Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

I *think* Altoona testing is voluntary on the part of the manufacturer... but the Federal Transit Administration requires it to be done if federal grants paid for the buses. So that means that most of the tests are done on transit buses and motor coaches that can be used by transit agencies in commuter service.

To that end, most of the tests are set up to test what transit agencies and the FTA wants to know. They give the buses a "simulated" 12-year, 500,000 miles test... which basically means they beat them to hell and back for a few months.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I *think* Altoona testing is voluntary on the part of the manufacturer... but the Federal Transit Administration requires it to be done if federal grants paid for the buses. So that means that most of the tests are done on transit buses and motor coaches that can be used by transit agencies in commuter service.

To that end, most of the tests are set up to test what transit agencies and the FTA wants to know. They give the buses a "simulated" 12-year, 500,000 miles test... which basically means they beat them to hell and back for a few months.

That makes sense, then. Most transit buses run much less miles before retirement compared to an intercity bus. Apparently transit buses take wear and tear from freuqent braking.

Look at those sample MPG results I posted, the D4505 is much less efficient than both the 102DL3 and X3-45. No wonder Greyhound orders loads of X3-45's and not many D4505's. Also, the little 102D3 is actually quite efficient, would be a great option for rural routes. I never thought the New Flyer D45S would be so good on MPG either. The E4500 is horrible on efficiency.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Isn't NFI related to Ikarus?

 

[railiner]

Isn't NFI related to Ikarus?

Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries

NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history

edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries

NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history

edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....

New Flyer's now the obviously dominant transit manufacturer, but their D45S failed to sell well for some reason, despite high MPG.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries

NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history

edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....

New Flyer's now the obviously dominant transit manufacturer, but their D45S failed to sell well for some reason, despite high MPG.

New Flyer was trying to do what Neoplan was doing, which didn't work out for them. Neoplan did something right, which allowed them to produce several motorcoaches, including some double deckers that were exported.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries

NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history

edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....

New Flyer's now the obviously dominant transit manufacturer, but their D45S failed to sell well for some reason, despite high MPG.

New Flyer was trying to do what Neoplan was doing, which didn't work out for them. Neoplan did something right, which allowed them to produce several motorcoaches, including some double deckers that were exported.

Neoplan? But didn't Neoplan USA go down anyway? Their AN340/345 were busts as well, and looked a lot like the D45S.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You are far too self-referencing when deciding good and bad.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries

NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history

edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....

New Flyer's now the obviously dominant transit manufacturer, but their D45S failed to sell well for some reason, despite high MPG.

New Flyer was trying to do what Neoplan was doing, which didn't work out for them. Neoplan did something right, which allowed them to produce several motorcoaches, including some double deckers that were exported.

Neoplan? But didn't Neoplan USA go down anyway? Their AN340/345 were busts as well, and looked a lot like the D45S.

I'm talking about before 2006. Neoplan USA produced several AN340/345s for private companies in Florida. I wouldn't consider them a bust, they did pretty well for a manufacturer who also built transit buses. They also built double decker buses for SCRTD. Those double deckers were exported. They exported several coaches before building buses at the Lamar plant.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I'm talking about before 2006. Neoplan USA produced several AN340/345s for private companies in Florida. I wouldn't consider them a bust, they did pretty well for a manufacturer who also built transit buses.

Customers included: Mears, SCRTD, Denver RTD, RTA, Grayline Tours, PAT, Kennedy Space Center, and many other operators. They exported several coaches before building buses at the Lamar plant.

 

[rickycourtney]

The Neoplan AN440 was fairly ubiquitous in Los Angeles for many years. At one point LA Metro operated close to 1200 units.

But that's typical of the Metro Bus system in LA. They like to buy one type of bus for as long as possible. The agency has bought NABI buses almost exclusively since 2000 (including 643 composite 45 foot buses that were custom designed for Metro). With the New Flyer buyout the agency seems to be transitioning to Xcelsiors.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I know, the AN440 was very common in Philadelphia too, where I'm from. But that's a transit bus. As far as Neoplan intercity buses go, they pretty much failed in the US, just like New Flyer. Sure, Denver RTD and PAT use them, but compare that to the users of the X3-45, C2045, T2145, etc, which are not bestsellers either, and they don't even come close to the MCI D, J, or the Prevost H, which have always been near the top of the list.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

BTW, CJ, you're from Florida? What Greyhound's do they have in Florida? As you may know, Reno has tons of D4505's.

