Emp Serv to GCT, LSL NYP Suspended, Other NYP Changes 2018

[neroden]

I can add something else I was told at the ESPA meeting: the "issue with the Park Avenue Tunnel" is fairly minor, though I'm sure it's causing planning headaches. The outside two tracks have no way to evacuate at the sides (this is historical: it was a two track tunnel with two very tight one-track tunnels added on either sides). Due to Amtrak's historical choice of locomotives which can't evacuate at the front or back, this means they have to borrow a Metro-North locomotive to run on the outer tracks, or run on the inner pair of tracks only.

 

[railiner]

I can add something else I was told at the ESPA meeting: the "issue with the Park Avenue Tunnel" is fairly minor, though I'm sure it's causing planning headaches. The outside two tracks have no way to evacuate at the sides (this is historical: it was a two track tunnel with two very tight one-track tunnels added on either sides). Due to Amtrak's historical choice of locomotives which can't evacuate at the front or back, this means they have to borrow a Metro-North locomotive to run on the outer tracks, or run on the inner pair of tracks only.

That's interesting...I never knew about that restriction...thanks for the info.

 

[PVD]

The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.

 

[railiner]

The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.

Yeah...I just took a look at photo's of the MN loco's, and see those hatches where the Amtrak units have their number's....another new bit of info for me....thanks!

 

[cpotisch]

The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.

I've been confused about the whole FL-9 thing. So the thinking is that they would have a cab car or FL-9 mounted in front of the P32, with the engineer controlling the train from there? That way they could escape in an emergency, since the Amtrak P32s don't have an escape hatch? But the cab cars don't have escape hatches in the nose either, so why are those necessary? Sorry if I'm way off here.

 

[keelhauled]

It might depend on what they do with the train at Grand Central. If they turn it on the loop track they probably don't need the cab cars. Engineer leaves through the FL9 and passengers through last coach. If they run push-pull then they need a cab car on one end with a vestibule--even if there were Metroliners to spare, most if not all have had the doors welded closed.

I don't think anyone has seen either MARC can cars or the FL9s move towards Albany so it is probably up in the air still.

 

[cpotisch]

It might depend on what they do with the train at Grand Central. If they turn it on the loop track they probably don't need the cab cars. Engineer leaves through the FL9 and passengers through last coach. If they run push-pull then they need a cab car on one end with a vestibule--even if there were Metroliners to spare, most if not all have had the doors welded closed.

I don't think anyone has seen either MARC can cars or the FL9s move towards Albany so it is probably up in the air still.

But most Empire Corridor Amfleets aren't equipped for push-pull operation, right? Didn't they have to add some 'wires and hoses' to the Keystone Amfleets to run push-pull?

 

[PVD]

AM 1 including the split club/cafe/lounge are push pull compatible (per OTOL roster). The FL-9 would serve as the operating position as it is escape compatible, I am pretty sure the MARC cars have a door.

 

[keelhauled]

But most Empire Corridor Amfleets aren't equipped for push-pull operation, right?

Right. None are so far as I know. I was just speaking in terms of an internal shuffle of Amtrak equipment.

 

[west point]

Thought it was understood that as the AM-1s went through level 2 overhaul one item would be to install wiring for push pull operation ?t

 

[Thirdrail7]

I don't think anyone has seen either MARC can cars or the FL9s move towards Albany so it is probably up in the air still.

Yes...no one has seen them. Wait:



All AM-1s are push pull compatible. AM-2s, on the other hand are not. That is why I mentioned they may need the AM-1 set from 153 and 152 for this project..

 

[west point]

Have observed some AM-2s with push pull capability and others not.

 

[cpotisch]

Why are they going to MARC for cab cars when Metro North has plenty and they are literally in the same station?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[jis]

Why are they going to MARC for cab cars when Metro North has plenty and they are literally in the same station?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

Because Metro North does not have any spares and MARC does.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[railiner]

The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.

I've been confused about the whole FL-9 thing. So the thinking is that they would have a cab car or FL-9 mounted in front of the P32, with the engineer controlling the train from there? That way they could escape in an emergency, since the Amtrak P32s don't have an escape hatch? But the cab cars don't have escape hatches in the nose either, so why are those necessary? Sorry if I'm way off here.

