Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

This is why I shouldn't post before I've had my morning coffee. I meant to say that the *Premier* was introduced in *2008*.

I've gone back and edited my last post for clarity.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

This is why I shouldn't post before I've had my morning coffee. I meant to say that the *Premier* was introduced in *2008*.

I've gone back and edited my last post for clarity.

I'm still confused about the seats and I haven't sorted that out yet. Maybe I should ask on GTE. But moreover, I would like to ask you again, why do you conduct so much research into Greyhound buses when you don't ride Greyhound that much? You would think that with the amount of research you do, you'd be Road Rewards 15 already and getting free tickets every year.

 

[rickycourtney]

It appears that Greyhound has 4 primary seat models... Patriot, Brasil, Premier and Premier LS.

But as you pointed out, those seat types don't necessarily correspond to the model and the model year of the bus.

86555 is simply Greyhound's fleet number. It doesn't necessarly mean that it rolled off the assembly line in that order. But what is clear was that right around the time that that bus was delivered... Greyhound was switching from the Premier to the Premier LS.

From experience I can tell you that the 2009 X3-45 has the older Premier seats, they were equipped with the footrest and they were horribly uncomfortable.

As to why I do so much research on Greyhound... I'm a transportation geek. I love trains, buses, planes and cars. I prefer trains a bit more than the other forms of transportation (call it a bit of romance from my childhood growing up near the train tracks.)

I am the proud owner of an older Toyota truck that I maintain myself (mostly!) but living in Seattle I made the decision to park it at my parents house in LA and now I take public transportation everywhere (including a bus twice a day!)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Seattle does a good transit bus system. Lots of those 60-footer artic buses. If I still lived there, I would use transit too, as I always did when I was there.

As for #86555, I have Greyhound VIN's and I know in which sequence those buses rolled out of the factory. I don't think they use a full-scale assembly line, instead more like the old-fashioned grouped work in the factories.

Here are some Greyhound D4505 VIN's:

MCI 86521 1M86DMBA2DP013049

MCI 86542 1M86DMBA9EP013082

MCI 86555 1M86DMBA7EP013095

As you can see, 86521 ansd 86542 both rolled out earlier, with lower serial numbers, yet they had the better seats. I'm learning about VIN's from GTE. "1M86" is the prefix for the D4505, "1M8P" for the 102DL3, and "3BMX" for the G4500. "B" in the 7th digit stands for Cummins ISX12. And "P" in the eleventh digit stands for a Pembina-built bus.

 

[rickycourtney]

Seattle does a good transit bus system. Lots of those 60-footer artic buses. If I still lived there, I would use transit too, as I always did when I was there.

I have enjoyed using the system. I like the artics as well, especially the New Flyer DE60LFR. Those fins on top give them a nice clean look, they're quiet and the seats are comfortable. I also really like the new Orion VII 40 footers (they're super quiet, and don't have that HVAC sound you hate.)

Metro's older buses use these horrible high back, fully upholstered seats. They look like they'd be comfortable, but you constantly slide around on them and the springs start to dig into your back and butt. They're American Seating KC548.

The newer buses all have 4ONE Aries seats... they look uncomfortable but they're actually not bad for a short ride.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Here's a Greyhound vid from the Calgary-Vancouver route, appears to be in Kicking Horse Canyon between Field and Golden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38sceRUHHw. Right along the Canadian Pacific.

 

[railiner]

Here's a Greyhound vid from the Calgary-Vancouver route, appears to be in Kicking Horse Canyon between Field and Golden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38sceRUHHw. Right along the Canadian Pacific.

Bravo, Swadian!!! Great video!

Even better, are some of the others linked on the YouTube....Watched that 'Highway 61' several times...and it had many other nostagic links....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8_no8n79Vo

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Here's a Greyhound vid from the Calgary-Vancouver route, appears to be in Kicking Horse Canyon between Field and Golden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38sceRUHHw. Right along the Canadian Pacific.

Bravo, Swadian!!! Great video!

