Fare Buckets - and when do they increase/decrease?

[jis]

UK visitor here... (I'm sorry if this observation has been made before, I haven't read every post).

Is the price-structure for the long-distance named trains/routes skewed by the cruise market? People who are accustomed to up-market cruises can afford to pay more for a super-deluxe service, this means that 'normal' (I can't think of a better word) passengers who want to make the trip in reasonable comfort but without fawning attendants and fancy meals have no realistic alternative. I get the economics and practicalities - the railways need to maximise their revenues and trains can only get so big.

To start with, you are correct in your observation about the lack of affordable class of travel between Coach and Sleeper Roomette.

As an observation of mine from significant experience in using Amtrak's various Sleeper accommodations at various fares, I would very much doubt that anyone would describe Amtrak's Sleeper Service as one involving "fawning attendants" in any fare class or accommodation.

The fares charged are just IMHO somewhat mindless application of supply and demand to exploit customers' willingness to pay, in order to maximize yield, sometimes ignoring things like overall occupancy and such. People from Cruise ship experience are very rapidly disabused of such expectations.

Having said that, you might come across discussion of things like Slumbercoach or Sections, which were available in the past to fill exactly the niche that you speak of, which Amtrak got rid of, or rather did not replace with new generation of the same for various reasons including being squeezed for funding and trying to make the most of what they had, not often very competently some would surmise.

At present there is an attempt to fill that gap in the opportunity presented by the on going exercise of replacing the entire fleet for Long Distance service. So yeah, most people would and do agree with the point you make and the advocacy groups are trying to do something about it. But it takes time.

 

[Brian Battuello]

As a 50 year plus Amtrak and pre-Amtrak rider, I am blown away by the prices people are paying for roomettes and bedrooms. I understand the severe capacity shortage, but I can't imagine why people think $2000 plus is worth it for anything on wheels. I wonder how many people are hard core Amtrak fans with money, or just people that need transportation, won't fly (even in business class) and with money. And in both cases willing to put up with the inconsistent and in some cases just plain bad service. When it works, it is nice (room, food, lounge car, scenery etc.) but you'd think enough people would have bad experiences to keep them from doing it again. Frankly, at this point I'd rather put $2k into a cruise than into two nights on Amtrak.

 

[zephyr17]

UK visitor here... (I'm sorry if this observation has been made before, I haven't read every post).

Is the price-structure for the long-distance named trains/routes skewed by the cruise market? People who are accustomed to up-market cruises can afford to pay more for a super-deluxe service, this means that 'normal' (I can't think of a better word) passengers who want to make the trip in reasonable comfort but without fawning attendants and fancy meals have no realistic alternative. I get the economics and practicalities - the railways need to maximise their revenues and trains can only get so big.

It is really mostly result of highly limited supply. Since COVID they have not been able to run what had been full consists (aka "rakes") on most trains. Trains that had had 2 sleepers and a transdorm, pretty standard on the Western trains, now may have one sleeper and a transdorm, so what has been 10 Bedrooms, 30 roomettes (including 4 for revenue sale in the transdorm), 2 Family Rooms and 2 Accessible Bedrooms is now 5 Bedrooms, about 17 roomettes (same 4 in the in the transdorm, but they appear to be opening up more for revenue sale in the transdorm in some cases), 1 Family Room and 1 Accessible Room.

Amtrak had been getting more aggressive in their yield management even before COVID, but the equipment shortage created by their fumble fingered response greatly accelerated it. It caused a situation of sharply reduced supply which Amtrak yield managers are taking full advantage of.

Anyone expecting "...fawning attendants and fancy meals..." is in for a very rude surprise. They very well may end up with an attendant that completely ghosts them but having decent, not fancy, meals in the dining car. Worse, they could wind up with a surly individual who demands that they stay in their room for the entire trip, bringing them poorly reheated frozen dinners and dictating that they'll put the berths down at 7 pm, take it or leave it. That and being 12 hours late.

Yes, there have been people who expect cruise ship level service and they are usually bitterly disappointed. I've run into them on occasion. They become "never agains". And they may be among the ones purchasing the limited supply at very expensive prices, expecting a luxury product (which Amtrak is not, even at its best) for luxury prices.