 

[railiner]

Neoplan in the US had an interesting history. The first ones I saw, were some early model imported, double deck Skyliner sightsee'ers in Milwaukee in the late '60's.

When I lived in Colorado, in the '80's they gave the RTD a double deck, four axle, Megaliner to test on the Denver-Boulder run. Also saw those used by the SCRTD on their El Monte busway, and by TWA Services, on their Kennedy Space Center tours.

I remember well all the hoopla when Neoplan opened their new plant in Lamar, and the Denver RTD awarding them a huge contract to replace their AM General's and their MCI's.

Then in the '90's several New York area commuter and charter companies bought their futuristic looking coaches. Their model that impressed me most was the 'dual mode' articulated's they built for the MBTA Silver Line.

They now have faded away, and their current owner, MAN, doesn't seem interested in marketing in the USA any longer....

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I know, the AN440 was very common in Philadelphia too, where I'm from. But that's a transit bus. As far as Neoplan intercity buses go, they pretty much failed in the US, just like New Flyer. Sure, Denver RTD and PAT use them, but compare that to the users of the X3-45, C2045, T2145, etc, which are not bestsellers either, and they don't even come close to the MCI D, J, or the Prevost H, which have always been near the top of the list.

Those three are considered luxury coaches, though they can be used for transit. Same with Neoplan's motorcoaches. While not as successful as MCI or Prevost, Neoplan did a better job then New Flyer could, that's for sure.

We have C2045s running for an express route in Florida, though the buses are from Mears. They run on Lynx's Xpress 208. Currently, it's free until May 16th. The bus I was on is 4209, which uses what appears to be a Cummins ISX engine.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

BTW, CJ, you're from Florida? What Greyhound's do they have in Florida? As you may know, Reno has tons of D4505's.

I don't really see a lot of Greyhound, though I do see various motorcoaches. The last Greyhound buses I saw were 102-DL3s, which was last year on I-4. They appeared to have been rehabbed.

The other motorcoaches I see from the tour companies include, 102-DL3s, X3-45, D4505s, J4500s, 96/102A3s, MC-9s, T-2145s, C2045s, T800/900s. I got a report that some Neoplan AN116/3 (cityliners) are running around as well as Ex-NJT Eagles.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

As for Neoplans, I rode on many Neoplans for Lynx. We had mostly AN435s, but we did have some AN440s and AN460s around (one of the 40 footers was originally suppose to go to SEPTA, originally going to be 8601). Those were built around 1984-1985, along with the first AN435s. The last Neoplans we bought were also AN435s in 1990-1991. Sorry if this went off topic.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

BTW, CJ, you're from Florida? What Greyhound's do they have in Florida? As you may know, Reno has tons of D4505's.

I don't really see a lot of Greyhound, though I do see various motorcoaches. The last Greyhound buses I saw were 102-DL3s, which was last year on I-4. They appeared to have been rehabbed.

The other motorcoaches I see from the tour companies include, 102-DL3s, X3-45, D4505s, J4500s, 96/102A3s, MC-9s, T-2145s, C2045s, T800/900s. I got a report that some Neoplan AN116/3 (cityliners) are running around as well as Ex-NJT Eagles.

Do you see any Red Coach H3-45? I'm surprised there's still MC-9's and 102A3's down there. Here in Reno I see tons of Greyhound D4505's, there's also Megabus-All West TD925's, All West C2045's, CX45's, H3-40's, H3-45's, and D4505's. There's Amador 102D3's, 102DL3's, J4500's, and H3-45's. And there's various other 102D3's and H3-45's, a casino around here (I think Sands) keep driving around with a 102D3 and a H3-45 paired together.

