Empire Builder accident (9/25/21)

[crescent-zephyr]

Look at the space between and see the switch. Half the equipment before, half after the switch. So the derailment occurred before the switch.

The equipment in front of the switch did exactly what you’d expect equipment to do when picking a switch. The equipment afterwards did something very different.

That quick deceleration, along with strange lateral forces could have caused the back cars to turn over before they derailed.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

If an airliner had come down in that remote part of Montana, more than likely there would have been far less people to "Accommodate" because the death toll would have more than likely been much greater.

Amtrak cannot invent places to accommodate people in a place that is so sparse that it took one of the firetrucks an hour and a half to get there due to the remoteness of the crash site.

Due to the remote area, the COVID crisis in those states and other factors, it sounds like Amtrak is doing what they can.

The language you quoted was talking about folks stranded in St. Paul, not on the Hi-line in MT.

 

[jebr]

If an airliner had come down in that remote part of Montana, more than likely there would have been far less people to "Accommodate" because the death toll would have more than likely been much greater.

Amtrak cannot invent places to accommodate people in a place that is so sparse that it took one of the firetrucks an hour and a half to get there due to the remoteness of the crash site.

Due to the remote area, the COVID crisis in those states and other factors, it sounds like Amtrak is doing what they can.

The article refers to people being stranded in St. Paul because there aren't trains that go any further. While some passengers may be unable to be fully accommodated (if someone needs to get to one of the remote stations where there's no other transportation alternatives, the best Amtrak could easily offer is getting them somewhat close) there's no reason Amtrak can't find hotels in St. Paul or the surrounding metropolitan area for what appears to be a few dozen customers at most. Book a few rooms at a few different hotels near the airport if the downtown ones are full/too expensive and provide money for a taxi - there's plenty to do near the airport and a lot of hotel shuttles will go to both the airport and the Mall of America if people want to go to a restaurant or have something to do while they're waiting for the train to go again.

For those who are willing to take a non-train journey, the airlines go to a fair amount of the stops, and Jefferson Lines runs service a bit to the south if someone has family or friends that can pick them up further south. A customer going to Wolf Point may not find Glendive ideal, but it's a lot easier to get a family member to make the hour and a half drive down from there than trying to figure out how to get anywhere remotely close to Wolf Point - particularly if someone also is unable or adverse to flying on the small prop planes that fly into Wolf Point with EAS subsidies.

 

[mvermeulen]

The equipment in front of the switch did exactly what you’d expect equipment to do when picking a switch. The equipment afterwards did something very different.

My last post included a link that has an aerial photograph. It shows:
- Two engines and three cars on the right track ahead of the switch
- One car on the left track ahead of the switch, not connected to the first five
- Three cars just ahead of the switch, with the last on its side
- Three cars behind the switch and on their sides

I'm not sure those ahead of the switch did what was expected either.

 

[Qapla]

I re-read the comments and I see the St Paul area was being mentioned about finding accommodations for people stranded and I agree Amtrak should do what they can - sorry for the confusion.

On the other hand, I was just talking with a friend who lives in St Paul (we were on Zoom) who said that the COBID situation and the violence and social unrest has made the twin cities problematic to find good lodging ... I cannot say first hand - just trust she knows what she is talking about since she lives there.

 

[Bierboy]

Montana newspapers have articles including some aerial photos. For example, the Billings Gazette - has an article that shows where all the cars ended up - 3 dead in Amtrak Empire Builder derailment on Montana Hi-Line

The captions with several of those photos are very inaccurate. Those three cars on their sides have obviously already been removed from the tracks during the cleanup and salvage operation. " ...three battered passenger cars that appeared to have rolled off the tracks..." WRONG.

 

[jebr]

On the other hand, I was just talking with a friend who lives in St Paul (we were on Zoom) who said that the COBID situation and the violence and social unrest has made the twin cities problematic to find good lodging ... I cannot say first hand - just trust she knows what she is talking about since she lives there.

