Empire Builder accident (9/25/21)

[crescent-zephyr]

This is what I have been trying to point out, but many who are already invested in a theory have been blissfully ignoring it. So now I await NTSB's reconstruction of what happened, and am refraining from speculating about the sequence of events that left the train in its final configuration..

What were you pointing out? I wasn’t trying to ignore anything but I may have missed something.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yep, they we’re definitely derailed prior to the switch.

Why do you say that? (I’m thinking you may have seen some photos that I haven’t.)

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Why do you say that? (I’m thinking you may have seen some photos that I haven’t.)

Photo was taken down, copyrights. Clearly show the coach on there sides, and the rest of the train just past the track switch. The train stop half before and half after the switch.

 

[NSC1109]

Photo was taken down, copyrights. Clearly show the coach on there sides, and the rest of the train just past the track switch. The train stop half before and half after the switch.

The original photos that came out (or at least the ones that I saw) didn’t clearly show that it was on opposite ends of the switch so a lot of people, professional railroaders on Reddit included, believed it was a picked switch. The last photo shown makes the waters murkier. It still could be a picked switch, it could be a rolled rail (if MOW was working in the area and it hadnt been properly resecured), etc.

Just be thankful the casualty count was as low as it was…derailing at track speed like that had the potential for a lot more damage.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The last photo shown makes the waters murkier. It still could be a picked switch, it could be a rolled rail (if MOW was working in the area and it hadnt been properly resecured), etc.

What was seen in the last photo?

 

[F900ElCapitan]

Why do you say that? (I’m thinking you may have seen some photos that I haven’t.)

Photo was taken down, copyrights. Clearly show the coach on there sides, and the rest of the train just past the track switch. The train stop half before and half after the switch.

Exactly. The rear three cars are on the ground and their sides prior to the switch. There also appears to be a spreading of the rails prior to the switch, but that could be the quality of the photo.

 

[jis]

Photo was taken down, copyrights. Clearly show the coach on there sides, and the rest of the train just past the track switch. The train stop half before and half after the switch.

Yeah. It is the fact that the rear capsized cars were to the east of the switch at CP Buelow East and the rest of the train came to a stop west of the switch is what caught my attention.

That is why it is worth waiting to hear from the NTSB. We do not have all the relevant facts available yet.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

Yeah. It is the fact that the rear capsized cars were to the east of the switch at CP Buelow East and the rest of the train came to a stop west of the switch is what caught my attention.

Same here.

 

[neroden]

This may, or may not, help to explain switches and how they can cause derailments.
http://interfacejournal.com/archives/1190

That's an extremely helpful and detailed catalog of how track, switch, wheel, and wheelset defects can cause derailments.

Of course, as Jis has pointed out, this incident could just as easily be a derailment before the switch, which has its own catalog of possible causes.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

What was seen in the last photo?

I can’t get a clean link. Google images of “Amtrak Derailment Montana” Look for the picture of the guy on top of a flipped Superliner and in the background you can see the rest of the train on the ground flip over and the switch between them.

kiro7.com has a video with the picture in question.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/am...near-town-montana/B5BT6QXXGBBCFC5IGKBMEQBSCE/

 

[jis]

Let's try this as a link:

https://cmg-cmg-tv-10010-prod.cdn.a...4ed4d5feb61d_name_file_960x540_1200_v3_1_.jpg
Just click on the link to see the photo.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

This website has 11 pictures...

@Cal, if you look closely at the one of the Portland section, you can kind of make out a car between the two that are easily seen.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ple-trapped-Amtrak-train-derails-Montana.html

 

[crescent-zephyr]

thanks for the links everyone. I hadn’t seen that photo. It actually supports my theory even more that the train picked the switch and the resulting forces turned over the last cars.

Just my theory of course. Also an earlier article had said the last cars went down an embankment, those photos show that is not the case so those cars just fell on their side. Still terrible but better than an embankment.

Again, very very sad for all involved. Most likely The Portland SCA was in the back of the train and he or she would be most likely moving about the train.

 

[NSC1109]

What was seen in the last photo?

The last few Superliners are resting before the switch. The rest of the train is sitting past the switch. The points are lined for movement to the right track (not sure if it’s considered MT1 or MT2 up there) but the diner appears to be sitting around the left hand track. Now that could very easily just be because of the derailment so I won’t go further than that. But there are a lot of new questions now.

