Emp Serv to GCT, LSL NYP Suspended, Other NYP Changes 2018

[cpotisch]

There is so much significant stuff covered in this thread. I feel like it should be pinned.

If everything is pinned, nothing is pinned.

Yes, but I feel like if six things are pinned, six things are pinned. It seems like a pretty reasonable number of pins.

 

[Ryan]

What would pinning solve? It would put it at the top where it already is by virtue of the never ending stream of posts like these.

In other words, “nothing”.

Your skill as a forum administrator is matched only by your skill at railroad operations.

 

[Thirdrail7]

It is pretty frustrating that Amtrak would just change Cardinal pax' e-tickets without including a connecting train. Someone might not notice, and could end up stick in D.C.

Do you know for a fact that existing ticket holders have not been given a connection?

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Didn't someone say that their Cardinal e-ticket now only showed CHI-WAS? That it didn't have a connection listed?

Information has changed. There are now connections to corridor services, with the exception of 51 on Sundays. There doesn't seem to be a connection, probably because 65 is the only train that arrives in time to intercept.

Regionals 152 and 153 will not operate effective 3/24. These are not commission hour trains, they're weekend morning service. I wonder why they're affected and not others; after all NYP work on weekends is consistent across the daytime hours and so is the commuter rail schedule.

They are taking multiple tracks o/o/s over the weekends. Weekends are tough with all of the tracks available since the trains all meet in NYP at the top of the hour. It is not uncommon to have every track in the station full, with others holding out for station space. Add an outage, and you're behind the 8 ball. While that would impact 152 more than 153, there needs to be balance.

 

[Train2104]

They are taking multiple tracks o/o/s over the weekends. Weekends are tough with all of the tracks available since the trains all meet in NYP at the top of the hour. It is not uncommon to have every track in the station full, with others holding out for station space. Add an outage, and you're behind the 8 ball. While that would impact 152 more than 153, there needs to be balance.

I know that. But if it's too tight at the 8am hour, it'll also be too tight at the 3pm hour, etc.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I know that. But if it's too tight at the 8am hour, it'll also be too tight at the 3pm hour, etc.

That's just it. Even with track work, I don't believe it is too tight at 8am. The Rahway Rockets and their associated deadhead movements aren't up and running and neither are the NEC semi-express trains. That's 4 trains that aren't in the picture. Albany and Boston service have outbound departure and Keystone service leaves on the 9am hour. None of them have an inbound presence.

152 arrives with a large number of inbound trains...but not as many outbound trains and now that 147 doesn't arrive from SPG and dwell in the station, that leaves an additional rail.

If anything, 152 is the target and 152 is canceled merely for the balance. I still think it could work though. Perhaps they want to hold on to that set of equipment in case they DO divert the Empire service to GCT.

 

[Anderson]

I've not yet called, but an Arrow query just now shows the WAS to BAL portion of the Cardinal trip replaced with NER #66 arriving BAL at 10:52pm instead of the Cardinal's original 7:16pm. Too late for this old coot, so I'll cancel and fly instead.

Uh, there's MARC service WAS-BAL (quite heavy on weekdays) and if you arrive early you could probably swap onto an earlier Regional if you're not checking bags. Even if you are, under the circumstances you could probably short-check to WAS.

And if you arrive late? According to Amtrak Status Maps Archive Database, from 1/1/17 to 3/10/18, 50's average delay into WAS is 1'11". On a Sunday, that places the arrival AFTER the last scheduled MARC train. Indeed, there are multiple examples of 50 not only missing the last MARC on weekdays, it also misses 66. The next train is 3:15am.

As Blue mentioned, they do appear to have a transfer built to 66. However, this is what caused the connection problems in the past. How long do you hold 66 for connections versus how long do you let the connecting passengers wait for 190?

66 DOES have SUBSTANTIAL recovery time en route but there are numerous track projects planned. Some of the recovery time will be necessary.

If he arrived late and got 66 as a connection then he's covered by the existing ticket; if he's early, presumably he'd just "voucher out" and take MARC (or, gods help him, Greyhound is also in WAS and has several late-night departures). As to holding 66, that's a tricky question (which IMHO should primarily be motivated by how much padding there is south of New Haven versus how much is needed for those projects), but the odds are pretty good that if 50 is that late into WAS, it'll be known a few hours out.

