Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

I honestly think it has less to do with the embarrassment from things like a burned out coach (the news media will be able to get pictures like that no matter what) and more about preventing people from getting videos or pictures of employees or passengers doing something embarrassing.

I've read a few stories online of passengers getting kicked off by a driver after a disagreement.

I remember a recent case involving group of "occupy" protesters who the bus driver didn't agree with (they claim due to differing opinions on politics). The driver pulled over and told the passengers to get off, the passengers demanded an explanation of why they were being kicked off, the driver refused and called the cops, the cops agreed with the passengers, but asked them to disembark and the cops arranged to get them to a safe place.

Poor customer service, rude employees and unruly passengers are the kind of thing that got Greyhound the bad name they're still trying to run from. I think that's what they want to avoid... people capturing that stuff on video. It just takes one egregious incident to wipe out all of this positive press they have received.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

That's what I'm talking about. Everyone makes fun of Greyhound, Greyhound doesn't make fun of anyone. Mouth Greyhound support on any non-Greyhound forum and you have hate coming your way. Mouth the opposite on GTE and we still remain civil. Everyone claims to be better than Greyhound even though Greyhound is humble while others are arrogant. Greyhound has just been bullied too much and now they're even afraid of bus fans taking photos of their buses.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

In the case of Donald Ainsworth kicking the Occupiers off his DL3 in Amarillo, let us not forget that the Freedom Riders were bombed in Anniston. Greyhound is fearful of any political activism on their buses. Remember, Donald Ainsworth never said he hated Occupiers, but the Occupiers were a large, enthusiastic group of political activists. Politics on Greyhound buses = trouble on Greyhound buses.

Edit: Imagine you were a Greyhound driver, and you saw this on your bus: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6764516165_c9cc1da157_z.jpg.

And this in the station: http://obrag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Occupy-SD-bus-Day2.jpg.

If I were a Greyhound driver, I wouldn't care what their cause was, I would take extreme caution.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That's what I'm talking about. Everyone makes fun of Greyhound, Greyhound doesn't make fun of anyone. Mouth Greyhound support on any non-Greyhound forum and you have hate coming your way. Mouth the opposite on GTE and we still remain civil. Everyone claims to be better than Greyhound even though Greyhound is humble while others are arrogant. Greyhound has just been bullied too much and now they're even afraid of bus fans taking photos of their buses.

Swadian, I am not disagreeing with the premise of what you are saying. But read the way you said it. You sound ridiculous, like an evangelical preacher talking to his choir about god.

I am offering you this as friendly advice. When I talk about Mercedes, you probably think I sound like a biased idiot- which is fine, since I am biased and irrationally brand loyal. But, while I think it would be cool if you were to buy a Benz, since we'd have something in common to talk about and stuff, I really don't care what brand of car you drive. I'm not trying to convert you to the Church of Karl and Gottlieb. So I can come across like a jerk because it doesn't really hurt my cause any.

But you? You seem to really want people to get over a (honestly) irrational hatred of busses in general and Greyhound in particular. I understand, and don't disagree with the goal. I tend to be viewed as a pro-bus guy in the local movement because I'm mostly interested in mobility, and busses play an important role.

If you want to actually accomplish getting people to give the dog a try, you have to play to the audience you are working. So tone it down a bit.

 

[Misty.]

In the case of Donald Ainsworth kicking the Occupiers off his DL3 in Amarillo, let us not forget that the Freedom Riders were bombed in Anniston. Greyhound is fearful of any political activism on their buses. Remember, Donald Ainsworth never said he hated Occupiers, but the Occupiers were a large, enthusiastic group of political activists. Politics on Greyhound buses = trouble on Greyhound buses.

Edit: Imagine you were a Greyhound driver, and you saw this on your bus: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6764516165_c9cc1da157_z.jpg.

And this in the station: http://obrag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Occupy-SD-bus-Day2.jpg.