Even better, are some of the others linked on the YouTube....Watched that 'Highway 61' several times...and it had many other nostagic links....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8_no8n79Vo

Woah, the old days of Greyhound rural service! Did you ever drive a Scenicruiser? Alabama too, that's one of the few states that still have rural service, in the form of Greyhound Connect. Speaking of rural service, do you think Greyhound's ever-expanding bus sizes are working against it? Like how Greyhound gradually went from 30-footers to 45-footers.

 

[railiner]

I did work for Greyhound from 1971 to 1973, but not as a driver. I did however get a few chances to operate Scenicruiser's for a brief period when I was in maintenance....

I think that the larger the bus, the better....more seats equal lower expense. It costs virtually the same to operate a forty-five footer as a thirty-five footer, at least in driver and fuel expense.....

As you probably know, my current employer operates many traditional rural local routes, in addition to our express routes. The local routes amazingly still carry pretty well, even though most of the population along it have cars, many living in The City, do not, and use our service to visit there. Also the residents of the rural area's, avoid driving to The City, due to the high traffic, high expense of parking, etc., when they come down to visit or to see shows, etc. And there is little competition, as most start-ups are only interested in going after high volume express routes....

 

[trainman74]

Guess this is the best thread to post this -- if you advance this video clip to 1:33, you'll see a 1964 Greyhound commercial contrasting airline and bus travel, followed by a local tag with a live announcer. (Unfortunately, there's a sync issue with the videotape, so the picture is wavy.)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I did work for Greyhound from 1971 to 1973, but not as a driver. I did however get a few chances to operate Scenicruiser's for a brief period when I was in maintenance....

I think that the larger the bus, the better....more seats equal lower expense. It costs virtually the same to operate a forty-five footer as a thirty-five footer, at least in driver and fuel expense.....

As you probably know, my current employer operates many traditional rural local routes, in addition to our express routes. The local routes amazingly still carry pretty well, even though most of the population along it have cars, many living in The City, do not, and use our service to visit there. Also the residents of the rural area's, avoid driving to The City, due to the high traffic, high expense of parking, etc., when they come down to visit or to see shows, etc. And there is little competition, as most start-ups are only interested in going after high volume express routes....

Doesn't a shoter bus use less fuel than a long bus though? I mean, would a 102D3 get more MPG than a 102DL3, because of the smaller size? I discovered, with help from GTE, that most Greyhound DL3's have 370 hp Detriot 60-R's, while the D3's were fine with 310 hp Detriot 60-T's. Greyhound Canada DL3's have 425 hp Detroit 60-P's to pull those trailers faster.

I guess the epitome of road efficiency is supposed to be this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/canadagood/3654373126/sizes/l/in/photolist-6yVBPd-6Dqsui-6TWczm-6TWcVN-73hwWz-74VobJ-admqPb-89GZ8t-j3GfEE-bF51cc-febT11-fdWAfk-iwjZjn-iwk8u9-8BmvuC-iFyfz2-8ffiju-a2XBYu-iFyibV-iwJ3bY-hMDTMi-iTnV4r-iTrLoo-iTnW92-eiuHQH-eiAt5U-eiuHNv-jYgRaM-8NpZiS-j3E7At-ahC5bn-ahERaG-ahERcU-ahERnu-ahERqd-ahC5oT-ahC5mi-arFYTi-84sGXd-hMCLqP-hMDBqm-hMDf9A-ahERxh-ahERff-ahC5yB-8zGEy8-9R9JXk-8pZBdx-iFAqxo-cYKfg7-hJNAPG/. Offers 50 passenger seats and 1050 sq.feet cargo space.

But that huge vechicle measures 61.5 feet long and probably guzzles fuel while not getting nearly 50 pax, so maybe a "cargo combo" would be better instead of the trailer, like a 102D3 with a T engine carrying half pax half cargo. That would be better for Whitehorse and may have been able to save the Yellowknife route. The Yellowknife route seemed fine when it used MC-9 Combos, then got cut after it started using Big D's with trailers.

What does ADI use on rural routes, and is cargo a big factor?

Guess this is the best thread to post this -- if you advance this video clip to 1:33, you'll see a 1964 Greyhound commercial contrasting airline and bus travel, followed by a local tag with a live announcer. (Unfortunately, there's a sync issue with the videotape, so the picture is wavy.)

