Edmonton <> Calgary......A Future Corridor?

[NS VIA Fan]

Here are some documents to help. I'll try to keep these in chronologic order.......

Interesting! Thanks for posting. (I knew you'd chime in on this one! )

 

[Willbridge]

It was interesting. Suddenly with no planning CP South Edmonton was an important station. The AM northbound train, now transformed into a Railiner instead of being a Dayliner, connected in Calgary from Train 1. The PM southbound connected in Calgary to Train 2. (VIA had gone to the old Dominion schedule of four nights instead of the three night Canadian schedule.) VIA's local staff at CN Tower Station tried selling travel to and from the west via Prince George but that didn't work very well. At some point they put on a chartered bus to Calgary for westbound and from Calgary for eastbound. Of course that offered miserable hours at Edmonton, especially if the eastbound was late.

VIA put RDC-1's and 2's on to provide more seats and began to run a 2-car train, but it still was sold out at times. As many of the new customers were long-haul passengers they demanded food service. And when they arrived, where was their checked baggage? It was going to be about 5 km away when it arrived at the CN Tower Station. At this point we were being told that VIA was negotiating with CP to cross the High Level Bridge and use the existing junction to run Calgary trains into the CN Tower Station.

 

[jiml]

VIA put RDC-1's and 2's on to provide more seats and began to run a 2-car train, but it still was sold out at times. As many of the new customers were long-haul passengers they demanded food service.

Before the demise, didn't VIA introduce a mid-point food stop to meet this need, or did that date from the CP era?

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Before the demise, didn't VIA introduce a mid-point food stop to meet this need, or did that date from the CP era?

Note in the VIA 1980 Timetable posted at the top there were Vending Machines available in the Red Deer Station.

 

[Willbridge]

Before the demise, didn't VIA introduce a mid-point food stop to meet this need, or did that date from the CP era?

Yes, the vending machines in Red Deer were CP's contribution that carried on. There also was a bakery in South Edmonton across 103 Street that had some terrific products including sausage rolls. Full service restaurants were nearby on both ends of the line. That bakery was near my office so I found reason to be at or within sight of the station at train times, experiencing flashbacks to a konditorei in Berlin.

When VIA finally started the "use it or lose it" service upgrade they had a snack bar in an RDC-1, which was great but cut into the desperately needed seating.

Continuing the saga, besides the snack bar they provided a Yellow Cab van between South Edmonton and CN Tower Stations. They had given up on getting the CP to let them into downtown.

The excursion fares boosted ridership on both trains but the One-Day Return fare that the ad mentions could not be used on Sundays.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

View attachment 21324

Looks like a CP Air ad cut off on the right of the VIA ad above. Did CP Rail do much advertising for the 'Dayliner' prior to VIA?

 

[jiml]

There also was a bakery in South Edmonton across 103 Street that had some terrific products including sausage rolls.

One of the staple treats of my childhood and found nearly everywhere, including the chain bakeshops that seemed to be on most corners back then. Now to get a proper one you have to go to a British specialty shop and pay a much higher price, but I still buy them when I can.

 

[Willbridge]

One of the staple treats of my childhood and found nearly everywhere, including the chain bakeshops that seemed to be on most corners back then. Now to get a proper one you have to go to a British specialty shop and pay a much higher price, but I still buy them when I can.

South Edmonton was also the German neighborhood. A colleague who spoke German and I used to go to lunch a couple of blocks from the CP station, so we could listen to the German farmers talking shop. I think those customers liked savory pastries.

We bent over in laughter when SCTV did a parody of Chinatown with John Candy as the hard-boiled detective. It was titled Polynesiatown and in the closing scene (I won't spoil the hilarious ending) a CP Diesel engine and the South Edmonton Station are in the background.

 

[Willbridge]

Looks like a CP Air ad cut off on the right of the VIA ad above. Did CP Rail do much advertising for the 'Dayliner' prior to VIA?

Not while I was following it (from roughly late 1971). That fits with them dropping the three Lethbridge routes in July 17th, 1971. I know that the agents at South Edmonton complained when T-2000 Alberta bought some small classified ads in the Edmonton Journal under "Transportation" with their phone number. They started to get calls and it disturbed the peace. That was before the ridership boom in 1981.

 

[jiml]

There is apparently renewed interest in this route:

https://www.prairielink.ca/

 

[Willbridge]

There is apparently renewed interest in this route:

https://www.prairielink.ca/

Thanx! In 1985 when almost all of the infrastructure was in place we (T2000) supported an evolutionary approach but now that so much is gone they might as well start over.

It's been interesting to me to see how many hits there have been on my YouTube video of the broken promises in the West. The sound is too low, so turn the volume up.

