Empire Builder discussion

[mackinaw chief]

I may be a outlier here but for a consistent Empire builder experience should the Seattle section have a observation lounge car and vis a verse a dining car on the Portland section or simply run 2 separate trains minutes apart so along the way if 1 needs help the other can assist. Before the Spokane split. For continuity of product and no need to have passengers switch trains in middle of night in Spokane thus having the Seattle train make it to connect to the coast starlight. Time spent in Spokane ruins your connection ability. No additional segments off USA Rail pass.

 

[niemi24s]

Carol on the Empire builder in the cafe car is awesome. Amtrak couldn't have a better paitent educator to a relatively new train rider. . . .One whom didn't have his rail legs under him Carol took time to ensure I knew where everything was and to spread my feet to walk or stand in the rolling convenience store. . . Carol is a gem of an asset for Amtrak.

Please take the time to let Amtrak know about this.

Other here will fill you in on how to go about doing it.

 

[Acela150]

As Maglev said, the Builder crew has a particular obsession with closing down the diner 3 hours before arrival so they have time to...um... do whatever it is they do when the diner is closed. Last call for breakfast is when you go through the Cascade Tunnel.

I can tell you first hand what is done in that 3 hour window. The entire diner is stripped of everything. Food, Drinks, Plasticware, etc. It takes about 90 minutes to do all of this. So if the last person who wants breakfast walks in right as the announcement is made for last call That adds on time. So what could be 90 minutes could turn into 2 hours. I'll also add that it's what Amtrak has told the crews to do.

I was not positively impressed by the breakfast situation on the westbound Empire Builder before arrival in Seattle some years ago. It seemed to me that the LSA announced on the train loudspeaker that the dining car was open for breakfast and about 15 minutes later, without any prior warning, announced that the dining car was closed for breakfast.

Please keep in mind that when the diner opens for breakfast on the EB on that last day they open at 5am PT. Which means it's quiet hours and on PA announcements are made unless an emergency occurs. During my days on the EB I would consistently tell pax that no announcements are made about breakfast.

 

[EmpireBuilder28]

Carol on the Empire builder in the cafe car is awesome. Amtrak couldn't have a better paitent educator to a relatively new train rider. Looking at things online does give you a glimpse but that is it a glimpse. When you Boa rd the train it becomes a different world. The first morning after sleeping trying to make head or tails where you are at and getting to breakfast in itself a aerobic exercise. One whom didn't have his rail legs under him Carol took time to ensure I knew where everything was and to spread my feet to walk or stand in the rolling convenience store. Plus I also had backup in a fine couple from Oregon whom assisted me too Henry and his wife Sharon. Carol is a gem of an asset for Amtrak.

Going eastbound from Portland to Chicago, I always had the best coach car attendants in the Portland section. My favorite was a woman named Dolores. I was lucky enough to have her for several eastbound trips. She was so nice and laid back. And I knew when I boarded and saw that she was the attendant that no matter what it was going to be a great trip. And it always was, even with hours long delays. I'm glad you had the equivalent to my Dolores on your trip. As others have stated make sure to contact Amtrak and give positive feedback on Carol. She sounds awesome.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Carol on the Empire builder in the cafe car is awesome. Amtrak couldn't have a better paitent educator to a relatively new train rider. Looking at things online does give you a glimpse but that is it a glimpse. When you Boa rd the train it becomes a different world. The first morning after sleeping trying to make head or tails where you are at and getting to breakfast in itself a aerobic exercise. One whom didn't have his rail legs under him Carol took time to ensure I knew where everything was and to spread my feet to walk or stand in the rolling convenience store. Plus I also had backup in a fine couple from Oregon whom assisted me too Henry and his wife Sharon. Carol is a gem of an asset for Amtrak.

When was this?

 

[Rasputin]

Please keep in mind that when the diner opens for breakfast on the EB on that last day they open at 5am PT. Which means it's quiet hours and on PA announcements are made unless an emergency occurs. During my days on the EB I would consistently tell pax that no announcements are made about breakfast.