I know, the AN440 was very common in Philadelphia too, where I'm from. But that's a transit bus. As far as Neoplan intercity buses go, they pretty much failed in the US, just like New Flyer. Sure, Denver RTD and PAT use them, but compare that to the users of the X3-45, C2045, T2145, etc, which are not bestsellers either, and they don't even come close to the MCI D, J, or the Prevost H, which have always been near the top of the list.

Those three are considered luxury coaches, though they can be used for transit. Same with Neoplan's motorcoaches. While not as successful as MCI or Prevost, Neoplan did a better job then New Flyer could, that's for sure.

We have C2045s running for an express route in Florida, though the buses are from Mears. They run on Lynx's Xpress 208. Currently, it's free until May 16th. The bus I was on is 4209, which uses what appears to be a Cummins ISX engine.

(video)

Ugh, Cummins ISX, according to Altoona tests, they guzzle fuel compared to Detroit 60-T/P/R engines. The D4505 was tested and ended up using more fuel than the 102DL3, for god's sake! That's 12 years for a downgrade.

 

[rickycourtney]

So I ask you to hear me out and think my comments over before you flame away...

The more I think about it... the more I'm disturbed by what happened on that bus in Northern California that was hit by a FedEx truck.

No matter what your personal opinion of Setra is... the fact is that this was a brand new motorcoach just weeks off the assembly line. It conformed to all current safety standards.
It was being operated by Silverado Stages, a well respected operator with very good safety record.

The crash was so violent... that unfortunately fatalities were unavoidable.

But the truth is that the students onboard the bus said they:
A) Could not the door at the rear of the bus (the wheelchair loading door)
B) Had to punch out the glass to escape

At least one student died trying to help his classmates escape.

According to NTSB it appears that the wheelchair loading door was not designed to open from the inside (it's not legally required to) and that while every window was equipped with an emergency release, passengers may not have used them. Both in my opinion are tragic conclusions.

I'm shocked to hear that while wheelchair lift equipped buses are quickly becoming the norm in this country... these doors can't be used as an emergency exit. It doesn't seem like it would be terribly challenging to come up with an emergency release handle that was tamper proof.

As a matter of fact, it's already been done. All school buses are required to have an emergency exit door and all newer versions are fitted with alarms that sound if they've been tampered with.

It would be nice if all existing wheelchair lift equipped motorcoaches were modified to have an emergency release handle... but I'd settle for making it a requirement for new motorcoaches.

As to the emergency escape window situation... it strikes me that I've only once been told how to properly told how to operate one. It was on a charter bus trip and I learned it watching a short welcome/safety video the driver played on the overhead monitors.

But the truth is that as most drivers depart a station they make an announcement... there is no reason why they shouldn't be required to include a safety component where they describe the proper operation of the emergency escapes windows and hatches.

Will everyone listen? No.

Will it be popular among drivers? No.

But if there's an accident... and just one person remembers what was said... it could help a lot of people quickly escape.

I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts...

 

[Caesar La Rock]

BTW, CJ, you're from Florida? What Greyhound's do they have in Florida? As you may know, Reno has tons of D4505's.

I don't really see a lot of Greyhound, though I do see various motorcoaches. The last Greyhound buses I saw were 102-DL3s, which was last year on I-4. They appeared to have been rehabbed.

The other motorcoaches I see from the tour companies include, 102-DL3s, X3-45, D4505s, J4500s, 96/102A3s, MC-9s, T-2145s, C2045s, T800/900s. I got a report that some Neoplan AN116/3 (cityliners) are running around as well as Ex-NJT Eagles.

Do you see any Red Coach H3-45? I'm surprised there's still MC-9's and 102A3's down there. Here in Reno I see tons of Greyhound D4505's, there's also Megabus-All West TD925's, All West C2045's, CX45's, H3-40's, H3-45's, and D4505's. There's Amador 102D3's, 102DL3's, J4500's, and H3-45's. And there's various other 102D3's and H3-45's, a casino around here (I think Sands) keep driving around with a 102D3 and a H3-45 paired together.