Most here recognize that high buckets are a very poor value proposition and will not book them. Hence this thread pretty much devoted to strategies for getting (and recognizing) lower buckets. That and the requisite complaining.

Even low buckets usually do not present a good value proposition in purely economic terms, but love of train travel overrides that for many of us.

 

[fdaley]

Been following this thread with interest. The newer Amtrak yield management system does have a plus side for those of us who can't really book trips 11 months in advance (in my case, 3 months can be a stretch). I was able to book a recent trip on the Capitol Limited on short notice - a week before departure. And the train was showing roomette availability end-to-end on both directions in the lowest bucket. I didn't see the "Only X rooms left" message and I never try the 8 bookings thing, only searched for one. Guessing that these were light travel days so the system kept the prices low. Coach was full, 70% at booking and 90% by departure time, and by then, the rooms were also full. Wondering if the remaining inventory was filled with successful "bid-ups" from coach passengers. I didn't check daily after booking; it's possible the rooms were reserved before the bids would have been processed.

My strong impression is that Amtrak's current structuring of yield management means there are more frequently good deals to be had late in the game (i.e. within a month of departure) -- for those who have the patience to wait and check prices repeatedly and who don't mind choosing another mode (or simply not traveling) if it doesn't work out. And where booking months in advance used to increase the odds of getting a better rate, now nearly all of the sleeper inventory is held at high-end prices until the final weeks before departure, when the price drops only for departures that haven't sold well.

This is good for people whose travel plans are flexible and easily changed. But it makes it harder to use Amtrak for travel tied to specific event dates where one wants to plan well in advance. And of course, it has become much more challenging to book longer trips involving multiple trains and stopovers without spending a fortune.

 

[zephyr17]

If you have to fire sale your inventory in the final few weeks before departure to move it, your yield management strategy isn't really working. Just sayin', Amtrak.

 

[niemi24s]

As taking a cruise has come up several times in this thread, I'll offer these findings based on a cruise search for the coming Fall. Prices are for the cruise only (including taxes, port fees and gratuities) and nothing else. Data from 18 cruises, each starting and ending in North America ranging from 5 to 13 nights in interior rooms (the cheapest) on affordable cruise lines (Celebrity, Holland America, Princess and Royal Caribbean) with fares from Cruise.com within the last week or so. Cruising on the ritzier lines could be many, many times the following nightly cost.

• Costs range from $1113 to $4708 with an average of $2419
• Average length of these 18 cruises is 9.33 nights
• Average nightly cost for two people is thus $259

Making an apples to oranges comparison would therefore give a trip from NYP to EMY a nightly cost for two people in a Bedroom of $259 X 3 = $777.

 

[jis]

If you have to fire sale your inventory in the final few weeks before departure to move it, your yield management strategy isn't really working. Just sayin', Amtrak.

Never look a gift horse in the mouth, much less educate the horse

 

[Brian Battuello]

Cruise lines have a detailed pricing curve to match predicted yield from years in advance right up to departure. The price doesn't stay the same, but it drifts up and down daily, adjusting based on the historic rate of booking on previous cruises. Only if they make a serious misjudgement on the cruises' popularity does it significantly drop. One example is early spring east coast Canadian cruises. The first cruise of the year is often undersubscribed and a good value if you don't mind the cold.

And cruise lines make almost all their money and incremental profit off on-board purchases. They will fill the boat in the last few weeks with free tickets to travel agents. There is a joke that if they have an empty cabin, they will drag one of the baggage porters on board. It would be interesting if Amtrak figured out a way to make money with drinks, upsell dinners and gambling on board...

 

[zephyr17]

It would be interesting if Amtrak figured out a way to make money with drinks, upsell dinners and gambling on board...

Or hawking art and jewelry at inflated prices...

 

[Keith1951]

The train to SAS is not as enjoyable. They have frozen meals, no dining car, and no Sightseer Lounge.

If you can fly down to Houston on 10/4, you can get Train #1 to LAX for for $1,850. You could also fly to SAS and get it for $1,638, but you'd have to board at 2:45 am on 10/5. The booking engine also shows Train #421 (which is physically the same train) from SAS at $1,254, but the Schedule page shows it being canceled, so that might be risky.