We were traveling from Whitefish to Seattle. I do not recall any prior announcement or indication that the dining car would be open for breakfast at 5 a.m. Passengers clearly do not come first on Amtrak.

 

[mackinaw chief]

When was this?

Mothers day out of CHI TO PDX.

 

[zephyr17]

I may be a outlier here but for a consistent Empire builder experience should the Seattle section have a observation lounge car and vis a verse a dining car on the Portland section or simply run 2 separate trains minutes apart so along the way if 1 needs help the other can assist.

There is no way Amtrak will do this, as it would double T&E crew costs, since each separate train would require its own crews. It would also increase the number of locomotives required, with associated fuel and maintenance costs.

When the Diner/Lounges were first introduced, there was some serious discussion about running a Diner/Lounge Portand-Spokane and running the Sightseer to Seattle. That would have provided lounge service to Seattle and diner service to Portland at much lower cost than a separate train. It was one of the few logical uses for those cars, for which Amtrak mutilated perfectly good dining cars to create.

They probably would not even consider running separate sections unless the combined consist exceeded a13 car max. The maximum consist in my recollection was
Seattle section (7/8)
Baggage
Transdorm
Sleeper
Sleeper
Diner
Coach
Coach

Portland section(27/28)
Sightseer
Coach
Coach/Bag
Sleeper
Sleeper

CHI-MSP cutoff (807/808)
Coach

Since they are nowhere close to running that max consist, largely due to ongoing post-COVID equipment and staffing shortages, an entirely separate train is pretty far off. In any case, since Amtrak management is focused almost entirely on cost containment and ignores revenue enhancement, if they ever again reach max consist and still had further demand they would happily accept the increased sales in higher price buckets while avoiding the the direct costs associated with more service to meet that demand. This despite that increased service makes for better utilization and more revenue to cover fixed costs.

 

[mackinaw chief]

Could another su

There is no way Amtrak will do this, as it would double T&E crew costs, since each separate train would require its own crews. It would also increase the number of locomotives required, with associated fuel and maintenance costs.

When the Diner/Lounges were first introduced, there was some serious discussion about running a Diner/Lounge Portand-Spokane and running the Sightseer to Seattle. That would have provided lounge service to Seattle and diner service to Portland at much lower cost than a separate train. It was one of the few logical uses for those cars, for which Amtrak mutilated perfectly good dining cars to create.

They probably would not even consider running separate sections unless the combined consist exceeded a13 car max. The maximum consist in my recollection was
Seattle section (7/8)
Baggage
Transdorm
Sleeper
Sleeper
Diner
Coach
Coach

Portland section(27/28)
Sightseer
Coach
Coach/Bag
Sleeper
Sleeper

CHI-MSP cutoff (807/808)
Coach

Since they are nowhere close to running that max consist, largely due to ongoing post-COVID equipment and staffing shortages, an entirely separate train is pretty far off. In any case, since Amtrak management is focused almost entirely on cost containment and ignores revenue enhancement, if they ever again reach max consist and still had further demand they would happily accept the increased sales in higher price buckets while avoiding the the direct costs associated with more service to meet that demand. This despite that increased service makes for better utilization and more revenue to cover fixed costs.

Could another suggestion be staging 1 dedicated lounge car and dining car in Spokane to be added to the trainset. Hiring 4 part time employees stationed at Spokane to go to Portland and Seattle. I cafe car attendant for Seattle 1 dining car attendant for Portland. Not fair for the cafe car attendant to have to deal with the microwave overload for breakfast let alone demand from sleeping car passengers. Plus be rushed to close down (due to contract lingo) shortly before Portland. Just looking out for the staff and passengers that deserve seamless product that is all.

We were traveling from Whitefish to Seattle. I do not recall any prior announcement or indication that the dining car would be open for breakfast at 5 a.m. Passengers clearly do not come first on Amtrak.