I know, the AN440 was very common in Philadelphia too, where I'm from. But that's a transit bus. As far as Neoplan intercity buses go, they pretty much failed in the US, just like New Flyer. Sure, Denver RTD and PAT use them, but compare that to the users of the X3-45, C2045, T2145, etc, which are not bestsellers either, and they don't even come close to the MCI D, J, or the Prevost H, which have always been near the top of the list.

Those three are considered luxury coaches, though they can be used for transit. Same with Neoplan's motorcoaches. While not as successful as MCI or Prevost, Neoplan did a better job then New Flyer could, that's for sure.

We have C2045s running for an express route in Florida, though the buses are from Mears. They run on Lynx's Xpress 208. Currently, it's free until May 16th. The bus I was on is 4209, which uses what appears to be a Cummins ISX engine.

(video)

Ugh, Cummins ISX, according to Altoona tests, they guzzle fuel compared to Detroit 60-T/P/R engines. The D4505 was tested and ended up using more fuel than the 102DL3, for god's sake! That's 12 years for a downgrade.

MC-9s and 102A3s are like legends and built to last. Heck, Quality Coach still has MC-8s, MC-9s, 96A3s down here with 8V71Ns. They retrofitted them with wheelchair lifts. A 1978 MC-5C was recently sighted down here too. It's owned by a church. Red Coach does have those H3-45s and they are nice. I also see MegaBus' TD925s here too, at Lynx Central Station, where passengers can get on MegaBus.

You don't know what you will run into down here, since companies keep sticking with old buses. Some private companies around here still have GMC RTS buses. Some Orion Is and Orion VIs were spotted here and many Ex-Lynx buses, including Orion Vs are still running for these companies.

Metro Transportation just bought several Fairfax RTS buses that are now running around. Metro Transportation also has Ex-Lynx buses too and Flxibles from Palm Tran. The only companies I'm aware of that have newer buses is Disney Transport, Shades of Green, and Mears to name a few. Everyone else seems to love old buses.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I agree that the wheelchair lift door should be openable in an accident. They could install a latch at the operaing end from the inside. This might not be hard with the siwinging doors, but it might prove to be a problem with the sliding doors on the newer buses. Another, simpler, way to solve the problem would be to just replace the windows on the lift doors, replace them with the same type of window as the regular passenger windows, so that the windows can be opened easily.

As for the windows, there's two main types in use. There's the old style with a big slanted bar at the bottom, you pull it up and throw it out, very easy to open. They have instructions etched into the slanted bar. This is what you see on the A3, DL3, and D4505, don't know which other buses have them.

The newer type just has a red handle on the side, so you have to reach up and it's presumably harder to open due to less leverage, but allows a slimmer windowline for the bus. These have intructions posted by the red handle on a piece of paper glued onto the window. If that paper falls off, you're screwed and tampering is easier with this type. Presumably the Setra had these, I know the G4500 does.

Like CJ said, the MC-8, MC-9, 102A3, and 102DL3 were great buses. Now the designs have all gotten screwed over and bus safety has dropped. Heck, even fuel efficiency peaked with the 102DL3, then dropped, except for the X3-45 which is the only bus in production that can rival good old DL3 effiicency.

So what I mean is that people need to go back to basics instead of messing around and causing more problems.

 

[railiner]

So I ask you to hear me out and think my comments over before you flame away...

The more I think about it... the more I'm disturbed by what happened on that bus in Northern California that was hit by a FedEx truck.

No matter what your personal opinion of Setra is... the fact is that this was a brand new motorcoach just weeks off the assembly line. It conformed to all current safety standards.

It was being operated by Silverado Stages, a well respected operator with very good safety record.

The crash was so violent... that unfortunately fatalities were unavoidable.

But the truth is that the students onboard the bus said they:

A) Could not the door at the rear of the bus (the wheelchair loading door)

B) Had to punch out the glass to escape

At least one student died trying to help his classmates escape.

According to NTSB it appears that the wheelchair loading door was not designed to open from the inside (it's not legally required to) and that while every window was equipped with an emergency release, passengers may not have used them. Both in my opinion are tragic conclusions.