 

[jiml]

This seems to be an undertaking by two reputable companies - no SNC Lavalin "sweetheart" deals. It may actually get built and if it were running tomorrow it wouldn't be soon enough for locals. Apparently the connecting highway has gotten horrendous (even with Covid-reduced traffic levels), especially when approaching either endpoint. There isn't sufficient diversion infrastructure for accident or weather problems and people just wind up stuck on the highway.

I am hoping to be in the area in September and have to drive the entire length at least twice and daily in the Calgary area, so should get some perspective.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

I suppose the chances of Saskatoon to Regina service are substantially less (much smaller population; they can accurately be described as small cities, unlike Calgary and Edmonton which are pretty good sized by my standards). That's a shame since the only time I've ever been to Regina (grade 8 field trip long ago) we took the railliner. Unfortunately I don't remember all that much about the trip except how few members of the legislature were actually in their seats.

 

[Willbridge]

This seems to be an undertaking by two reputable companies - no SNC Lavalin "sweetheart" deals. It may actually get built and if it were running tomorrow it wouldn't be soon enough for locals. Apparently the connecting highway has gotten horrendous (even with Covid-reduced traffic levels), especially when approaching either endpoint. There isn't sufficient diversion infrastructure for accident or weather problems and people just wind up stuck on the highway.

I am hoping to be in the area in September and have to drive the entire length at least twice and daily in the Calgary area, so should get some perspective.

I haven't been on that highway since 1997 but from looking at the development along it in Google maps I would guess that it has far more local traffic on it than it was meant to handle (like I-25 through Colorado Springs).

 

[jiml]

I suppose the chances of Saskatoon to Regina service are substantially less (much smaller population; they can accurately be described as small cities, unlike Calgary and Edmonton which are pretty good sized by my standards).

Yes, and that's an unfortunate fact. It's another natural corridor and there isn't even a straight-line major highway connecting the two. Then again, if Edmonton wasn't the capital of the province we might not even be having the Alberta discussion, since it isn't that large either.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Yes, and that's an unfortunate fact. It's another natural corridor and there isn't even a straight-line major highway connecting the two. Then again, if Edmonton wasn't the capital of the province we might not even be having the Alberta discussion, since it isn't that large either.

Hwy 11 is about as straight as it's going to get, and I think it's 'twinned' the whole way now as the Canadians would say. Still a dangerous drive in the winter.

 

[jiml]

A similar rail route in other parts of the country would be deemed essential.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

A similar rail route in other parts of the country would be deemed essential.

Whether we're talking about Calgary & Edmonton or Saskatoon & Regina, both pairs are by far the biggest things in their respective provinces as well as more than half of each province's population if you take the metro area figures. In other words, substantially bigger than they were when they had regular passenger rail service, whether you figure in absolute terms or relative.

 

[Willbridge]

Whether we're talking about Calgary & Edmonton or Saskatoon & Regina, both pairs are by far the biggest things in their respective provinces as well as more than half of each province's population if you take the metro area figures. In other words, substantially bigger than they were when they had regular passenger rail service, whether you figure in absolute terms or relative.

Here are some promotional items from the last year of the Railiner Regina<>Prince Albert service. In the subsequent 1981 Pepin cutbacks Regina<>Saskatoon was included in a daylight coach train from Winnipeg. That duplicated the Canadian Winnipeg<>Regina. When the Panorama was introduced it traveled Winnipeg<>Saskatoon on the CN main line.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

I sometimes wonder in folks in eastern Canada have any clearer notion of where things in western Canada are than Americans do, i.e. not much.

 

[jiml]

I sometimes wonder in folks in eastern Canada have any clearer notion of where things in western Canada are than Americans do, i.e. not much.

While that may apply in some areas such as politics, history is history and if one is a student of railway history you look at the whole country. From that perspective western Canada is far more interesting. I also have a significant number of friends and family members in Alberta and BC.

If you change the word "folks" to "decision-makers" then I'm with you.

 

[Bob Dylan]

While that may apply in some areas such as politics, history is history and if one is a student of railway history you look at the whole country. From that perspective western Canada is far more interesting. I also have a significant number of friends and family members in Alberta and BC.

If you change the word "folks" to "decision-makers" then I'm with you.

Good post, but sadly this isn't generally true in the US anymore due to lack of interest by most sheeple in these subjects, and the fact that they are no longer being mandated in Public Education, ( which is being forced by Politicians to only Teach PC and Big Lie "approved" information)and the instant gratification obtained from being " entertained" by Screens.