To me the cafe car should be open until at destination. You do your bookwork at end of trip when train leaves for cleaning and restocking for return trip. Inventory should be done by aramark.

 

[zephyr17]

To me the cafe car should be open until at destination. You do your bookwork at end of trip when train leaves for cleaning and restocking for return trip. Inventory should be done by aramark.

Well, we all agree with you, but that only happens on the NEC (and not always there). They've been closing the cafe service at roughly the last stop prior to the terminus on long distance and most non-NEC corridors for pretty much forever.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

To me the cafe car should be open until at destination. You do your bookwork at end of trip when train leaves for cleaning and restocking for return trip. Inventory should be done by aramark.

So, they should work after their shift is over. Nice. The staff is off-duty when the train stops at it's terminus.

 

[zephyr17]

Could another suggestion be staging 1 dedicated lounge car and dining car in Spokane to be added to the trainset.

Well, that is a problem. They are very short on Sightseer Lounges. Even if all non-wrecked SSLs were returned to service they just might have enough to cover all Superliner LD trains. They are also somewhay short on unmutilated Superliner full diners.

I'd much rather see SSLs return to the Eaglet and the Capitol. It also would be nice to have protection SSLs at Chicago and LA if there were any at all left after equipping all trains (and allowing for maintenance rotation of them).

They have a few unassigned mutilated Superliner diner/lounges around, IIRC
Whether they all have been brought back to roadworthy condition after COVID mothballing is another issue. Those have a full Superliner galley and have the capability to provide full dining service.

Staffing could prove an issue. Portland does not have an OBS crew base. 27/28 are crewed out of Chicago OBS base. 7/8 are crewed out of the Seattle OBS base. That is a surmountable problem. Perhaps a Seattle crew working a Cascades, then working east and back on 28/27. The chef/food specialists still present a problem, though.

I do not know what OBS crew arrangements were considered when the Portland diner/lounge proposal was on the table, or if it even got far enough that someone was tasked with working a stafffing proposal out.

In any case, a Portland diner/Lounge would avoid running into very hard limitations on equipment, and provide most of the capability needed (except the SSL's big windows).

 

[Bob Dylan]

So, they should work after their shift is over. Nice. The staff is off-duty when the train stops at it's terminus.

The Unions need to do a better job in negotiating Contracts that Pay OBS and T&E for their. Work Time , not just from Startup to the Terminal Stop.

When Sleeping Car Passengers were allowed to stay on the Train during Early Arrivals into Terminal Stations, the OBS aboard were Paid till the Passengers were off the Train and the Train was ready to go to the Yard.

 

[Ryan]

Inventory should be done by aramark.

That misses the fundamental point of an inventory. What happens when Aramark comes back and says "You only left behind one case of burger patties" when in fact there were 5 left over?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I think a solution for the 'backup' trains from Spokane west is regional trains... But that's another thread.

 

[zephyr17]

I think a solution for the 'backup' trains from Spokane west is regional trains... But that's another thread.

Well, WashDOT is starting to try and get a cross-state servoce going via Stampede Pass, Yakima and Pasco. Perhaps if ODOT chipped in they might do a Pasco-Portland section.

That really isn't a "back up" for LD service though.

 

[zephyr17]

When Sleeping Car Passengers were allowed to stay on the Train during Early Arrivals into Terminal Stations, the OBS aboard were Paid till the Passengers were off the Train and the Train was ready to go to the Yard.

Well, when they did that with the Sunset when the schedule changed to a 5:35 am LA arrival, it didn't really work. Apparently many times the SCAs kicked the sleeper passengers off upon arrival anyway, even though the sleeper pax were supposed to have occupancy until 6:30 am. I don't know whether or not the SCAs claimed the pay anyway.

In any case, Amtrak gave up on that and now booting the sleeper pax upon arrival, like other trains, is official.

It is yet another case of Amtrak not following through.