If you're wondering, #421 is a sleeping car and coach from the Texas Eagle which are attached to #1 at SAS. Booking it from CHI shows it canceled, but it's bookable from SAS. But, as I said, the Schedule page shows it canceled out of SAS, as well. I would be nervous about trying to book it out of SAS.

Train #1 is the Sunset Limited, and the last I heard, it has full traditional dining, a diner, and a Sightseer Lounge.

Where can I go see the info that CHI-SAS serves frozen meals, and has no dining or sightseeing car? Its not that I dont believe you, I would just like to know how to find info like this on my own, in case I try another train.

 

[zephyr17]

Where can I go see the info that CHI-SAS serves frozen meals, and has no dining or sightseeing car? Its not that I dont believe you, I would just like to know how to find info like this on my own, in case I try another train.

If you want to verify it is Flex (frozen dinners), you can verify the Texas Eagle is on Flex here:
https://www.amtrak.com/onboard/meals-dining/flexible-dining.html
As to the Sightseer, it was withdrawn a couple of years ago. The Eagle carries a diner/lounge. You may or may not be able to use it as a lounge outside of meal times depending on the whims of the crew on your particular train.

Both are well established facts, and the reason the Eagle is on my "do not ride" list currently. The Eagle pretty much sucks.

 

[zephyr17]

@Keith1951, all other Western trains are on traditional dining, so you don't have to worry about it for any others. Also all the rest have Sightseers, although there have been relatively frequent reports recently of them being dropped at the last minute due to bad order cars. But that is something you cannot plan around. The Capitol Limited is another Superliner train without a Sightseer, and the City of New Orleans has a Sightseer but no diner or diner/lounge and serves a modified Flex menu due to lack of a convection oven.

Honestly, your best source of information on the services and amenities on various trains is right here. The Amtrak website can be hard to navigate and is sometimes out of date. The phone agents are good to quote fares and sell tickets but that is about it. They are usually ignorant of the ground truth of conditions and services onboard trains, especially the LDs.

 

[joelkfla]

Where can I go see the info that CHI-SAS serves frozen meals, and has no dining or sightseeing car? Its not that I dont believe you, I would just like to know how to find info like this on my own, in case I try another train.

The lack of a Sightseer Lounge (SSL) on the CHI-SAS segment of the Texas Eagle has been discussed much on this board, as has the lack of traditional dining and a dining car. Here is a clip of the northbound train leaving STL this morning:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxHhNpSukhqhJLXOX5MMFiTwPtcu0o1OdAThe SSL is easily recognized by windows that extend to the roof, and there is none on this train. Food service cars can be identified by the lack of any windows on the lower level. The 2nd car is a Cafe car which is shared by the sleeper & coach passengers.

Traditional dining is the full service dining in a dining car, which is served on most western trains, including the Sunset Ltd. and the Southwest Chief. Flexible dining is preplated, reheated meals served in a plastic container. The Amtrak on-board dining pages will tell you which trains have traditional, and which have Flex. The Texas Eagle has Flex between CHI & SAS. The type of dining is also noted in the Trip Details pull-down on the booking page:

 

[Peter Sexton]

My price comparison was done as follows:

1. I found the earliest VIA rail bedroom available Vancouver to Toronto. This was November 17 on the date VIA was first available, all earlier were sold out.
2. I priced Seattle to Detroit, a similar distance with AMTRAK, in the closet accommodation, a bedroom with shower and toilet en suite.

Forget all the gibberish about buckets, etc. This is an apples to apples comparison as this is the earliest this comparison was available.

Further forget the gibberish about what route AMTRAK would give, as I got this directly from AMTRAK.com without any fiddling.

 

[fdaley]

How about this?

November 17 Vancouver to Toronto discounted "cabin for 2" USD 2,883.
November 17 Seattle to Detroit, bedroom with shower and toilet en suite USD 1,835.

Consider this for additional service.