Nice ad, too bad for the poor quality. Surely does apply for routes like Reno to Salt Lake City, where bus travel is not impeded by congestion, and offers much better times than Amtrak, day travel, no overnight required. Most people get really bored after driving across the Great Basin. Not to mention that it always gets deluxe buses and experienced drivers. When I rode #52672 on that route and caught the high-view seat, that makes one of the best bus rides ever.

 

[railiner]

The longer and slightly heavier 45 footer perhaps uses a trace more fuel than a 40 footer, primarily due to the additional weight. But not nearly in proportion to the extra seats and revenue afforded by the longer bus.

As for TNY, in general, we use any bus on any route, with a few exceptions....we use our three state-funded D4505's on Albany-Long Island trips, to keep them as mandated only operating in the State of New York (our other routes may cross thru NJ or Pa, and we don't send them to either Quebec or Ontario). We use our Pine Hill Van Hools on our long local routes to Oneonta and beyond, We use our one ADT Van Hool on our last local daily trip to Albany as the run is not 'protected', and its 57 seats can come in handy...

We use our newest H3-45's on our thru trips to Canada. We use our older H3-45's, our J4500's, and our XL-II's on our commuter and other local trips....

We don't carry much GPX anymore,,,,our only need for large cargo space (for baggage), is when colleges start and end their semester's.......or during holiday's and special events like the Caribana carnival in Toronto and the similar one in Brooklyn....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Seems like Pine Hill is using the Van Hool C2045 correctly, they have a smaller turning circle so they're probably good for rural routes. I remember Byron did an old trip report on GTE, he said he rode a TNM&O C2045 from Dallas to Denver, and it was beat-up and terribly rough, presumably because they're not designed for long-haul highway routes. Would you agree?

I heard from Tom Langford that Kerriville's T2145's were "near dead" by 2 years old.

As for rural routes, do you think the Canadian remote routes are better with trailers or combos?

 

[railiner]

Pine Hill is only currently buying Van Hool's. Adirondack and New York Trailways are buying Prevost H3-45's. That is the owner's preference, but I am not privvy to his reasoning on that matter. Pine Hill has 2006, 2009, 2012, and 2013 model C2045's. The 2014's will be the new CX45. No plans to get the TX45, which is more like the Prevost H3-45. The CX is more like the Prevost X3-45...

So far the Van Hools in the fleet are holding up as well as any of our Prevost's or MCI's...and of course, they are cheaper to purchase...

As a driver, I would much prefer driving a combo, than a trailer....much easier and safer to handle, although the trailer might be easier to load/unload from....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Do you know why Greyhound Canada switched from combos to trailers and why Greyhound US got rid of all the combos? Seems dumb to use trailers behind a bus like the 102DL3, with their huge turning circles, I mean, the DL3 has a 47-foot circle with the steerable tag axle, but Greyhound locks them so I'm expecting something like 53 feet, then add on the trailer.

Is ADI and company willing to expand out of New York? They could reinstate the US Route 7 service from New York up to Burlington/Montreal, that rural service has potential and fits in with ADI's doctrine. Might be best for ADI instead of NYT or Pine Hiil, but is there really any difference other than name? Is one of them better than the others?

 

[railiner]

At one time, Adirondack did have a run from Albany to Rutland, via Whitehall, similar to the Amtrak Ethan Alan route, while the old Vermont Transit went thru Troy and Bennington.

At the present time, there are no plans that I am aware of to expand into Vermont. It seems that Megabus and some county services have filled some of the vacuum created when Vermont Transit seized operations a few years ago.

As far as ADT, PHK, and NYT are concerned, they are all separate companies. The founders grandchildren, a brother and sister, jointly own ADT and PHK. The grandson alone, started NYT, partly from some assets of the defunct Empire Trailways. The driver's all have separate union contracts....ADT and PHK are represented by the United Transportation Union, NYT are represented by the Teamster's. The ADT buses are primarily maintained in the Albany garage, the PHK and NYT buses in the Kingston garage. NYT doesn't have its own garage. Central Dispatch manages ADT and PHK at the Hurley, NY headquarters, while NYT is managed from the Rochester location. The owner and top executives are in Hurley.