If I were a Greyhound driver, I wouldn't care what their cause was, I would take extreme caution.

And sadly, those are good examples of why I try not to show any opinion of anything anywhere, unless I'm specifically saying something like "Look for this (item), I want to meet up with you" to someone at an event we're both at - I was bullied for the majority of the time I was drifting through the public school system, I don't want to be harassed for my interests now that I'm 30.

Hmm, while I'm here, might as well distract you all with another STL Greyhound picture... Though for those that don't already know the address, I also have a few pictures of Connect Transit buses (service area, Bloomington-Normal, IL) and a few wrapped STL Metro buses (including one of the new to us articulated busses), in https://www.flickr.com/photos/mistyolr/sets/72157646096987591/ (link is directly to the set they're in).

 

[Green Maned Lion]

No offense, Misty. We all adapt to our demons in our own way, and you sorta win if you simply survive it.

But that being said, I got bullied for my opinions and still do. And I hold them proud, for if I stopped, they'd win.

 

[railiner]

In the case of Donald Ainsworth kicking the Occupiers off his DL3 in Amarillo, let us not forget that the Freedom Riders were bombed in Anniston. Greyhound is fearful of any political activism on their buses. Remember, Donald Ainsworth never said he hated Occupiers, but the Occupiers were a large, enthusiastic group of political activists. Politics on Greyhound buses = trouble on Greyhound buses.

Edit: Imagine you were a Greyhound driver, and you saw this on your bus: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6764516165_c9cc1da157_z.jpg.

And this in the station: http://obrag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Occupy-SD-bus-Day2.jpg.

If I were a Greyhound driver, I wouldn't care what their cause was, I would take extreme caution.

Looks like a bunch of lost souls that were born much too late.....I went thru the worst of the radical's in the 1968 era, so the 'occupy movement' is very lame in comparison, and I just kind of smile when I see them 'acting out'...anyway, they seem to have fizzled away for the most part.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

(gasp) Misty, that is a WHITE G4500! Disgusting but it probably isn't that bad because the worse ones have been sent for the first rebuilds. I know #7104 was horrible (rough-riding and smelled like burning plastic), but now it has been rebuilt and should be awesome because the rebuilt G I rode recently, #7029, was very clean and comfortable, had as much legroom as I could need to stretch out fully.

That's what I'm talking about. Everyone makes fun of Greyhound, Greyhound doesn't make fun of anyone. Mouth Greyhound support on any non-Greyhound forum and you have hate coming your way. Mouth the opposite on GTE and we still remain civil. Everyone claims to be better than Greyhound even though Greyhound is humble while others are arrogant. Greyhound has just been bullied too much and now they're even afraid of bus fans taking photos of their buses.

Swadian, I am not disagreeing with the premise of what you are saying. But read the way you said it. You sound ridiculous, like an evangelical preacher talking to his choir about god.

I am offering you this as friendly advice. When I talk about Mercedes, you probably think I sound like a biased idiot- which is fine, since I am biased and irrationally brand loyal. But, while I think it would be cool if you were to buy a Benz, since we'd have something in common to talk about and stuff, I really don't care what brand of car you drive. I'm not trying to convert you to the Church of Karl and Gottlieb. So I can come across like a jerk because it doesn't really hurt my cause any.

But you? You seem to really want people to get over a (honestly) irrational hatred of busses in general and Greyhound in particular. I understand, and don't disagree with the goal. I tend to be viewed as a pro-bus guy in the local movement because I'm mostly interested in mobility, and busses play an important role.

If you want to actually accomplish getting people to give the dog a try, you have to play to the audience you are working. So tone it down a bit.

I do agree. When I was a kid in West Philadelphia, I was bullied too. People made fun of me around the clock and I had no friends whatsoever in those days. The people in authority simply tolerated the physical attacks. I'm not a big guy, as I've said before. I'm in a much better position now, but looking at Greyhound, I feel like they are being Little Swadian standing against the brick wall over recess because everyone ostracizes him, and he doesn't want to be pushed or punched from behind, so he puts the wall behind him.

