Derailment of Cascades #501, DuPont WA, 2017-12-18

[Rover]

Not sure if this is the same train model or what the curve radius is at the bridge. This is from Talgo for the Talgo XXI diesel tilting train:

What use is this data, if the lead engine, the Siemens Charger diesel-electric, doesn't have the same curve performance as the Talgo cars??

 

[TrackWalker]

Not sure if this is the same train model or what the curve radius is at the bridge. This is from Talgo for the Talgo XXI diesel tilting train:

Talgo promotional speeds are more likely higher than allowable FRA track standard speeds for curves and BNSF track engineering standards (which I presume is what Sound Transit built to) which is even slower than FRA

 

[west point]

The engineer and conductor were qualified. However how long ago was their last trip(s) over a new route ?

 

[user 1215]

The weird thing about this crash is not that the train derailed; its where it derailed. The force overload happened too quickly. The locomotive should have entered the curve too fast, leaned a bit too far, and then overcome its wheel flange, leaving the track at an angle and leaning somewhat out of the curve, pulling cars with it. The effect would be even more pronounced if the brakes were applied at some point, but it should have happened with out braking force, too.

That is not what happened. What appears to have happened is the locomotive left the track almost immediately tangential to the curve, as if its wheels never evenbriefly followed the curve. 80 is nowhere near fast enough for that. The locomotive appears to have gone straight, dead arrow straight, right off of the track. It didnt appear to barrel roll. A few cars tried to follow it, but at some point the rest of the cars seem to follow the curve.

The physics before me do not make sense without some kind of external actor or equipment malfunction causing bizarre attitude prior to or upon the train entering that curve.

As always, news reports should be taken lightly, but I just saw a news guy doing a crash analysis, and he mentioned that the Charger left the tracks just where the new concrete ties end, and the old wooden ties start.

I dunno. Based on this photo, the concrete ties end before the curve. I can't imagine the majority of the cars derailing tangent to the curve as opposed to making significant impact to the earthwork if it had gone straight.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/19/us/amtrak-derailment-washington.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I’m wondering if they are benching the Talgo equipment entirely.

 

[Anderson]

I'm just guessing, but it sounds like most of the fatalities are going to wind up being in the Business Class car (since I rather strongly suspect that Jim and Zach would have been in BC...the upgrade cost on the Cascades tends to be relatively trivial and I know that Charlie, at least, tends to upgrade)...which probably means that it was the BC cars that got totally wrecked (Charlie said that two of the cars are sufficiently damaged to be write-offs, with the rest of the set in varying degrees of bad shape).

 

[jis]

Not sure if this is the same train model or what the curve radius is at the bridge. This is from Talgo for the Talgo XXI diesel tilting train:

750' is a bit less than 250m give or take. So the speed limit for Talgo with European style super-elevation presumably, is around 70kph that is less than 50mph. Then one has to take into consideration that the locomotives are standard US rolling stock and not Talgo special, so their limiting speed is probably lower.

Additionally FRA does not allow as much super-elevation in the US, so that 30mph sounds about right for the speed limit on that curve.

Once the lead engine has gone off on a tangent, the train behind it is bound to follow.

 

[rspenmoll]

What I dont understand is, why was a newly constructed line allowed to open without positive train control in place?

 

[Anderson]

Could they be looking to lease the Wisconsin sets as a stopgap while they look at their options?

Hmmm. It's hard to imagine an arrangement like that coming together in less than 36 hours, but maybe they've put out some initial feelers. Even under the best-case scenario I find it difficult to see that equipment getting out here, and (presumably) tested on the route, in time to go into service by Jan 2.

My guess is that the Jan 2nd date allows them to get through the holiday travel period with some degree of certainty. The temporary schedule could easily be extended. There are probably others on here with a higher level of knowledge about possible options going forward.

Looking over the stand-in schedule, it looks like they're running a Superliner set (sans cafe) on the Oregon portion of the route. Everything else looks like it's roughly the new frequency levels. That suggests, reading even deeper between the lines than is healthy, that it may have been an Oregon-owned set that crashed. Of course, maintaining a predictable service level between Seattle and Portland is likely a significant reason to do this, too.

And I agree that the dates are probably to give them time to sort out what can be done longer-term, though I wouldn't be surprised to see them just bite the bullet on the Wisconsin Talgos at this stage, even as a short-to-medium term lease.

 

[Anderson]

What I dont understand is, why was a newly constructed line allowed to open without positive train control in place?

From what reports are saying, PTC was in place but it wasn't active. Which, if Sound Transit owns the line, means that there's a good chance this will be landing on their doorstep (e.g. "Why wasn't it active?" comes to mind, especially if the engineers were advised "The system will tell you when to slow down for that curve").