As someone who also lives in St. Paul - there's still plenty of solid lodging options. The social unrest has largely subsided, and while violence has seen an uptick a lot of it is in areas where most tourists wouldn't be anyways. The COVID situation has caused some rooms to be booked up (and some hotels became homeless shelters) but on the whole there's still plenty of quality lodging available in the greater MSP area. Yes, a few of the good options may no longer be good options, and there's always been the low-quality hotels that every major metro area has, but there's still plenty of good options for Amtrak to offer stranded passengers. There's a whole cluster of decent hotels between the airport and the Mall of America along the light rail line that, while a bit more expensive, are generally clean and comfortable and I wouldn't expect safety issues at.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

My last post included a link that has an aerial photograph. It shows:
- Two engines and three cars on the right track ahead of the switch
- One car on the left track ahead of the switch, not connected to the first five
- Three cars just ahead of the switch, with the last on its side
- Three cars behind the switch and on their sides

I'm not sure those ahead of the switch did what was expected either.

I think that aerial photo is after cleanup and re-railing had begun.

 

[Bierboy]

I think that aerial photo is after cleanup and re-railing had begun.

Yes, it's very obvious with the cars laying side-by-side in alignment. As I mentioned above, several of the photo cutlines/captions are very misleading.

 

[Dakota 400]

Lots of interesting discussion about what might have caused this, the forces involved with a train going 79 mph at the time of the accident, and which cars were involved. But, not much discussion about what the passengers in those cars that turned on their side must have experienced.

I have thought about this before this accident. Regardless of whatever car I might be riding when something like this happened, how could I escape with my train car ended up on its side? Being on the upper side of the car would pose different issues than if I was on the bottom side.

What would I do? What should I do? There is no information in the safety pamphlet provided Amtrak passengers about such a situation other than how to remove a safety window in order to escape. That's fine, as long as my train car remain upright. But, if it doesn't......?

 

[MARC Rider]

If an airliner had come down in that remote part of Montana, more than likely there would have been far less people to "Accommodate" because the death toll would have more than likely been much greater.

Amtrak cannot invent places to accommodate people in a place that is so sparse that it took one of the firetrucks an hour and a half to get there due to the remoteness of the crash site.

Due to the remote area, the COVID crisis in those states and other factors, it sounds like Amtrak is doing what they can.

I think the original poster was talking about people being stranded in St. Paul when the next day's train arrived there. Indeed, given that the EB Builder comes into St. Paul around 10 PM, if I were riding that train (not the one that derailed, the one immediately following it) I would hope that I would get accommodation I were expecting to go further west and the train was cancelled while I was riding it. A night in a hotel and an onward plane or bus ticket would be perfectly reasonable.

I will admit that it would be a harder job to accommodate the people on the derailed train, but I would definitely make that an "all hands on deck" exercise, which, for all I know, that's how they're treating it. No worse publicity that having news reports about 140 survivors of a train crash being stranded in the middle of nowhere.

 

[jis]

And the folks traveling by next day’s train are stuck in Shelby and Minot or some such too. What a mess!

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Lots of interesting discussion about what might have caused this, the forces involved with a train going 79 mph at the time of the accident, and which cars were involved. But, not much discussion about what the passengers in those cars that turned on their side must have experienced.

I have thought about this before this accident. Regardless of whatever car I might be riding when something like this happened, how could I escape with my train car ended up on its side? Being on the upper side of the car would pose different issues than if I was on the bottom side.

What would I do? What should I do? There is no information in the safety pamphlet provided Amtrak passengers about such a situation other than how to remove a safety window in order to escape. That's fine, as long as my train car remain upright. But, if it doesn't......?

These are difficult things to think about. On the sunset limited incident, passengers were trapped underwater with no way to escape.

 

[Dakota 400]

These are difficult things to think about. On the sunset limited incident, passengers were trapped underwater with no way to escape.

