Fare Buckets - and when do they increase/decrease?

[Bostontoallpoints]

A cruise will have thousands of cabins to fill and a workforce comprised of people from third world countries who make a pittance, far below US wages.

An Amtrak train will have at most 10 bedrooms under current conditions and 15 back when some trains had 3 Superliner sleepers. There will be as few as 2 bedrooms on some trains. Amtrak OBS is provided by a relatively well paid unionized work force with a good benefits package.

I think those simple facts speak for themselves as far as comparability goes.

Yes, a cruise offers a much better value at a much lower price.

 

[John Webb]

The only way to really get out of the situation is using those taxpayer funds to increase supply. That's a win win, resulting in better fares for passengers and more revenue for Amtrak. Unfortunately, that apparently will not happen until the 2030s, and that is assuming that Amtrak actually orders sufficient sleepers, which is by no means a good assumption.

A scarce commodity for which demand exceeds supply must be rationed by some means, irrespective of whether or not a subsidy is involved. Price is the normal means of rationing in a market system.

I am by no means defending Amtrak management. Their relentless and single minded focus on cost cutting to the exclusion of everything else is the direct cause of the current equipment shortage. That, in turn, has reduced an already thin supply into a downright shortage and leads us into the situation we are now in.

Amtrak management's failure to support its overall constituency, including the aged and disabled, is pretty much due to that relentless focus on short term costs, ignoring its larger mandate in my view.

Agreed!

 

[zephyr17]

Yes, a cruise offers a much better value at a much lower price.

I have never argued once that Amtrak sleepers are anything but a poor value proposition. At high bucket they are a downright terrible value proposition.

 

[Sidney]

C C

I have never argued once that Amtrak sleepers are anything but a poor value proposition. At high bucket they are a downright terrible value proposition.

Agree. As I have said if people would not pay the high buckets, prices would drop to reasonable. However,if only one person will pay…and you know the rest.

 

[dwebarts]

I'd been planning on taking a long rail trip at some point this year, and after several attempts to find a reasonable rate, I've concluded I may as well fly to Singapore or Australia instead.

 

[Bonser]

I was pricing NYP-SEA for next March. Roomette is $2377 and bedroom is $4638. Unbelievable. Amtrak seems to be dangling highest bucket first even in a slow travel season. I know it will go down but how much is the question.

 

[trimetbusfan]

I was pricing NYP-SEA for next March. Roomette is $2377 and bedroom is $4638. Unbelievable. Amtrak seems to be dangling highest bucket first even in a slow travel season. I know it will go down but how much is the question.

This is normal. High bucket this far out. They will almost certainly drop to lower buckets as the date narrows in. There are other threads on this forum that follow that more closely.

 

[Sidney]

Charging $3000 plus for a bedroom is outrageous. Yeah the answer supply and demand,right? Amtrak should not be charging that ridiculous price to begin with. It’s pure greed and price gouging at it’s worst and I can’t believe anyone will defend that.Who decides on these prices?

 

[zephyr17]

Charging $3000 plus for a bedroom is outrageous. Yeah the answer supply and demand,right? Amtrak should not be charging that ridiculous price to begin with. It’s pure greed and price gouging at it’s worst and I can’t believe anyone will defend that.Who decides on these prices?

Well, apparently they do. Otherwise they wouldn't charge them. As I have said before, the supply is highly limited and it does not take very many people willing to pay it to keep them there.

Amtrak yield management decides on the prices. It is just their job to manage the yield to maximize return on a limited and perishable commodity, that's why they call it that.

No price is outrageous that someone is willing to pay. Have you looked at the price of housing lately?

 

[Sidney]

Well, apparently they do. Otherwise they wouldn't charge them. As I have said before, the supply is highly limited and it does not take very many people willing to pay it to keep them there.

Amtrak yield management decides on the prices. It is just their job to manage the yield to maximize return on a limited and perishable commodity, that's why they call it that.

No price is outrageous that someone is willing to pay. Have you looked at the price of housing lately?

