Derailment of Cascades #501, DuPont WA, 2017-12-18

[KmH]

It is amazing how many reporters apparently don't know the editor's ASSUME adage:

If you assume you'll make an *** out of U and ME.

 

[cirdan]

Im not sure where you are getting your numbers from. The Talgo sets hold 250, the Superliners 75, so you need 4 to match it, 3 would come close. Furthermore, the Superliners COG, while certainly higher than a Talgo, is actually slightly lower than a Amfleet or Horizon because the lower level is sunk relative to a single level. Calling the COG halfway to the moon is something more than hyperbole.

That being said, I do think the Talgos are actually lighter than 4 Superliners, but this is just an impression.

The weird thing about this crash is not that the train derailed; its where it derailed. The force overload happened too quickly. The locomotive should have entered the curve too fast, leaned a bit too far, and then overcome its wheel flange, leaving the track at an angle and leaning somewhat out of the curve, pulling cars with it. The effect would be even more pronounced if the brakes were applied at some point, but it should have happened with out braking force, too.

That is not what happened. What appears to have happened is the locomotive left the track almost immediately tangential to the curve, as if its wheels never evenbriefly followed the curve. 80 is nowhere near fast enough for that. The locomotive appears to have gone straight, dead arrow straight, right off of the track. It didnt appear to barrel roll. A few cars tried to follow it, but at some point the rest of the cars seem to follow the curve.

The physics before me do not make sense without some kind of external actor or equipment malfunction causing bizarre attitude prior to or upon the train entering that curve.

With talgo cars having come to rest on both sides of the curve, and some randomly arranged on the track, what i expect is that, as you say, the locomotive went off the track tangentially and probably at first the first few cars went with it. But the pictures show there was no talgo car attached to the locomotive or near it so I assume that coupler gave way fairly early on. The train, with its brakes full on, was decelerating much faster than the lead locomotive. The back of the train (still on the track) pushed into the (derailed) front of the train and it essentially hit itself which is what caused the cars to jacknife and even deflect onto the inner side of the curve..

 

[cirdan]

Assuming overspeed is confirmed to be the primary catalyst I suppose the root cause could include...

Loss of situational awareness

Medical complication or impairment

Mechanical failure or sabotage

Structural failure or sabotage

Operational failure or sabotage

Are there any obvious options I'm still missing?

My money is on the loss of situational awareness, possibly due to an unexpected/unwanted distraction and/or the relative newness of the route, in conjunction with an unusually brief segment for rapid deceleration.

Seeing this was an inaugural run it is not entirely impossible that VIps were invited to travel on the locomotive, or invited themselves.

I guess most of us railfans have at some point been allowed to ride with the engineer on a train, but we know how important it is not to distract the engineer and we wouldn't initiate casual conversation of do anything that might cause distraction.

VIps on the other hand, used to being the center of attention all the time. You know, Driving a train? That looks easy. Let me try.

 

[cirdan]

WSDOT #1402 was wrecked this morning when it derailed while hauling Amtrak Cascades #501 on an inaugural run on the new Cascades route. Sadly, 9 passengers were killed and 77 passengers and car motorists sustained injuries. It seems like it's irreparable, but at least the design of it saved the engineer's life, thanks to Siemens!

My thoughts and prayers go to those affected by the accident, as well as the friends and families of those that were killed.

Where are you hearing 9 were killed. Initial reports said 6 but thats been downgraded to 3.

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I asked the same thing in a comment on a Facebook post. "How'd it go from 3 deaths, to 6, to 9, and now back to 3?"

It's quite usual actually after major disasters, that the death count recedes somewhat as the dust settles.

All sorts of glitches can happen leading to double counting, Also people missing can quickly be assumed dead if say their belongings are retrieved from a badly damaged part oif the train but their body's aren't. Rescue teams then assume the worst. Sometimes people will walk away from a scene and make their own way home and only contact the authorities later. Sometimes people may use different variants of their name, or their name can get mis-spelled or mis-communicated leading to the impression that they are two separate individuals.

Lots of things like this can and do happen.

 

[XHRTSP]

I was considering trying to take this train to be part of the inaugural run. My last flight on the 17th (IST-SNN-ATL) was delayed multiple times, and had I stayed on time I most likely would have gotten stuck in the Atlanta fiasco anyway. This is definitely a black eye for the Cascades.

 

[lo2e]

Yes will need one of those multiple axel low boys. Highway overpass clearances a definite problem. Anyone remember the height of a SC-44 then add the low boy height.

I know absolutely nil about the process of cleaning up an accident like this - would it be at all possible to put the loco on its side on a low boy in order to make sure it clears underpasses?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Yes will need one of those multiple axel low boys. Highway overpass clearances a definite problem. Anyone remember the height of a SC-44 then add the low boy height.

I know absolutely nil about the process of cleaning up an accident like this - would it be at all possible to put the loco on its side on a low boy in order to make sure it clears underpasses?