Of course, the Amtrak bedroom is only from Seattle to Chicago; the portion from Chicago to Detroit is probably business class if you used the default setting on Amtrak's site. The gap between the two prices seems less when you consider:

VIA = four nights in sleeper; four dinners, four breakfasts, 3-4 lunches; plus dome cars
Amtrak = two nights in sleeper; two of each meal

 

[zephyr17]

Yield management buckets on Amtrak are not gibberish, unfortunately they are very real.

You picked a day that had an unusually good Amtrak fare that cannot be generalized since they can vary day to day, and which could have been thousands more as @niemi24s pointed out, whereas VIA's are stable by season. For general fare comparisons, a more valid comparison would be with the likely Amtrak bucket during a given period rather than a single day or, even better, a wide sampling of fares from numerous days in the travel season. Of course, if one is actually planning a trip, that single day's fares are paramount.

If you ignore Amtrak's yield management system, over time you will probably spend a lot more money than you have to. "Fiddling" will save you money.

 

[Sidney]

As a 50 year plus Amtrak and pre-Amtrak rider, I am blown away by the prices people are paying for roomettes and bedrooms. I understand the severe capacity shortage, but I can't imagine why people think $2000 plus is worth it for anything on wheels. I wonder how many people are hard core Amtrak fans with money, or just people that need transportation, won't fly (even in business class) and with money. And in both cases willing to put up with the inconsistent and in some cases just plain bad service. When it works, it is nice (room, food, lounge car, scenery etc.) but you'd think enough people would have bad experiences to keep them from doing it again. Frankly, at this point I'd rather put $2k into a cruise than into two nights on Amtrak.

As a thirty year plus Amtrak rider and a train lover I can’t imagine paying over $2000 for a 48 hour ride in a sleeper regardless of how good the food is. Again apples to oranges and it has been discussed here,cruises. We have a 12 day transatlantic cruise next April at $1800 for both of us with food and amenities that far exceed what Amtrak offers.

 

[zephyr17]

As a thirty year plus Amtrak rider and a train lover I can’t imagine paying over $2000 for a 48 hour ride in a sleeper regardless of how good the food is. Again apples to oranges and it has been discussed here,cruises. We have a 12 day transatlantic cruise next April at $1800 for both of us with food and amenities that far exceed what Amtrak offers.

Unfortunately, some people apparently will pay it.

 

[Brian Battuello]

To be accurate, we are only seeing the price of the *next* room to be sold. Unless you check later and find that the train is sold out, no evidence that anyone actually paid it, and the price might have declined before the train left. I learned in marketing classes that the ideal plane leaves with one empty seat. Still...

 

[Ray Way]

It’s two posts above yours. It’s official thread is here. Newest chart is also the last post in that thread.
https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/long-distance-train-coach-sleeper-fares-buckets.77062/

Thank you. I was able to enlarge and print it!

 

[niemi24s]

Thank you. I was able to enlarge and print it!

FYI, an updated chart (with minor changes that could be penciled in) was posted a few hours after your printing.

 

[Sidney]

If you wanted to go to Seattle today on the Empire Builder from Chicago a roomette is $588. Same route on the last day possible to book March 28 2024 is $1277.

 

[Keith1951]

If it was my guess I would say they're trying to sell it before the train leaves.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Unfortunately people don’t book a 2 night train trip 12 hours in advance. That type of yield management is fine and appropriate for an airline not so much for train travel. In my opinion the sweet spot to dump inventory would be 10 days out. Not saying lower fares shouldn’t also be available at some point before then as well but at 10 days out most people traveling 800 mi or more have their plans set.

Yes there’s bid up but it’s comparing apples and oranges. A lot of people for whatever reason can’t or won’t ride in coach and don’t want to risk it, meaning Amtrak loses out on revenue from this customer base. A customer base that anecdotally would be loyal and repeat customers.

 

[Sidney]

If it was my guess I would say they're trying to sell it before the train leaves.

Obviously. My beef with Amtrak’s pricing system is that most people plan for a multi day trip months in advance. At almost $1300 for a roomette eleven months out and $2700 for a bedroom,those prices would deter me and most people from booking.

Why can’t the gurus who price sleepers make the fare more reasonable?

I guess there is no answer.