I remember that. That accident is what has prompted that thought in the back of my mind on every Amtrak that I have taken since then. And, now, even not on that train, once again.

 

[Cal]

https://billingsgazette.com/news/st...cle_1235a76c-0e45-5122-ad08-d7a708e41df9.html
This article has some great photos of the cleanup and how battered up the track got due to the derailment, albeit with incorrect captions.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

https://billingsgazette.com/news/st...cle_1235a76c-0e45-5122-ad08-d7a708e41df9.html
This article has some great photos of the cleanup and how battered up the track got due to the derailment, albeit with incorrect captions.

View attachment 24577

Ok so the track clearly widened, some mentioned that in other photos but was hard to see. Was that from the forces from the train derailing at the switch? Or where the derailment started?

Also... did the Portland cars completely flip over!?

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The three cars at the end of the train got destroyed by the railroad derailment service. All of the windows are smashed out, the roofs are crushed. Look like they roll them out of the way. No respect for the equipment at all. They do this crap to freight train derailment too. No respect for the cargo. Takes just a little effort to avoid damage the cargo/railcars, but no it a speed thing. With the NTSB one thinks that a bypass track getting built. However at least you can tell where the train started to derail. No where close to the switch.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

https://billingsgazette.com/news/st...cle_1235a76c-0e45-5122-ad08-d7a708e41df9.html
This article has some great photos of the cleanup and how battered up the track got due to the derailment, albeit with incorrect captions.

View attachment 24577

This photo is excellent in showing significant track damage prior to the switch. I (as I’m sure many on here have experienced) have been on a train when it went into emergency, it takes quite a while to get it stopped, not as far as a freight, but still significant and much more than from the switch to the engines.

 

[Cal]

Also... did the Portland cars completely flip over!?

Yes.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

As for the passenger who are at station waiting for there train. Amtrak SOP is “No alternative available.” This is a recurring issue that I despise.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

The three cars at the end of the train got destroyed by the railroad derailment service. All of the windows are smashed out, the roofs are crushed. Look like they roll them out of the way. No respect for the equipment at all. They do this crap to freight train derailment too. No respect for the cargo. Takes just a little effort to avoid damage the cargo/railcars, but no it a speed thing. With the NTSB one thinks that a bypass track getting built. However at least you can tell where the train started to derail. No where close to the switch.

To me it appears those cars did derail and fell to their sides during the derailment. The smashed windows and doors are due to emergency services doing their job and rescuing passengers, as a few pictures out there have shown. There is NO way they would have tipped those cars over with people in them, that would be a level of negligence that is beyond comprehension.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

The captions with several of those photos are very inaccurate. Those three cars on their sides have obviously already been removed from the tracks during the cleanup and salvage operation. " ...three battered passenger cars that appeared to have rolled off the tracks..." WRONG.

I don’t see any fact in your statement. Those cars were definitely separated and rolled during the derailment. There are a few photos of emergency personnel working on those cars to rescue passengers. There is no way those cars would have been purposely tipped with people inside.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The Portland sleeper and two coaches did roll on to there side (flipped) during the derailment. Then the Railroad Derailment Service roll them over again to get them away from the tracks. The damage show was not at the same level when the fire department was removing people. The Railroad Derailment Service destroyed those Superliner. The actual derailment damage may or may not been repairable.

 

[Bierboy]

I don’t see any fact in your statement. Those cars were definitely separated and rolled during the derailment. There are a few photos of emergency personnel working on those cars to rescue passengers. There is no way those cars would have been purposely tipped with people inside.

I never said they were tipped with people inside. When they use the word “rolled” that infers more than just tipping onto their sides. Don’t put words in my mouth.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The Portland sleeper and two coaches did roll over during the derailment. Then the Railroad Derailment Service roll them over again to get them away from the tracks. The damage show was not at the same level when the fire department was removing people. The Railroad Derailment Service destroyed those Superliner. The actual derailment damage may or may not been repairable.

Ok that’s what I was wondering if they had completely flipped over.