ADT and NYT are in the "pool" arrangement with Greyhound, while PHK is not. There's a lot more to the histories, but this should tell you the basics....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Thanks, I get it. Greyhound drivers are from the Amalgamated Transit Union, right? Didn't know there were so many other unions, I thought Trailways and Greyhound drivers were both from the ATU. It seems like ADI/NYT/PHK are one of the few old Trailways companies that didn't go to Continental Trailways.

Do you know whether it's good to leave the "MODE" button on the transmission while running on the Interstate? Heard something about that on GTE, someone said his DL3 was crawling up a hill and another one said it's actually the best bus for climbing hills. Does this have to do with the engine? I mean, is a big P engine really worth it?

I actually looked up some examples of D4500's with A engines, 280hp Cummins ISL 9, surely that's underpowered? That's what they have on the hybrids, too.

 

[railiner]

Many of the old Continental Trailways divisions were Amalgamated Transit Union. Others were United Transportation Union. The original ATU began mainly from streetcar's, while the UTU began as the Brotherhood of Railway Trainmen, representing steam railways..

While Continental Trailways did own the majority of National Trailways Bus System companies at its end, before Greyhound bought them out, there were still several other independent Trailways carrier's left. Among them were ADT and PHK, Empire Trailways, Capitol Trailways of Pennsylvania, Captal Trailways of Alabama and its affiliiate Colonial Trailways, Martz Trailways, Carolina Trailways (also later bought by Greyhound), Southeastern Trailways and its affiliate Deluxe Trailways, Pacific Trailways, and a few other smaller carrier's. Since the purchase of Continental by Greyhound, and the later start of 'revenue pool' with some of the independent Trailways companies, many companies briefly joined the National Trailways Bus System (including Greyhound!), Peter Pan, but then left, seeing no real benefit of continued membership.

As a result, the Trailways association re-invented itself to survive, becoming more of a trade association, aggressively recruiting very small independent bus owner's, many of whom only ran charters, with no line runs, to join the 'system'. The new mission was no longer to 'compete' with Greyhound, but rather exploit the well known Trailways name to compete with other companies in the charter and tour business. A small company with two or three buses could paint the Trailways logo and name on their buses, and in ads in the yellow pages. People looking to charter a bus would see the ad. and think "Oh, I heard of Trailways...that's a good company",,,,,

As for the mode button....the only time I would use that to manually shift the transmission would be if there was some malfunction in leaving it shift automatically. For example, while climbing a hill, if the transmission did not downshift when needed....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Pacific Trailways? Did they have a big network around here in the West? I heard many Greyhound drivers used to be represented by the Brotherhood of Railway Trainmen, but now I only hear or the ATU.

I really don't see the point of so many charter companies competing against each other, these companies probably don't get a lot of business at all. Around here, we have Amador and All-West as big charter companies, but Amador is seen more often and usually on the shuttle runs, not on charters. The other charter buses, you pretty much can't see them at all. What's the point of buying these big buses then not starting a bus line?

Regarding the bus size, do you mean fuel consumption really has to do with weight and not with the length or height of the bus? Is there any big difference between the companies, I mean, is a D4505 more efficient or a X3-45? What about the best-selling J4500, which seems to be overweight for a fiberglass bus?

I thought it was weird on #6909 when Juan crawled up the hills at less than 40 mph, previously even DL3 I'd ridden had cosistantly held 75 mph on the highway, then Juan said he hadn't driven one in about a year. I thought it was the transmission, but do you know why?

 

[railiner]

The story of Pacific Trailways (Mount Hood Stages), is a very sore chapter in Greyhound's history....here is a link to one point of view on the subject http://www.angelfire.com/80s/joycewiggins/Jon-10.html

PT ran basically from Portland via Bend to Boise, and Salt Lake City, with a few branch lines in Oregon, and pooled with Continental Trailways with runs from Dallas, Denver, Grand Junction, and Salt Lake, to Portland and Seattle...