 

[pennyk]

Let's try this as a link:

https://cmg-cmg-tv-10010-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/WxASIFxv3hySHxAdzNCq8mCdV00=/480x270/filters:quality(80)/arc-goldfish-cmg-thumbnails.s3.amazonaws.com/09-26-2021/t_8f059f7cf6a64d3ba20e4ed4d5feb61d_name_file_960x540_1200_v3_1_.jpg
Just click on the link to see the photo.

This website has 11 pictures...

@Cal, if you look closely at the one of the Portland section, you can kind of make out a car between the two that are easily seen.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ple-trapped-Amtrak-train-derails-Montana.html

Thanks for posting links to the photos. As mentioned previously, posting photos directly (that are not your own photos) may violate copyright laws.

 

[jis]

The last few Superliners are resting before the switch. The rest of the train is sitting past the switch. The points are lined for movement to the right track (not sure if it’s considered MT1 or MT2 up there) but the diner appears to be sitting around the left hand track. Now that could very easily just be because of the derailment so I won’t go further than that. But there are a lot of new questions now.

Indeed! A derailed car that hits a facing switch can go whichever way it happens to get grabbed by various rails destroying both tracks in the process. Very hard to reconstruct the events based on a single photo.

 

[Cal]

This website has 11 pictures...

@Cal, if you look closely at the one of the Portland section, you can kind of make out a car between the two that are easily seen.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ple-trapped-Amtrak-train-derails-Montana.html

Still don’t see it.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Still don’t see it.

Use the direct link JIS posted.

Spend a few minutes looking at everything. See the guy on the Superliner side, see the equipment in the background. Look at the space between and see the switch. Half the equipment before, half after the switch. So the derailment occurred before the switch. Forward speed caused the train to stop around the switch. Deceleration from 70 mph takes space.

 

[mvermeulen]

Montana newspapers have articles including some aerial photos. For example, the Billings Gazette - has an article that shows where all the cars ended up - 3 dead in Amtrak Empire Builder derailment on Montana Hi-Line

 

[Cal]

Use the direct link JIS posted.

Spend a few minutes looking at everything. See the guy on the Superliner side, see the equipment in the background. Look at the space between and see the switch. Half the equipment before, half after the switch. So the derailment occurred before the switch. Forward speed caused the train to stop around the switch. Deceleration from 70 mph takes space.

I'm not talking about that, I was talking about how the only Portland cars I see are the SSL, and the two revenue superliners. Wheres the third revenue superliner?


Edit: Oh well this video thumbnail shows three cars, but I still can't see them in the other pictures because of the angle.

 

[87YJ]

Stopping that many tons from 70MPH..... well its a very long ride. If someone here knows the weight of the unit, bet someone here can come close to distance. JMHO

 

[Fenu S]

Here is the most clear photo.

https://www.krtv.com/news/montana-a...rted-in-amtrak-train-derailment-along-hi-linePosted in link form to avoid copyright issues.
(Whoops posted at same time as above poster!)

 

[jebr]

The Star Tribune has some coverage of passengers stranded at St. Paul Union Depot: Amtrak passengers stranded at St. Paul Union Depot following deadly derailment

A couple of notes from the article:

• Trains will not be running west of St. Paul until at least Tuesday.
• It sounds like Amtrak is having staffing issues at Union Depot - despite the website stating that staff is available from 6:45 am - 10:30 pm, passengers at the depot are reporting no Amtrak staff are available to accommodate them.

Stranding passengers is a pretty poor move for Amtrak, both in terms of basic service standards and for public relations. If an airline was doing something similar, it'd be national news. At minimum Amtrak should be providing accommodations and alternate arrangements for those in transit as much as they can do so.

 

[Qapla]

f an airline was doing something similar, it'd be national news. At minimum Amtrak should be providing accommodations and alternate arrangements for those in transit as much as they can do so.

If an airliner had come down in that remote part of Montana, more than likely there would have been far less people to "Accommodate" because the death toll would have more than likely been much greater.

Amtrak cannot invent places to accommodate people in a place that is so sparse that it took one of the firetrucks an hour and a half to get there due to the remoteness of the crash site.

Due to the remote area, the COVID crisis in those states and other factors, it sounds like Amtrak is doing what they can.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Stopping that many tons from 70MPH..... well its a very long ride. If someone here knows the weight of the unit, bet someone here can come close to distance. JMHO

Stopping a train from 70 mph gets a lot quicker when the wheels end up on the ground. Also a lot rougher for all involved.