Yes,housing is outrageous as well. Still, paying over $3000 for a 48 hour ride on the Empire Builder is outrageous and obscene. Obviously,you and I won’t pay it. I still maintain that charging that kind of price is price gouging and greed Why can’t Amtrak yield management lower the high bucket? Why can’t it be done?

 

[zephyr17]

Yes,housing is outrageous as well. Still, paying over $3000 for a 48 hour ride on the Empire Builder is outrageous and obscene. Obviously,you and I won’t pay it. I still maintain that charging that kind of price is price gouging and greed Why can’t Amtrak yield management lower the high bucket? Why can’t it be done?

Because their whole job is to maximize revenue. If they can get it and the room doesn't go out empty, they're doing their jobs. If rooms remain at that price and relatively consistently don't sell, then they will have lost all revenue from that inventory and they're failing at their jobs. They will have misread demand if that were the case and should have reallocated inventory into a lower bucket at least a couple months in advance.

I agree that a high bucket Bedroom is a really terrible value proposition, but there are a lot of things that are priced in a way that make them rotten values. It is what it is. I don't choose to pay it, but since it sleeper rail travel is very much a discretionary purchase I don't regard it as gouging, as it would be for non-discretionary purchases, like boosting the prices for plywood and bottled water several fold in the face of an approaching hurricane.

The only real solution is to increase supply to better meet demand, a win-win with lower prices for the passenger and more revenue for Amtrak. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen anytime soon, if it ever does.

 

[Sidney]

I know you are defending Amtrak and their pricing. Then again, in the last few weeks I have seen bedrooms go for $1500 or less on the EB with one week’s advance booking and roomettes at $588 low bucket.

I have been riding Amtrak in sleepers for decades and I have never seen bedrooms at $2000, yet $3000 for the Western trains leaving Chicago on the full route.

I love riding Amtrak and will continue but I will always pay low bucket. It just infuriates me looking at those outrageous prices on a service that is good, not great. No matter what anyone says I cannot justify Amtrak charging $3000 plus for a sleeper. That’s my opinion. As stated,if only one person is foolish enough to pay $3600 for a bedroom for two on a 48 hour trip,well you know the rest, Just venting

 

[zephyr17]

I know you are defending Amtrak and their pricing. Then again, in the last few weeks I have seen bedrooms go for $1500 or less on the EB with one week’s advance booking and roomettes at $588 low bucket.

I have been riding Amtrak in sleepers for decades and I have never seen bedrooms at $2000, yet $3000 for the Western trains leaving Chicago on the full route.

I love riding Amtrak and will continue but I will always pay low bucket. It just infuriates me looking at those outrageous prices on a service that is good, not great. No matter what anyone says I cannot justify Amtrak charging $3000 plus for a sleeper. That’s my opinion. As stated,if only one person is foolish enough to pay $3600 for a bedroom for two on a 48 hour trip,well you know the rest, Just venting

I am not defending Amtrak. They got themselves into this situation by mismanaging their response to COVID and created an equipment shortage that was wholly avoidable thereby reducing an already thin supply to a downright shortage.

What follows is the natural result of a shortage, where supply falls far short of demand. In my view, it is simple economics. The supply is short enough that demand for it at that level appears may be pretty inelastic and insensitive to price. For good or bad, Amtrak is taking advantage of demand outpacing a limited supply, as I would expect them to do, even though the fault for the shortage is their own mismanagement.

If they are dropping prices from high bucket to low bucket at the last minute on a regular basis, to me that would mean they are bungling yield management, too, and losing revenue.

I differentiate supply and demand from value proposition. Sleepers are poor value propositions even at lower buckets and terrible at the high ones. I exercise my discretion by not taking them up on their terrible proposal and try to find a better one (which I am usually successful at, though it takes far more time, effort and patience than it should). But that is different issue from supply and demand. If enough people accept their proposal, bad as it is, demand is there and they have every right to price their (lousy) product for what they can get for it.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Because their whole job is to maximize revenue. If they can get it and the room doesn't go out empty, they're doing their jobs. If rooms remain at that price and relatively consistently don't sell, then they will have lost all revenue from that inventory and they're failing at their jobs. They will have misread demand if that were the case and should have reallocated inventory into a lower bucket at least a couple months in advance.