Going with Google, your weekday options Washington-Baltimore are:

2210: AMTK 66

2240: MARC 452

2315: Greyhound

0001: Greyhound

0210: Greyhound

0310: AMTK 190

Amtrak and Greyhound are not materially equal in my mind; the question is really "How much do I prefer getting to Baltimore before 0400?" I can see a value judgment either way on this (especially since it's not like there's a decent all-night diner in that part of DC to kill time at).

 

[greatcats]

Update on altered Cardinal ticketing: Since I found out by non Amtrak means about this train being cut back to Washington, thus altering my Philadelphia to Chicago ticket for May 16, the discussion with the agent a few days ago amounted to being told to call back, as it was not known how this would be handled. Last night I saw that the connecting Corridor train is #111, leaving PHL at 7:01am instead of 8:15 on the Cardinal. I did manage to get a nice agent, Sheila, promptly on the phone just now and my friend and I are now ticketed on #111 in Business Class. While I would hav e preferred the original way, I can live with this. When I first read in these threads about the Empire Service West Side Line being closed, I wondered what this would have to do with the Cardinal. OK, so they are performing more track work in Penn Station, New York, which I am well aware tends to be a zoo. But the westbound 51 departs at 6:45am and the return trip arrives late in the evening, so I am puzzled over why they chose to omit this train and cut it back to DC. Please enlighten me, New York experts.

 

[cpotisch]

Cardinal #51 is shown as back to normal on Nov. 14 on the booking page. #50 is back on Nov. 13. Why does it seem that the Chicago trains are the only ones getting "amputated"? The Cardinal leaves through the same NYP exits as any other train.

 

[PVD]

The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....

 

[cpotisch]

The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....

I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.

Other idea:

Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....

I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.

Other idea:

Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.

I'm guessing #183 and #186 make a few more stops than the Cardinal does, so they would actually slow down the Cardinal.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....

I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.
Other idea:

Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.

I'm guessing #183 and #186 make a few more stops than the Cardinal does, so they would actually slow down the Cardinal.

That is also true, but I doubt that's the main issue. Such a combination would have low OTP eastbound which would not be popular with NEC passengers.

 

[cpotisch]

The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....

I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.
Other idea:

Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.

I'm guessing #183 and #186 make a few more stops than the Cardinal does, so they would actually slow down the Cardinal.

That is also true, but I doubt that's the main issue. Such a combination would have low OTP eastbound which would not be popular with NEC passengers.

Arggghh, good point. I do feel like it's not a huge deal if it takes longer for the Card to get from NYP to WAS, if the alternative is it doesn't go to NYP at all. But the possibility of delays going north/east could definitely screw up any attempt at corridor service.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.
Other idea:

Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.

I'm guessing #183 and #186 make a few more stops than the Cardinal does, so they would actually slow down the Cardinal.

That is also true, but I doubt that's the main issue. Such a combination would have low OTP eastbound which would not be popular with NEC passengers.

Arggghh, good point. I do feel like it's not a huge deal if it takes longer for the Card to get from NYP to WAS, if the alternative is it doesn't go to NYP at all. But the possibility of delays going north/east could definitely screw up any attempt at corridor service.

You aren't looking at the big picture. Everyone is focused on NYP. There are MULTIPLE track projects occurring on the NEC. That is why the Acelas aren't all leaving on the hour and had running time added to them. That is why 110/127 aren't operating and other trains are rescheduled.

51/50 is an oddball train. 51 in particular is a menace on the days it runs on the NEC. It gets in the way since it only runs a few days a week and contrary to popular opinion, slots are indeed tight at 645am, particularly as this train travels towards the WAS.

If anyone recalls (which judging by the posts, you don't) when operation of 51/50 between WAS-NYP resumed in the 2000s, they did indeed combine it with regional service. 51 was combined with 183 on WE-FR and 131 on SU. 50 was supposed to combine with 188 (which is now 186).

It tanked then and it will be an issue now.