 

[Willbridge]

Having grown up with a fair amount of interest in western Canada and having worked in Alberta I've concluded that the knowledge and understanding is organized on a grid. jiml has east-west friends in the West, people in the West follow news from Ottawa, etc. At the same time we find BC-flagged sailboats in the San Diego harbor, petroleum engineers traveling between Calgary and Denver, etc. Back when newspapers had bigger budgets the Oregonian had a correspondent in Victoria. In my college the Poli Sci students made an annual field trip to watch the uproar in the BC legislature.

Bob Dylan has a good point about education. When I was in 6th grade in Portland we studied Canada and Latin America. We watched two CPR films - one with the Princess Patricia on the Inside Passage and the other showing the all-new Canadian traveling from Montreal to Vancouver. When my son was in 6th grade in Denver they only studied Latin America and the kids got the impression that everyone there spoke Spanish.

 

[west point]

I sometimes wonder in folks in eastern Canada have any clearer notion of where things in western Canada are than Americans do, i.e. not much.

The revelations about native children's "schools" is an example. The RRs' use in this has not yet become common knowledge.

 

[Seaboard92]

That is something we often forget actually about the midwest it isn't just a east west thing like a large portion of our population looks at it. It is a north south thing as well. Part of this east-west mindset comes from the era of the railroad construction and manifest destiny which was pushing as far west as you could possibly go. And every railroad wanted to have a line to the Pacific when you think of how many railroads had Pacific in their names.

The USA had quite a few north south lines back in the 1950s that made a lot of sense.

~Twin Star Rocket (St. Paul, MN-Houston, TX) hitting Des Moines, Kansas City, Topeka, El Reno, and Ft. Worth. This is a route I could see being important today as it was back then. And almost all of it is still in service however I would probably opt to run it via Oklahoma City. This was a Rock Island train and operated on one railroad for the entire length.

~Texas Zephyr (Denver, CO-Dallas, TX) hitting Colorado Springs, Amarillo, Wichita Falls. A Burlington train that ran on two of Burlington's wholly owned subsidiaries.

~Zephyr Rocket (St. Paul, MN-St. Louis, MO) a short distance night train operated via Cedar Rapids and Quincy on the Burlington and Rock Island.

~Texas Chief (Chicago-Galveston) via the Santa Fe routing via Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Dallas, and Houston.

~Southern Belle (Kansas City, MO-New Orleans, LA) via the Kansas City Southern routing hitting Shreveport on the way.

~Kansas City-Florida Special (Kansas City, MO-Jacksonville, FL) via the Frisco and the Southern Railway via Birmingham, Atlanta, and Macon. This is one everyone seams to forget even existed.

Canada doesn't have a lot of north south lines but that is partially just due to the population density basically north of the CN Mainline out west there really isn't a large population. I can't even think of any large population centers above it except for Prince Albert.

However you have had cross border traffic from western Canada. You've had both the Northern Pacific, and Great Northern operating some version of a Twin Cities to Winnipeg service. The Canadian Pacific and Soo Line fielded the Mountaineer or the Soo Dominion depending on which season between Chicago-Regina-Calgary-Vancouver. However the CP/SOO train really is not a north south train.

Now that does lead you to some interesting things one could do.

In theory you could run a Calgary-Denver train via Great Falls, Billings, Casper, and Cheyenne. That actually would be an interesting service because both Calgary and Denver are very similar culturally. It isn't unheard of as the Burlington had a service from Billings to Denver up into the 60s as well as the Great Northern having a train down from Shelby to Billings. It would definitely be a train with a higher subsidy than the other routes but that doesn't make it any less worthwhile. Amtrak is a public service and it needs to be seen as such. You invest in it for the public good. The same thing can be said for VIA Rail however Parliament has lost sight of that especially out west.

Western Canada in reality Midwestern Canada (Calgary-Thunder Bay) actually had some really interesting rail services back in 1952. You had service on both CN and CP between all of the major cities like Winnipeg-Saskatoon-Edmonton on CP, or CN Winnipeg-Calgary. Couple that with all of the branch lines that created little rural hubs between rural population centers you had a fascinating network. It is a real shame most of that has crumbled away.

Honestly I've wondered why we don't reroute the Canadian onto the more northernly CN route from Edmonton to Winnipeg that has significantly less freight traffic. The route may be a bit longer and not be the historical passenger route but it would be faster without the freight interference and it isn't too far away from Saskatoon. Of course the other viable route at that point becomes the CP between Edmonton and Winnipeg as well. Even less freight traffic and it still hits Saskatoon.

Honestly it still makes a lot of sense to run something between Calgary and Edmonton you are talking about two decent sized cities in a climate where the roads are treacherous at least half the year. A Piedmont style regional service would do really well in that corridor in my opinion. Red Dear would be very much similar to Greensboro on the Piedmont as well.