This is not to be confused with Continental Pacific Lines, which ran from San Francisco and Sacramento up US 99 to Portland and Seattle....they pooled with Continental Western Lines (former Santa Fe Trailways) at Sacramento for points south, and with Pacific Trailways at Portland for points southeast....

Yes, fuel consumption is primarily affected by the weight of the bus, althought the height will also affect aerodynamic drag. I'm not an expert, but I don't think length really matters in that regard. Fuel consumption can vary by many factors, including the way the bus is driven, the weather, the state of maintenance,....lots of factors can make two seemingly identical buses deliver different mileage performance.

As far as climbing hills, the state of maintenance again can be a factor....sometimes buses will lose power climbing hills if the 'fuel pro' fuel filter is too full.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Ah, so Pacific Trailways ran along US Route 20. Always thought maybe Greyhound would like to run a sked via US Route 20 or 26 between Bend and Portland. It actually has independant scheduled service from various shuttle lines. Too bad they don't ally with Greyhound.

So I guess given equal state of maintainence and driver competance, the most efficient MCI and Prevost buses would be something like:

X3-45

D4505

102DL3 & D4500

G4500

J4500

E4500

H3-45

102D3 & D4000

H3-40 & H3-41

I don't even know why the D4000, D4005, and H3-41 are even offered given they're pretty much pointless.

I also found this excellent photo of a 102DL3 (#6052): http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_6052-2.jpg. Attractive photos like this would great for Greyhound PR. But I see another DL3, #6259, parked behind it. That bus appears to be idling, with lights and destination sign on. But 6052 is not running. What the heck is 6259 doing nosed behind 6052 wasting diesel?

To make things worse, I found this shot of 6259 from the same photoshoot: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_6259-2.jpg. It's running, but it's stuck in between two other DL3's, 6052 in front and another (6341?) behind! Both other buses are not running. Why does Greyhound have a huge bus idling between two other huge buses that are not running?

 

[rickycourtney]

John-

Have you seen the website for the Altoona Bus Research and Testing? They have nearly every conceivable data point on all types of buses (including fuel consumption.) I think you'll find it very interesting.

http://www.altoonabustest.com

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

John-

Have you seen the website for the Altoona Bus Research and Testing? They have nearly every conceivable data point on all types of buses (including fuel consumption.) I think you'll find it very interesting.

http://www.altoonabustest.com

Thanks!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Looking at the test results, it's weird they would look at a 12-year, 500,000 miles test, when Greyhound plans to use the 102DL3 for 25 years, and 3,300,000 miles, though that is including a rebuild.

All of them use Allison B500 or B500R electric transmissions.

Here are some test results:

MCI 102D3 (aka D4000) w/ Detroit 60-P & Allison B500R: 7.62 mpg highway

MCI D4000N (aka 96D3) w/Detroit 60-P & Allison B500: 7.49 mpg highway

New Flyer D45S w/ Detroit 60-? & Allison B500R: 7.37 mpg highway

Prevost X3-45 w/ Volvo D13H435P & Allison B500: 6.85 mpg highway

MCI D4500 (aka 102DL3) w/ Detroit 60-R & Allison B500: 6.79 mpg highway

MCI D4500CT w/ Caterpillar C13 ACERT & Allison B500: 6.67 mph highway

MCI D4505 w/ Cummins ISX11.9 & Allison B500: 5.92mpg highway

MCI E4500 w/ Detroit 60-P & Allison B500: 5.63 mph highway

When comparing intercity buses, it's virtually pointless to look at the urban and arterial figures, only the commuter figures matter because those are highway figures.

No Van Hool, Dina, or Setra buses have been submitted for testing.

 

[railiner]

John-

Have you seen the website for the Altoona Bus Research and Testing? They have nearly every conceivable data point on all types of buses (including fuel consumption.) I think you'll find it very interesting.

http://www.altoonabustest.com

Thanks from me, too. I had forgotten of that test facilities existance...sort of a bus equivalent to the railroad's test center near Pueblo, Co.

Lot's of fascinating details to peruse.

Thanks again for the link.