The FL-9's do have a nose door....

https://www.google.com/search?q=metro+north+fl9&sa=X&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS739US739&biw=1920&bih=900&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=SHmUaOKGxOj7fM%253A%252CODgwIlVr3QKBcM%252C_&usg=__LPmrp6FHj_Bot_9323ysPGEO-mE%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj8stbtrvXZAhWknuAKHfz6AvkQ9QEIKzAB#imgrc=qW20u1f6ePEz3M:

 

[cpotisch]

The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.

I've been confused about the whole FL-9 thing. So the thinking is that they would have a cab car or FL-9 mounted in front of the P32, with the engineer controlling the train from there? That way they could escape in an emergency, since the Amtrak P32s don't have an escape hatch? But the cab cars don't have escape hatches in the nose either, so why are those necessary? Sorry if I'm way off here.

The FL-9's do have a nose door....
https://www.google.com/search?q=metro+north+fl9&sa=X&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS739US739&biw=1920&bih=900&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=SHmUaOKGxOj7fM%253A%252CODgwIlVr3QKBcM%252C_&usg=__LPmrp6FHj_Bot_9323ysPGEO-mE%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj8stbtrvXZAhWknuAKHfz6AvkQ9QEIKzAB#imgrc=qW20u1f6ePEz3M:

I was asking if the MARC cab cars have nose doors, not the FL-9s.

 

[Ryan]

You’re wrong about that as well. Have you ever actually seen one?

 

[PVD]

Thank you, I was thinking about posting a picture, but you saved me from remembering proper form for attribution. I have seen a picture of them (yours I believe) on Wikipedia and it is pretty clear. No need now.....going back to my Sunday Times....

 

[Ryan]

It is easier when they are yours.

 

[Northeastern292]

Would their deal with NYS allow their use (the P32) for that type of service? Not sure if they have enough of them any way.

First, Metro-North is running at max capacity. I don't think they can spare a P32 for what Amtrak is looking for. Second, the phasing of the HEP between the two batches of P32's are different. Might be 480v, but it's there. Personally, I'd like to see the MNRR fleet made universal, but MNRR likes not being the standard.

As for someone asking about capacity, GCT is a TOTALLY different animal during the Central years than what it is today. For one thing, East Side Access took care of the lower loop and Madison Yard, Grand Central North tore out a few tracks, etc. MNRR has made GCT into a commuter station with pride. When I was born, off-peak service wasn't what it was today, hourly to Poughkeepsie on weekends, no Saturday and Sunday round trip through trains between GCT and Dover Plains (Wassaic), forget that Metro-North is in general running more trains overall. The beast is different, and MNRR is glad they have the station to themselves. On some station pairs, MNRR is running a FIFTEEN MINUTE headway during rush hour. Amtrak trains don't run with Shinkansen precision. That said, MNRR is cutting back a little Harlem Line service for a few months (track and station work in Westchester County), so there might be some wiggle room.

I've argued that everything except for the Lake Shore should be a through train, but we'll be lucky to get what we get. The MTA is trying to run its commuter railroads with an attitude best reserved for rapid transit. Hell, I'd like to see Amtrak operate a few trains out of GCT permanently once Penn Station Access is opened (also contingent on ESA) and some New Haven Line service is moved to Penn, but that's another can o'worms.

TL;DR: Metro-North is protective of its railroad.

 

[PVD]

That comment was a response to the idea of Amtrak running their P32 to Boston, it was not a reference to the MNRR. But I don't see the HEP issue, in a typical US rail scenario, with a single unit providing HEP at 480V 3 phase, phase differences between units would not come into play. As long as the phases are nominally 120 degrees apart, any 3 phase equipt isn't going to care, and neither will the step down transformers for most of the trains power needs. Even duplicate units require syncing/paralleling gear, or you would have an out of phase "problem" which can be catastrophic. P32 run the power through an inverter, and phasing and frequency should be pretty consistent. I thought the 32s used the same GMG195A1 alternator, I could certainly be mistaken.

 

[west point]

The phase problem may be similar to METRA. As we understand the output on Metra trains is reversed to what Amtrak uses. You cannot run 3 phase motors back on items such as HVAC. That may be a reason there is not observed loco interchange METRA - Amtrak. However a special HEP connector that reverses the output could be used but the logistics of insuring that connector never got lost into inventory ?

 

[PVD]

So it would be a connection/hookup problem rather than something weird. Solving the A-B-C phase scenario with a connector adapter would be easy, as you indicated.

 

[cpotisch]

LSL still showing up as CHI-NYP. When is that track work expected to begin?

 

[jld]

I believe thirdrail said shortly after memorial day.