Remember, you're attempting to combine a reserved train, long distance train, with a loading plan and baggage service, that tops out at 110mph (remember the viewliners anyone?) with a regional train, that typically has a short but multiple station stops that was scheduled to operate at 125mph. You had a 14-17 car mish-mosh train that got in the way of everything else around it. Not only was it routinely late en route, it dragged down surrounding trains as it lost time.

As for 50, i referenced it before. What happens when (not if, when) 50 is late? What are you combining it with? Are you going to hold 186 for it? You're not liekly to hold a corridor train for multiple hours waiting for a connection. As such, now you have to attempt to combine it with something else and that is not going to work out too well or you'll end up racking up the expenses by running it as an extra.

Even when it managed to be on time, you had this lumbering 14-16 car train, making a lot of stops (like Aberdeen...nothing says Aberdeen more than a 16 car train on a 3 car platform) where the train would not fit or tying up the interlocking surrounding the stations when you spotted it for loading.

It didn't work out and I wouldn't anticipate it working out well these days. That is why they operated it as a separate train.

The problem is there are MULTIPLE issues along the corridor this production season but everyone is focused on NYP and GCT.

 

[west point]

Maybe the early departure of the Cardinal would have interference problems with the work on the east side finishing up for the night ? That is unable to get from SSY to NYP

 

[greatcats]

Third rail- thank you for your information. That is the kind of insight I was seeking.

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[Thirdrail7]

Maybe the early departure of the Cardinal would have interference problems with the work on the east side finishing up for the night ? That is unable to get from SSY to NYP

Not likely. Perhaps you should peruse a NJT schedule and count how many trains are massing around NYP at 645am.

 

[Anderson]

@Thirdrail: For some reason I thought the Viewliners were 125 MPH capable? I recall a lot of discussion to the effect that once the heritage diners and baggage cars were retired, the LD trains should be able to bump up from 110 to 125. But I will admit that I could be in error on this.

 

[JRR]

Why not make the Cardinal just s DC to Chicago train and forget the NYP part?

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[brianpmcdonnell17]

@Thirdrail: For some reason I thought the Viewliners were 125 MPH capable? I recall a lot of discussion to the effect that once the heritage diners and baggage cars were retired, the LD trains should be able to bump up from 110 to 125. But I will admit that I could be in error on this.

They are capable of 125 MPH but need to be certified to operate at these speeds.

 

[jis]

Are you sure that the VL-Is are 125 capable without making a few small changes?

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[cpotisch]

@Thirdrail: For some reason I thought the Viewliners were 125 MPH capable? I recall a lot of discussion to the effect that once the heritage diners and baggage cars were retired, the LD trains should be able to bump up from 110 to 125. But I will admit that I could be in error on this.

@Thirdrail: For some reason I thought the Viewliners were 125 MPH capable? I recall a lot of discussion to the effect that once the heritage diners and baggage cars were retired, the LD trains should be able to bump up from 110 to 125. But I will admit that I could be in error on this.

They are capable of 125 MPH but need to be certified to operate at these speeds.

I'm pretty sure the V-Is are currently only capable of 110 mph, but the plan is to make some minor changes to bump the speed to 125. V-IIs are certified for 125 right out of the box.

 

[PVD]

I sort of remember something from previous discussion that they were designed for, but not certified to....is it maybe wheel profile and slight suspension adjustment? Can't remember specifics....

 

[Thirdrail7]

Without driving this off topic:

Are you sure that the VL-Is are 125 capable without making a few small changes?


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They aren't. PVD is on the right path:

I sort of remember something from previous discussion that they were designed for, but not certified to....is it maybe wheel profile and slight suspension adjustment?

The above and a few minor things would need adjustments. However, don't look for this to occur anytime soon....if at all.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Without driving this off topic:

Are you sure that the VL-Is are 125 capable without making a few small changes?

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They aren't. PVD is on the right path:

I sort of remember something from previous discussion that they were designed for, but not certified to....is it maybe wheel profile and slight suspension adjustment?

The above and a few minor things would need adjustments. However, don't look for this to occur anytime soon....if at all.

Weren't they working on certifying them a few years ago? I found this quote from you in a thread from 2015.

Actually, it is a joint test between NJT and Amtrak to get the ALP-45s and Viewliner 1s ready for 125mph.

Was this project abandoned?