Fatal Talgo Derailment in Spain

[jis]

See At least 20 killed as train derails in Spain.

 

[sitzplatz17]

Wow that looks really bad. Thoughts go out to all those involved.

Looks like it was a high-speed AVE train. First time in awhile we've had any really bad high speed train accidents in Europe.

 

[Anderson]

Sorry to hear about that.

If I had to guess, there's at least a passing chance track condition is found to be at fault. Spain's finances have been a basket case over the last few years, so I would not be shocked if they were shorting the maintenance a la Railtrack in the UK back in the 90s.

 

[jis]

Here is an article from Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/spain-train-derailment-santiago-de-compostela_n_3646813.html

and here is one from BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23442018

Wow that looks really bad. Thoughts go out to all those involved.
Looks like it was a high-speed AVE train. First time in awhile we've had any really bad high speed train accidents in Europe.

Yes, it looks suspiciously like an AVE Class 102 from the little one can make out from the crumpled mess. But for the life of me, I can't figure out what happened to the other end of the train. It seems to have gone missing. Unless of course it was a loco hauled Talgo, which it does not look like from the little of the power head that you can see at one end in one of the photos.

 

[jis]

This BBC video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23444848 gives us some more information. It was an Alvia not an AVE so Class 120 or 130. And for the first time we can also see where the other end of the train is.

 

[DET63]

Train Crash In Spain: 'Up To 45 Killed'

Witnesses describe the horrific sight of bodies on the tracks after carriages carrying more than 200 people derailed.

The number of people dead after a train derailed in one of Spain's worst rail disasters has reportedly risen as high as 45.

Many more are said to be critically injured and Spanish media reported emergency services were attempting to rescue several people still trapped inside carriages.

Lines of bodies covered with blankets were seen at the side of the tracks.

The crash happened as the train carrying 218 passengers plus crew approached Santiago de Compostela, a popular pilgrimage city in the northwestern region of Galicia.

 

[transit54]

The NYT is reporting that the train was traveling about double the posted speed for the area - they stated the limit was 50 and the train was operating at 110 MPH:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/world/europe/scores-are-feared-dead-as-high-speed-train-derails-in-spain.html?hp

Very unfortunate accident. Obviously much more will come out once a full investigation takes place, but I'd have to imagine that this system would have a speed limiting system much like Amtrak does on the NEC, so I wonder what went wrong here.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

That is some serious speeding if it's true. This could also be caused by high heat bending the tracks. Maybe the track was designed for fast speeds but heat restrictions reduced the limit.

Bloomberg reports that at least 77 people are now dead : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-24/spanish-train-derailment-kills-45-47-people-feijoo-says-on-rtve.html

This slew of railway accidents, both fatal and non-fatal, could reduce the train's reputation worldwide as a media shock.

 

[Paulus]

No ERTMS where this occurred, but rather a legacy system called ASFA which, according to a Google translated Spanish wiki page, seems similar to BNSF's ATS.

 

[George Harris]

That is some serious speeding if it's true. This could also be caused by high heat bending the tracks. Maybe the track was designed for fast speeds but heat restrictions reduced the limit.
Bloomberg reports that at least 77 people are now dead : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-24/spanish-train-derailment-kills-45-47-people-feijoo-says-on-rtve.html

This slew of railway accidents, both fatal and non-fatal, could reduce the train's reputation worldwide as a media shock.

A kink would have been visible and talked about,, even if not in any of the published pictures. Inclined to believe serious overspeed. What I find unnerving is how mangled the coaches are from what is apparently overturning without significant collisions with other trains or major structures.

 

[Texan Eagle]

This article (in Spanish) mentions that the train was going at 180 km/hr on the curve that had a speed restriction of 80 km/hr. I am completely ignorant about Spanish railways, can someone who is more knowledgeable please explain how this is possible? Are there no checks in place in Spain about overspeeding trains, and is overspeeding common in this country?