I'm shocked to hear that while wheelchair lift equipped buses are quickly becoming the norm in this country... these doors can't be used as an emergency exit. It doesn't seem like it would be terribly challenging to come up with an emergency release handle that was tamper proof.

As a matter of fact, it's already been done. All school buses are required to have an emergency exit door and all newer versions are fitted with alarms that sound if they've been tampered with.

It would be nice if all existing wheelchair lift equipped motorcoaches were modified to have an emergency release handle... but I'd settle for making it a requirement for new motorcoaches.

As to the emergency escape window situation... it strikes me that I've only once been told how to properly told how to operate one. It was on a charter bus trip and I learned it watching a short welcome/safety video the driver played on the overhead monitors.

But the truth is that as most drivers depart a station they make an announcement... there is no reason why they shouldn't be required to include a safety component where they describe the proper operation of the emergency escapes windows and hatches.

Will everyone listen? No.

Will it be popular among drivers? No.

But if there's an accident... and just one person remembers what was said... it could help a lot of people quickly escape.

I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts...

You have made some valid observations. They could indeed design the wheelchair door to also operate as an emergency door. In fact, they already are fitted with sensors that will send a visible and audible alarm to the driver, if they are not fully secured. As a matter of fact, the parking brake won't even release in that case. I don't know why they are not designed to be used as an emergency escape, but have an inkling that perhaps, and I may be totally wrong, but that they manufacturer's are worried about possible legal action in the event some child or schizophrenic person tries to open them on the move, and falls out.

As you may know, all buses used to have emergency doors years ago, but when the large pushout escape windows became prevalent, the federal regulator's deemed them sufficient, and removed the requirement for emergency doors. The State of New Jersey still required them for a few years longer, and all NJ registered buses had them...even the GMC PD-4106's registered in that state alone. Later, NJ relented, and dropped the requirement. Since that time, rear escape windows in some cases, and one or two roof hatches have added to emergency escape opportunities.

As for driver announcements, for the last couple of years, my company's driver's have been instructed to mention the various means of emergency escape in their announcements, mentioning how to open the front door, the window and the roof hatches, also the location of fire extinguisher's, etc.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Hey, I found the Setra interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/6292964228/. That's the bus involved in the crash, and as you can see, it has the stupid red handle with the instructions sticker instead of the slanted bar. I also found out that both the Prevost X3-45 and H3-41/45 have a curved window bar, not a red handle.

Setra, Van Hool, Alexander Dennies, and Dina vehicles have the red handle, while MCI and Prevost vehicles have the slanted or curved bars.

Here you can fine more bus interiors: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/sets/72157628011613156/with/6292964228/

http://www.barraclou.com/bus/interior/

If you will excuse me for a second, but since it's obvious that the bar is better than the handle for leverage and prevention of tampering, then Up with MCI, Up with Prevost, Down with Setra, Down with Van Hool, Down with Alexander Dennis, and Down with Dina! Safety first!

 

[rickycourtney]

It appears that the Setra S 407 has the type with the red handle on one side of the window, midway up.

I've seen both that type and the type that is a bar that swings up from the bottom of the window.

Sorry to correct you John but I think that Van Hool has also (at some point) used the bar type as well. I will say that the bar type seems to be more prone to tampering (I've sat on a bus where the window "whistled" because the emergency latch wasn't fully seated.)

I really don't know if one type is necessarily better than the other and I really don't see the point of getting into a pissing match about who makes the better bus (especially in a topic involving fatalities.) Both types of emergency exit windows must have been cleared by the US regulators as being sufficient.

Bottom line... no matter which system is in use the passengers need to know how to use it.


railiner- I'm glad to hear your company requires that your drivers make the safety spiel... on the whole your company seems to be doing things the right way. But taking an industrywide view, it's totally inconsistent. I've been on buses where the driver mentions the safety features, but more often than not, they say nothing about them. The only way for it to become consistent is to make the safety spiel a legal requirement.

 

[railiner]

Hey, Swadian! I loved those shots of that ol' Flxiliner in the montage......

I used to ride them on the old Continental Air Transport between O'Hare and The Loop in the late '60's......