 

[joelkfla]

Well, when they did that with the Sunset when the schedule changed to a 5:35 am LA arrival, it didn't really work. Apparently many times the SCAs kicked the sleeper passengers off upon arrival anyway, even though the sleeper pax were supposed to have occupancy until 6:30 am. I don't know whether or not the SCAs claimed the pay anyway.

In any case, Amtrak gave up on that and now booting the sleeper pax upon arrival, like other trains, is official.

It is yet another case of Amtrak not following through.

Amtrak should have counseled SCA's who did so, and disciplined them if they continued to do so.

 

[zephyr17]

Amtrak should have counseled SCA's who did so, and disciplined them if they continued to do so.

But tolerating them doing what they wanted and throwing in the towel is so much more Amtrak's style.

 

[jis]

Well, WashDOT is starting to try and get a cross-state servoce going via Stampede Pass, Yakima and Pasco. Perhaps if ODOT chipped in they might do a Pasco-Portland section.

That really isn't a "back up" for LD service though.

I was just talking to someone quite senior at All Aboard Washington and was surprised to learn that WashDOT is actually adamantly opposed to pursuing the Seattle - Spokane service at this time. It is a number of Legislators that have been pushing for it, as is AAWA. Of course beyond just pushing for it in speeches if the Legislators come up with enough money to essentially buy off WashDOT's objections then this could happen, but not until then apparently.

 

[RovinMoses]

Here is a good article from Railway Age regarding EB recent operational challenges: What’s Triggering Empire Builder Service Setbacks? - Railway Age

 

[flitcraft]

I was just talking to someone quite senior at All Aboard Washington and was surprised to learn that WashDOT is actually adamantly opposed to pursuing the Seattle - Spokane service at this time.

What's WashDOT's objection? It seems to me that Seattle-Spokane passenger rail service would be intrinsically important, given the size of both metro areas, and on top of that, it would provide a route across the passes when they are shut down, which is often during the winter. We won't schedule travel to eastern Washington for several months a year, given the undependability of highway travel cross-state.

 

[jis]

What's WashDOT's objection? It seems to me that Seattle-Spokane passenger rail service would be intrinsically important, given the size of both metro areas, and on top of that, it would provide a route across the passes when they are shut down, which is often during the winter. We won't schedule travel to eastern Washington for several months a year, given the undependability of highway travel cross-state.

Usually it is lack of enough funding to do everything on their todo list, and the prioritizing that they have done, is my guess. They have prioritized the coastal corridor upto 6x per day between Portland and Seattle. The inland route to be effective also needs a lot more work and hence requires a lot more funding to make it happen apparently, specially since there is a desire to use the Stampede Pass Route, which currently has no passenger facilities anywhere west of Pasco, rather than the Stevens Pass Route. Back when there was a North Coast Hiawatha, the Empire Builder used to run through the Stampede Pass while the NCH ran through the Stevens Pass route.

But I will ask my friends at AAWA and see if they can throw any more light on it.

 

[Gary Behling]

Since this is a discussion about the Empire Builder I would like to ask a question. I am planning a trip next year and part of the trip is the Empire Builder from either Seattle or Portland to Chicago. Is there anyone who has taken the trip from both starting points who has an opinion on whether Portland or Seattle to Spokane has the best scenery?

 

[jis]

Since this is a discussion about the Empire Builder I would like to ask a question. I am planning a trip next year and part of the trip is the Empire Builder from either Seattle or Portland to Chicago. Is there anyone who has taken the trip from both starting points who has an opinion on whether Portland or Seattle to Spokane has the best scenery?

I have taken both and my preference is the Portland Section because I absolutely love the ride up Columbia Gorge. Best if one has a seat or Roomette on the Right Hand Side of the train.

The Seattle section also has some good scenery along the Puget Sound between Seattle and Everett, but after that there is nothing like the Columbia Gorge. Just my taste in scenery I suppose..