I know in India which has a relatively technologically-backward rail system compared to rest of the world, even there overspeeding is taken very very seriously and there are never cases of the engineer going more than 5-10 km/hr above posted limit. I find it hard to believe that a European country with high speed rail has no safety checks to detect and prevent overspeeding, or I could be completely wrong in my assumption since we don't know all the details yet. Someone who knows more than me, please explain.

 

[wendtsc]

Latest is 77 dead, 130 injured. Truly tragic. They obviously aren't yet focused on a cause as rescue and recovery is much more important at this time, but a few things stand out to me. If speed was the cause and the train was traveling at twice the posted limit as some are already claiming, does that mean Spain had no PTC system on this line? Second, 77 dead out of only 222 aboard on a train traveling at 110mph built to European safety standards. So, maybe the FRA is right after all and the rest of the world is wrong. Third, is it possible this crash was much worse than it needed to be because of the Talgo design's reliance on single-axle articulated bogies, further compounded by adjustable axles designed to adjust on the fly to multiple gauges? The Talgo design basically amounts to a high-tech passenger version of a Roadrailer consist which in this case was operating in push mode. Essentially, like pushing a Roadrailer train backwards at 110mph through a sharp curve. Tragedy perhaps made more tragic because of questionable design and operating assumptions.

 

[cirdan]

That is some serious speeding if it's true. This could also be caused by high heat bending the tracks. Maybe the track was designed for fast speeds but heat restrictions reduced the limit.
Bloomberg reports that at least 77 people are now dead : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-24/spanish-train-derailment-kills-45-47-people-feijoo-says-on-rtve.html

This slew of railway accidents, both fatal and non-fatal, could reduce the train's reputation worldwide as a media shock.

A kink would have been visible and talked about,, even if not in any of the published pictures. Inclined to believe serious overspeed. What I find unnerving is how mangled the coaches are from what is apparently overturning without significant collisions with other trains or major structures.

Actually, many look worse than they really are.

The reason is that these cars have aerodynamic farings which are just bolted on plates of thin metal at the end of the car, and additionally on the roof of the end cars. They are not part of the integral coach structure. So with the exception of the severely damaged cars, the others look worse than they really are as mostly it is these fraings that have come away or been crumpled.

 

[jis]

This article has a short CCTV segment showing the derailment taking place.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/spain-train-crash-shocking-cctv-2087329

Actually at least two of the cars pretty much got demolished, at least from one end. Way more damage than a few bent farings.

It appears that the drawbars connecting the cars did not hold up too well at all. Too much of the train separated very early. But then going at 100+ through a 50mph curve and derailing at that speed is not your typical derailment either.

BTW, Amtrak did manage to run a fully loaded AEM-7+Amfleets through the Elizabeth curve at close to 100mph once luckily without derailing. After that the approach medium signal protecting the curve was put into effect, thus enforcing the 45mph that is currently in place.

The Talgo design basically amounts to a high-tech passenger version of a Roadrailer consist which in this case was operating in push mode. Essentially, like pushing a Roadrailer train backwards at 110mph through a sharp curve.

RENFE Class 730s which are RENFE Class 130s with their pure electric power heads replaced by dual mode power heads have no "push" mode. There is a power head at each end like in the Acelas. There is a HV bus along the roof that connects the two power heads, thus only one pantograph is up at any time in AC electrified areas. In non-electrified areas the power heads operate as a gensets using MTU diesels installed in the adjacent trailer car to get their power from. The Bo-Bo power heads are manufactured by Bombardier. Max speed on Standard Gauge is 160mph (25kV, 2.4Mw), on Broad Gauge is 140mph (3kV 2.0Mw), both under electric power, and 110mph in Diesel mode (1.8Mw).
BTW, using the length of the train of 600' you can tell from the video, assuming real time clocking that the train was traveling faster than 102mph when it entered the curve

 

[sitzplatz17]

This BBC video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23444848 gives us some more information. It was an Alvia not an AVE so Class 120 or 130. And for the first time we can also see where the other end of the train is.