I agree that a high bucket Bedroom is a really terrible value proposition, but there are a lot of things that are priced in a way that make them rotten values. It is what it is. I don't choose to pay it, but since it sleeper rail travel is very much a discretionary purchase I don't regard it as gouging, as it would be for non-discretionary purchases, like boosting the prices for plywood and bottled water several fold in the face of an approaching hurricane.

The only real solution is to increase supply to better meet demand, a win-win with lower prices for the passenger and more revenue for Amtrak. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen anytime soon, if it ever does.

“The only real solution is to increase supply to better meet demand, a win-win with lower prices for the passenger and more revenue for Amtrak. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen anytime soon, if it ever does”



That sums things up we can debate, talk, argue about it forever. Management has decided this is how they want to run Amtrak. Until policy makers, advocates and us demand a new management this is what we are stuck with. At least there has been a slight adjustment in the yield management last minute fares. Unfortunately these only apply to roomettes and bedrooms. Family bedrooms are always basically full price or close to it. I believe it was JiS that mentioned Orlando being a low yield airline market. He is definitely right, we got back last night. Dubuque Iowa to Orlando on Avelo $31 nonstop. Just bought tickets for Oct that trip cost us $39. For a new airline with limited infrastructure their website is so user friendly. I can page through every fare on every date from DBQ to MCO til the end of their schedule in 90 seconds. If Amtrak would just have transparency and have a fare calendar on the website half our complaints would go away. Finding a low fare is a game for me as it is for others. Its a game I’m willing to give 30 minutes to, not hours.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Some of you are very picky.

I'm equally surprised by some folks lack of pickiness considering how much Amtrak charges for premium travel.

Not saying [...] just saying.

 

[MARC Rider]

I'm equally surprised by some folks lack of pickiness considering how much Amtrak charges for premium travel.

If you think Amtrak is overcharging, then you should be really upset at what hotels are charging these days. $300 a night for a 2 or 3 star hotel in almost any major American city.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If you think Amtrak is overcharging, then you should be really upset at what hotels are charging these days. $300 a night for a 2 or 3 star hotel in almost any major American city.

Yeah, it's a big mess as moderate inflation is used as a convenient cover for rampant greed and absurd price gouging.

Low tier [hotel] brands have started charging high tier rates and high tier brands are busy abandoning benefits and introducing new fees for every minor kindness and convenience.

+

I agree that modern hotels offer wannabe Howard Johnson service at Ritz Carlton prices. I guess they figure if travelers are willing to overpay for Marwood and clean their own rooms for AirheadBnB they'll put up with anything at any price (and apparently they're right).

+

I feel bad for people who are at the age when they're just starting their travel experiences and will either need to save up double what we paid or take half as many trips as we did.

 

[Peter Sexton]

One more time. Compare the price of premium travel in the USA vs Canada. AMTRAK is 40% less than VIA.

 

[zephyr17]

One more time. Compare the price of premium travel in the USA vs Canada. AMTRAK is 40% less than VIA.

Off season Sleeper Plus discount fare Vancouver-Toronto in a cabin is $2070.60 CAD including taxes. That's $1519.40 USD at today's exchange rate. VIA's fares aren't really yield managed, but stable and priced by travel season.

A roomette fare Seattle-New York, a trip of roughly equivalent distance (though a day shorter) on the same test date, November 3, 2023, is $2017 USD.

That makes VIA about 25% less factoring in exchange rates. Even just taking the currencies at par, VIA would only be about 3% more. VIA is also a much better onboard experience, with plentiful dome cars and a great dining car with a menu that changes every day. Note Seattle to New York involves one day of reheated Flex meals.

So there's that.

You may want to check your math.

 

[Peter Sexton]

I went through this exercise 3 weeks ago. I found the earliest Vancouver to Toronto room fare available. I then compared Seattle to Detroit. It was 40% less.

 

[Palmland]

I’m still spoiled by the days when Amtrak had the regional awards system. We started one trip in Birmingham (a dividing line for two regions) but went east on Crescent, then CL, CZ to Emeryville for 40k points - in a bedroom.