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen engines on their sides on trucks after they were involved in derailments.

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[John Bobinyec]

I think they'd load the engine upright on a lowboy, without its trucks, which are detachable.

jb

 

[jis]

Latest (12/20 morning) from NTSB says that no brake application was initiated at the approach to the curve. The first brake application happened automatically. So everyone is pretty puzzled about why.

 

[frequentflyer]

Latest (12/20 morning) from NTSB says that no brake application was initiated at the approach to the curve. The first brake application happened automatically. So everyone is pretty puzzled about why.

Looking more and more like situational awareness. "Where am I?"

 

[jis]

Amtrak CEO Anderson's Presser in Tacoma on 12/19 regarding the Cascades derailment:

http://www.king5.com/video/news/local/amtrak-ceo-speaks-in-tacoma/281-2842786

How Amtrak is handling the customer side of this incident is a class act compared to what was done after the 188 event under the previous leadership. Perhaps we have the much maligned airline culture to thank for this?

Anderson also emphasized the issue of "safety culture", again perhaps something from the airline culture showing through? He was not shy about mentioning that his transportation experince is from the airline industry and he is new to railroads.

 

[A Voice]

Latest (12/20 morning) from NTSB says that no brake application was initiated at the approach to the curve. The first brake application happened automatically. So everyone is pretty puzzled about why.

Looking more and more like situational awareness. "Where am I?"

Possibly, but with a lack of situational awareness you would tend to expect a last second (much too late) emergency brake application when you finally become aware you're heading into that curve. This truly is rather puzzling.

It will be interesting to hear what the engineer has to say. I can think of one or two possibilities of what might have happened in that cab (not the first time, sadly), but just wild speculation at this point.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

The fact that no brakes were applied puzzles me, because the engineer yelled emergency emergency we are on the ground but it sounded as if he put the train into emergency and was declaring he had braked and then the train derailed, but I could (and probably am) be wrong.

 

[George K]

The fact that no brakes were applied puzzles me, because the engineer yelled emergency emergency we are on the ground

I believe that was the conductor whose voice you heard.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

I would think it's the engineer as he says we are on the ground and then says we are on the highway, not sure where the conductor was in the train could have been on the cars that were on the highway, but I'm guessing it was the engineer.

Also, whoever it was, thought they were at milepost 20-21, but the detector that they went over maybe 10 seconds before the derailment, said milepost 26.4, maybe they really didn't know where they were.

Last thing before the derailment was Amtrak 501 entering centrailia north, but without any pause, says emergency emergency

*edit, they guy who said emergency emergency later said "I'll check with my conductor" which I'd think would indicate he was the engineer. Or there were two conductors, which is always a possibility.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I would think it's the engineer as he says we are on the ground and then says we are on the highway, not sure where the conductor was in the train could have been on the cars that were on the highway, but I'm guessing it was the engineer.

Also, whoever it was, thought they were at milepost 20-21, but the detector that they went over maybe 10 seconds before the derailment, said milepost 26.4, maybe they really didn't know where they were.

Last thing before the derailment was Amtrak 501 entering centrailia north, but without any pause, says emergency emergency

*edit, they guy who said emergency emergency later said "I'll check with my conductor" which I'd think would indicate he was the engineer. Or there were two conductors, which is always a possibility.

There was a conductor trainee in the cab learning the route. That may have been who called it in. The engineer was pretty badly hurt (head injuries) so s/he may not have been able to call it in.

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[jis]

Remember there was a Conductor in the cab on a qualifying run. So there were two people in the cab, the Engineer and the Conductor on a qualifying run. The Conductor on duty on the train was of course in the body of the train, not in the engine.

 

[George K]

Remember there was a Conductor in the cab on a qualifying run. So there were two people in the cab, the Engineer and the Conductor on a qualifying run. The Conductor on duty on the train was of course in the body of the train, not in the engine.

Ah - that makes sense.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

In the recording, The original caller to the dispatcher clealry says "this is the conductor" - which would be THE conductor.

Calling "emergency" three times over the radio is common railroad practice in order to clear the radio of other communications to allow the dispatcher to communicate with the train in an emergency situation. It has nothing to do with the trains emergency brakes being applied.

 

[TrackWalker]

I was considering trying to take this train to be part of the inaugural run. My last flight on the 17th (IST-SNN-ATL) was delayed multiple times, and had I stayed on time I most likely would have gotten stuck in the Atlanta fiasco anyway. This is definitely a black eye for the Cascades.

By an odd coincidence I read last night on the Smithsonian website about those who "just missed" being on the Titanic.

" 'JUST MISSED IT’ CLUB FORMED WITH 6,904 MEMBERS"

"By the time Ohio’s Lima Daily News weighed in, on April 26, the club seems to have grown considerably. “Up to the present time the count shows that just 118,337 people escaped death because they missed the Titanic or changed their minds a moment before sailing time,” the newspaper observed."