Thank you, you're correct.

Latest is 77 dead, 130 injured. Truly tragic. They obviously aren't yet focused on a cause as rescue and recovery is much more important at this time, but a few things stand out to me. If speed was the cause and the train was traveling at twice the posted limit as some are already claiming, does that mean Spain had no PTC system on this line? Second, 77 dead out of only 222 aboard on a train traveling at 110mph built to European safety standards. So, maybe the FRA is right after all and the rest of the world is wrong. Third, is it possible this crash was much worse than it needed to be because of the Talgo design's reliance on single-axle articulated bogies, further compounded by adjustable axles designed to adjust on the fly to multiple gauges? The Talgo design basically amounts to a high-tech passenger version of a Roadrailer consist which in this case was operating in push mode. Essentially, like pushing a Roadrailer train backwards at 110mph through a sharp curve. Tragedy perhaps made more tragic because of questionable design and operating assumptions.

77 (now i believe 78) from 222 is an extremely high number. That's over 1/3 of all the passengers on board. I think there will have to be some intense questions asked about the crashworthiness of these train sets.

I'm sure the FRA is keeping a close eye on this as we do have Talgo sets here in the states as well.

 

[Paulus]

77 (now i believe 78) from 222 is an extremely high number. That's over 1/3 of all the passengers on board. I think there will have to be some intense questions asked about the crashworthiness of these train sets.

It went into a concrete wall at over 100mph; that's not something you can design against. You can really only beef up the signaling for it (upgrading to ERTMS instead of ASFS in that section for instance) in order to prevent that situation from occurring in the first place. It's worth considering that it's a similar percentage as the Eschede disaster, which was fairly similar (high speed derailment into concrete, though that one was accompanied by the bridge collapsing onto them).

 

[afigg]

of the stunning CCTV footage of the derailment. The images show what appear to be a walkway at the base of the concrete wall. So it was not just a flat concrete wall that the cars slammed into and were ground against. I suspect the edge of the concrete walkway acted as an cutting edge tearing open the coach cars. Sure looks like a derailment caused purely by excessive speed for the curve.
Terrible accident with a high percentage of fatalities for the number of passengers. One that looks to be all but certain to have long term consequences in automatic speed control and car structural integrity design; at least in Europe, if not elsewhere.

 

[the_traveler]

What I heard on the news today was that part of the reason is the federal budget. When they put on high(er) screed trains, the tracks were not realigned to allow higher speeds thru the curves. That still does not account for the fact the train attempted the curve at twice the speed limit.

European trains are not built the same as US trains. That is why the ICE and X-2000 had to receive exemptions from the FRA to operate in the US. Even today, the Spanish manufactured Talgos on the Cascades operate under an exemption. (The WI built Talgos are built to US standards, thus no exemption needed.)

 

[jis]

Terrible accident with a high percentage of fatalities for the number of passengers. One that looks to be all but certain to have long term consequences in automatic speed control and car structural integrity design; at least in Europe, if not elsewhere.

The thing that struck me is that this curve on which the accident happened, happens to be the first curve after the train leaves the ERTMS protected high speed line. I am surprised that the ERTMS does not enforce a speed reduction before the train leaves the high speed line (then again maybe it does, to the straight line speed limit for the non high speed line). As I recall, on the French LGV TVM430 system on the LGV forces a speed reduction before the train leaves the LGV to classic tracks. At the face of it, it seems like either something failed or something was poorly designed and implemented in the control systems at the edge of the high speed network.

Here is a somewhat well informed article on this matter. On the whole it is somewhat baffling how this happened apparently.

 

[Bob Dylan]

RIP and Quick healing to the Injured! I didnt read and watch all the various Reports so will ask: Was the Engineer(s) Killed?