Fares are now to the point where the only LD train that has sleeper fares that makes sense for us is AutoTrain since we always need a vehicle at destination for northeast travels. Let’s hope fares are lowered when additional sleepers are back in service- but not holding our breath.

 

[AmtrakFlyer]

One more time. Compare the price of premium travel in the USA vs Canada. AMTRAK is 40% less than VIA.

Via is a first class operation, Amtrak is not. Via has true sales and off season fares. Amtrak does not.

 

[zephyr17]

I went through this exercise 3 weeks ago. I found the earliest Vancouver to Toronto room fare available. I then compared Seattle to Detroit. It was 40% less.

I did it just now. All the figures I used I got today, using 11/3/2023 as a departure date. You can check at viarail.ca and Amtrak.com if you doubt them.

Detroit is not equivalent in either trip duration or accommodation. New York is a closer approximation in both trip duration and accommodation.

Finally, this is an analysis that is neither theoretical to me nor new. I take a Seattle to New York trip every year in November, always by rail. Usually VIA one way and Amtrak the other. I track VIA and Amtrak prices for it and have for years, especially because I won't pay high bucket on the Amtrak side. 40% higher for VIA was generally in the ballpark, though a bit on the high side, years ago, before Amtrak became so aggressive in yield management and exchange rates were not quite so favorable. Today, 40% more for
VIA is an outlier that reflects a lowest bucket Amtrak fare that often cannot be obtained. The 25% lower fare for VIA that I found today may also be something of an outlier, reflecting high(er? I didn't check my fare results against the chart) Amtrak buckets. But, as many, many posts in this thread reflect, high(er) buckets are much more commonly available than low bucket is. It helps a bit that at least VIA's fares aren't volatile like Amtrak's are, so at least one side of the equation is remains stable.

Bottom line, on any given day, at least in VIA's off-peak season, chances are VIA's fares will not be significantly higher than Amtrak's, may often be lower, and may very occasionally be significantly higher, all depending on where Amtrak's volatile fares are for any given departure.

And VIA is a much better experience than Amtrak generally is. I've done both, a lot.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

One more time. Compare the price of premium travel in the USA vs Canada. AMTRAK is 40% less than VIA.

I live thousands of miles away from the nearest VIA station so I fail to see how VIA is competing with AMTRAK for most of my business. Where I live Amtrak competes with AA, UA, & DL and first class on any of these is half the cost or less than Amtrak sleeper service.

 

[zephyr17]

I live thousands of miles away from the nearest VIA station so I fail to see how VIA is competing with AMTRAK for most of my business. Where I live Amtrak competes with AA, UA, & DL and first class on any of these is half the cost or less than Amtrak sleeper service.

Well, in my case they kinda do compete for my business. But it could only even be remotely considered a point-to-point competitor for Amtrak between the Pacific Northwest and the East Coast.

However, with that said, the long distance rail sleeper market has a large contingent where the train ride itself is a large part of the objective the trip. People fly to Chicago or the Bay Area just to ride the Zephyr, spend a few days riding the Zephyr and enjoying the Bay Area and flying home. The VIA Canadian is very much a competitor for that market. In fact, it concentrates almost exclusively on that market for sleepers. Unlike Amtrak, it really isn't practical basic transportation with its twice weekly frequency and long schedule. Most people onboard are on it just to ride it and spend some time in Jasper and/or Vancouver, especially in peak season. In the off season, there are a few more riders using it as transportation, although even they've gone to some trouble in order to do it (like me). You pretty much don't see many Canadians on it in the summer. They're hugely outnumbered by overseas travelers then.

To actually get between cities on the route, like Edmonton, Saskatoon, and Winnipeg, it is vastly more convienent and much cheaper to fly. Even Amtrak’s diminutive competition with air travel is much more practical and usable than the Canadian.

So for the "experiential" market, VIA is very much in the running against trains like the Zephyr and the Builder (not so much the Eagle). That's their business model.

In closing, I want to say all the above is why I do NOT see the Canadian as a model for Amtrak LDs. Bring Amtrak's non-existent service standards up to VIA's, sure. As an overall business model, hell no. Amtrak needs to remain viable basic transportation.