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Latest (12/20 morning) from NTSB says that no brake application was initiated at the approach to the curve. The first brake application happened automatically. So everyone is pretty puzzled about why.

Looking more and more like situational awareness. "Where am I?"

Situational awareness when it comes to trains means, to me, missing where you are located by a distance, which can happen, and results in things like 188 where the air is dumped too late for avoiding a derailment.

This seems to me to be something else. The air was dumped automatically, as designed by Westinghouse over 100 years ago, when the attitude of the derailing train caused one of the brake lines to disconnect, engaging a fast dump protocol. That means nobody applied the brakes.

To me this means that either the engineer was non compis mentis, or the controls werent responding. Even if he had his head turned in conversation with the conductor trainee his peripheral vision should have picked up the turn at some point and he should have slammed the ebrake button. Even Sanchez at Chatsworth, who was texting, applied the brake uselessly at the last second.

I dont knoe how the voice recorder, if there is one, works, but one would at least expect an expletive.

 

[Adrouault]

I was considering trying to take this train to be part of the inaugural run. My last flight on the 17th (IST-SNN-ATL) was delayed multiple times, and had I stayed on time I most likely would have gotten stuck in the Atlanta fiasco anyway. This is definitely a black eye for the Cascades.

IST-SNN-ATL?

What airline flies that?

 

[jis]

Latest (12/20 morning) from NTSB says that no brake application was initiated at the approach to the curve. The first brake application happened automatically. So everyone is pretty puzzled about why.

Looking more and more like situational awareness. "Where am I?"

Situational awareness when it comes to trains means, to me, missing where you are located by a distance, which can happen, and results in things like 188 where the air is dumped too late for avoiding a derailment.

This seems to me to be something else. The air was dumped automatically, as designed by Westinghouse over 100 years ago, when the attitude of the derailing train caused one of the brake lines to disconnect, engaging a fast dump protocol. That means nobody applied the brakes.

To me this means that either the engineer was non compis mentis, or the controls werent responding. Even if he had his head turned in conversation with the conductor trainee his peripheral vision should have picked up the turn at some point and he should have slammed the ebrake button. Even Sanchez at Chatsworth, who was texting, applied the brake uselessly at the last second.

I dont knoe how the voice recorder, if there is one, works, but one would at least expect an expletive.

The lack of brake application indeed is a huge mystery. The event recorder actually records control inputs, so it is lack of control input that is the mystery. There is a chance it could be a failure of the control system. We'll just have to wait until NTSB completes its analysis.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Latest (12/20 morning) from NTSB says that no brake application was initiated at the approach to the curve. The first brake application happened automatically. So everyone is pretty puzzled about why.

Looking more and more like situational awareness. "Where am I?"

Situational awareness when it comes to trains means, to me, missing where you are located by a distance, which can happen, and results in things like 188 where the air is dumped too late for avoiding a derailment.

This seems to me to be something else. The air was dumped automatically, as designed by Westinghouse over 100 years ago, when the attitude of the derailing train caused one of the brake lines to disconnect, engaging a fast dump protocol. That means nobody applied the brakes.

To me this means that either the engineer was non compis mentis, or the controls werent responding. Even if he had his head turned in conversation with the conductor trainee his peripheral vision should have picked up the turn at some point and he should have slammed the ebrake button. Even Sanchez at Chatsworth, who was texting, applied the brake uselessly at the last second.

I dont knoe how the voice recorder, if there is one, works, but one would at least expect an expletive.

The lack of brake application indeed is a huge mystery. The event recorder actually records control inputs, so it is lack of control input that is the mystery. There is a chance it could be a failure of the control system. We'll just have to wait until NTSB completes its analysis.

I don't think it could be a failure of the control system. If the engineer was aware of where s/he was, and s/he tried to apply the brakes and they failed, then s/he would have known that. At that point s/he would have put the brake into emergency using the normal brake control handle. Failing that, there should have been another emergency brake valve in the cab. If that failed, s/he could have radioed the conductor to put the train into emergency from back in the train. Since the train would have needed to slow down well before the curve, an engineer who was aware of where the train was, and who was not disabled in some way, should have been able to have the brakes applied before they got to the curve.

jb

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

I would think it's the engineer as he says we are on the ground and then says we are on the highway, not sure where the conductor was in the train could have been on the cars that were on the highway, but I'm guessing it was the engineer.

Also, whoever it was, thought they were at milepost 20-21, but the detector that they went over maybe 10 seconds before the derailment, said milepost 26.4, maybe they really didn't know where they were.

Last thing before the derailment was Amtrak 501 entering centrailia north, but without any pause, says emergency emergency

*edit, they guy who said emergency emergency later said "I'll check with my conductor" which I'd think would indicate he was the engineer. Or there were two conductors, which is always a possibility.

There was a conductor trainee in the cab learning the route. That may have been who called it in. The engineer was pretty badly hurt (head injuries) so s/he may not have been able to call it in.

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Okay makes sense.
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