I know nothing about safety and engineering standards for foreign equipment so will rely on our Member experts!

On first glance this seems obviously a case of Over Speeding for the Conditions but of course the Official Government Report will someday spell it out in detail! I wonder if the NW Talgos that received the Waivers will be under Closer Scrutiny from the Governments now? The few times I've ridden on them they were a nice Riide but did seem flimsier than Amfleets and Horizions??

 

[jis]

RIP and Quick healing to the Injured! I didnt read and watch all the various Reports so will ask: Was the Engineer(s) Killed? I know nothing about safety and engineering standards for foreign equipment so will rely on our Member experts!

Both Engineer(s) survived, and have already been interviewed by the accident investigators. They acknowledged that they were over speeding, and according to one report, one of them may be facing some criminal charges.

 

[Bob Dylan]

RIP and Quick healing to the Injured! I didnt read and watch all the various Reports so will ask: Was the Engineer(s) Killed? I know nothing about safety and engineering standards for foreign equipment so will rely on our Member experts!

Both Engineer(s) survived, and have already been interviewed by the accident investigators. They acknowledged that they were over speeding, and according to one report, one of them may be facing some criminal charges.

:hi: Thanks jis! At least they didnt run off after the Crash like that Moron Cruise Ship Captain in the Med and the Bus Drivers used to do in Mexico in the Bad Old Days!

 

[George Harris]

When looking at this thing, remember that it did not hit this wall square on. It hit a glancing blow as was sliding along it. That makes it difficult to understand the extent of the damage. One posibility is that the power unit plowed into the ballast making it slow much faster greatly increasing the impact of the following lightly built cars. Even with that the damage seems excessive and the death toll all but unbelievable. Another factor is ballasted track itself makes the plowing in of equipment possible which concrete slab does not. Look at the two Shinkansen design trains that derailed in earthquakes on concrete slab track. Both slid to a stop on the concrete, stayed more or less in line and everyone walked off with nothing more than bumps and bruises despite derailing at over 100 mph in both cases.

That is my main concern about the Northwest US Talgos. They are effectively a string of soda cans between a pair of bricks. If they ever hit something at any thing but low speed that is what I suspect the results will look like.

 

[SP&S]

Oh the humanity! And I do not say that lightly.

I'd still get on a Cascades without hesitation. Our most recent trip started on the LSL then the EB and finally on the Cascades so the comparison is fresh in my mind. The Talgo was a very nice train but it didn't have anywhere near as much there there as either a viewliner or a superliner.

Hopefully some serious safety questions (both preventability and survivability) will be raised and answered because of this.

 

[user 1215]

Latest is 77 dead, 130 injured. Truly tragic. They obviously aren't yet focused on a cause as rescue and recovery is much more important at this time, but a few things stand out to me. If speed was the cause and the train was traveling at twice the posted limit as some are already claiming, does that mean Spain had no PTC system on this line? Second, 77 dead out of only 222 aboard on a train traveling at 110mph built to European safety standards. So, maybe the FRA is right after all and the rest of the world is wrong. Third, is it possible this crash was much worse than it needed to be because of the Talgo design's reliance on single-axle articulated bogies, further compounded by adjustable axles designed to adjust on the fly to multiple gauges? The Talgo design basically amounts to a high-tech passenger version of a Roadrailer consist which in this case was operating in push mode. Essentially, like pushing a Roadrailer train backwards at 110mph through a sharp curve. Tragedy perhaps made more tragic because of questionable design and operating assumptions.

If the train was operating within the parameters of the legally set limit for the section, the probability of the crash would have been reduced to almost nothing and if it still crashed, it would have had much less damage.

You can't build something that is invincible. You build it to the parameters established by its operational limitations. Even if this train was going 200 KPH on track that it was allowed to do so, the likelyhood of a crash was limited, and if there was one, it wouldn't be catastrophic because it wouldn't involve the centrifugal failures.