 

[user 1215]

I guess what it all comes down to is 1) Was the engineer distracted and did he miss the speed limit sign. If yes, Engineer's fault is most likely. If no, then 2) If the brake was applied, did it malfunction? If yes, mechanical failure. If no, then it's anyone's guess.

It appears through all the photos that I've seen that there is no evidence whatsoever of there being any fouling or sabotage to the track itself.

 

[PRR 60]

Looking over the stand-in schedule, it looks like they're running a Superliner set (sans cafe) on the Oregon portion of the route. Everything else looks like it's roughly the new frequency levels. That suggests, reading even deeper between the lines than is healthy, that it may have been an Oregon-owned set that crashed. Of course, maintaining a predictable service level between Seattle and Portland is likely a significant reason to do this, too.

And I agree that the dates are probably to give them time to sort out what can be done longer-term, though I wouldn't be surprised to see them just bite the bullet on the Wisconsin Talgos at this stage, even as a short-to-medium term lease.

The set that crashed was the Mt. Adams - the former Las Vegas set now owned by Washington State.

 

[niemi24s]

This is the same image as in Post #197 but with a line added to show the continuation of the straight stretch ending at the start of the curve:



The lower arrow points to the approximate position and orientation of the lead locomotive.

 

[CCC1007]

I’m wondering if they are benching the Talgo equipment entirely.

Not very likely.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Bierboy]

NTSB now saying that there was an employee-in-training in the cab with the engineer.

 

[Rover]

NTSB now saying that there was an employee-in-training in the cab with the engineer.

A conductor in training, they said.

The NTSB also said the front facing camera on the front engine was badly damaged and is being sent to HQ to extract what they can.

They said the crew interviews will happen in the next couple of days.

 

[daybeers]

"Day Two" update from Washington State Patrol's blog: https://wspinsideout.wordpress.com/2017/12/19/day-two-mounts-road-train-derailment/

Looks like all the railcars have been removed from the scene, and it seems they're working on removing the Charger from the roadway. WSDOT says it is unlikely I-5 southbound will be opened by Wednesday's morning commute.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

WSDOT #1402 was wrecked this morning when it derailed while hauling Amtrak Cascades #501 on an inaugural run on the new Cascades route. Sadly, 9 passengers were killed and 77 passengers and car motorists sustained injuries. It seems like it's irreparable, but at least the design of it saved the engineer's life, thanks to Siemens!

My thoughts and prayers go to those affected by the accident, as well as the friends and families of those that were killed.

Where are you hearing 9 were killed. Initial reports said 6 but thats been downgraded to 3.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

I asked the same thing in a comment on a Facebook post. "How'd it go from 3 deaths, to 6, to 9, and now back to 3?"

 

[Don Newcomb]

..... and it seems they're working on removing the Charger from the roadway. WSDOT says it is unlikely I-5 southbound will be opened by Wednesday's morning commute.

Yeah, something north of 100 tons is not easy to pick up and pack out.

 

[Ryan]

Amazingly enough, information flow is really challenging in these types of incidents. It's completely unsurprising that basic facts like this are in flux for a bit as things are unfolding. Yet another reason to sit back and watch events unfold, rather than chase down rabbit holes of discussion over "facts" that turn out to be untrue.

 

[west point]

Yes will need one of those multiple axel low boys. Highway overpass clearances a definite problem. Anyone remember the height of a SC-44 then add the low boy height.

 

[MattW]

Even if the PTC on the line segment was ready to be switched on, could they have switched it on without the PTC on the line it connects to being online?

 

[junebug]

So sad for Jim and Zach. Did either one ever post on this forum?

 

[jis]

Even if the PTC on the line segment was ready to be switched on, could they have switched it on without the PTC on the line it connects to being online?

Yes. On the NEC they switched on ACSES, i.e. PTC, in a segments at a time. Some were relatively short segments and some were long ones.

 

[fairviewroad]

Of course, maintaining a predictable service level between Seattle and Portland is likely a significant reason to do this, too.

Since they are not offering cafe service or Business Class service on the replacement train sets, it's easy to see why they want them to be marooned south of PDX. The cafe as well as BC seem to do very well between SEA and PDX. South of PDX, not so much. I've been on BC south of PDX a couple of times and it's a lonely place. But it's frequently sold out north of PDX. They'd be leaving a lot of money on the table if they didn't have that as an option, especially during the upcoming holiday travel period when it's not unusual for coach to sell out on the SEA-PDX section.

I asked the same thing in a comment on a Facebook post. "How'd it go from 3 deaths, to 6, to 9, and now back to 3?"

It didn't. The only officially announced death toll was three. Any other numbers were from unnamed sources that reporters mistakenly assumed to be knowledgeable about the situation.