Belfast & Moosehead Lake RR for its summer excursion service. I don't know what it used as a terminal in Portland, perhaps the Grand Trunk yard. Perhaps that is what the poster is thinking about.

The Ski Train apparently operated from 1993 and was discontinued in 1997. Naturally, it was a seasonal service, and according to everything that I can find on it it apparently ran from Portland to Bethel

A little digging brought up this article about it:

https://wjbq.com/do-you-remember-the-short-lived-ski-train-from-portland-to-bethel-maine/
And here is a Wikiwand article on the same train:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Silver_Bullet_Express

 

[fdaley]

There was a ski train that operated over the Grand Trunk from Portland to Bethel, Maine for one or two years in the 1980s or 1990s. It used the Swedish passenger cars which had been acquired by the Belfast & Moosehead Lake RR for its summer excursion service. I don't know what it used as a terminal in Portland, perhaps the Grand Trunk yard. Perhaps that is what the poster is thinking about.

It was the mid-1990s. I never found an occasion to ride it. I believe Les Otten, who was the owner of the Sunday River ski area in Bethel at the time, was the prime mover behind it and talked hopefully at the time about connecting in Portland to the still-under-discussion Downeaster service. But it took so long for the Downeaster to actually get rolling (I believe in late 2001) that the ski train was already dead by the time it did.

Otherwise, the only regularly scheduled passenger rail service in Maine in the 1980s and '90s was the VIA Atlantic except when it was suspended from November 1981 till June 1985. Going anywhere to the south required driving to the MBTA railheads at Haverhill, Ipswich or Lowell, which I did many times in that era, or driving west to the Montrealer line.