I would like to say one thing: richer people are not always better people. Amtrak passengers, well they're richer than us Hounders, but that doesn't always make them better. The Belfield incident on a train was that these affluent middle-aged couples were discussing travel, and one man mentioned "We passed through Belfield after entering South Dakota". I excused myself and said that Belfield was in North Dakota. But then he insisted it was in South Dakota and everyone else ganged up on me, the Greyhound fan stickers on my shirt did not help, and the rest is self-explanatory. This was recently, but something similar happened two years ago on my last Amtrak LD trip, except it was about Ely and Des Moines, not Belfield. Nothing physical, but still, being arrogant and not being arrogant is a Choice that everyone can make.

Please remember that I had not just cut in to a conversation. I had previously joined in when they were discussing Hotwire hotel deals.

Also, the HVAC on Amtrak sounds just like my workplace. So that gives me added stress because I'm trying to forget about work for a while but the HVAC sound is a constant reminder.

In the case of Donald Ainsworth kicking the Occupiers off his DL3 in Amarillo, let us not forget that the Freedom Riders were bombed in Anniston. Greyhound is fearful of any political activism on their buses. Remember, Donald Ainsworth never said he hated Occupiers, but the Occupiers were a large, enthusiastic group of political activists. Politics on Greyhound buses = trouble on Greyhound buses.

Edit: Imagine you were a Greyhound driver, and you saw this on your bus: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6764516165_c9cc1da157_z.jpg.

And this in the station: http://obrag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Occupy-SD-bus-Day2.jpg.

If I were a Greyhound driver, I wouldn't care what their cause was, I would take extreme caution.

Looks like a bunch of lost souls that were born much too late.....I went thru the worst of the radical's in the 1968 era, so the 'occupy movement' is very lame in comparison, and I just kind of smile when I see them 'acting out'...anyway, they seem to have fizzled away for the most part.....

I'm interested, what was it really like in the Summer of Love? What was it like for the bus and transport industry in general?

Edit: minor errors

 

[railiner]

That era is very well documented. The public transportation did very well then, with the Vietnam War raging, a lot of military transport. There were many civil rights activities..."Resurrection City" or March on Washington and other places. There were hippies heading to San Francisco, with "flower's in their hair"......

The Interstate Highway system was pretty well on its way to completion, speeding up intercity travel. New 40 foot intercity buses (GMC PD-4903 and MCI MC-7) were going into high production to supplement the earlier Scenicruiser and Eagle coaches. Penn Central was developing the new Metroliner's, and Boeing was shortly going to introduce the Jumbo Jet B-747....

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Summer ofLove has to be better than it is now. All pussyfoots. No radicals willing to speak up for what's right.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

That era is very well documented. The public transportation did very well then, with the Vietnam War raging, a lot of military transport. There were many civil rights activities..."Resurrection City" or March on Washington and other places. There were hippies heading to San Francisco, with "flower's in their hair"......

The Interstate Highway system was pretty well on its way to completion, speeding up intercity travel. New 40 foot intercity buses (GMC PD-4903 and MCI MC-7) were going into high production to supplement the earlier Scenicruiser and Eagle coaches. Penn Central was developing the new Metroliner's, and Boeing was shortly going to introduce the Jumbo Jet B-747....

What was the main operator of the PD-4903? Greyhound never operated them. Would you have preferred a GMC Buffalo or MCI MC-7/MC-8? I think the MCI's look better than the Buffalo, at least.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So, I visited Denver Garage, and here's a shot of the Greyhounds lined up with an Americanos too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14791809656/sizes/l.

 

[rickycourtney]

Swad, why do you always call the G4500 the "MCI-Dina" G4500? The bus was built by MCI employees, at a MCI owned facility.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Swad, why do you always call the G4500 the "MCI-Dina" G4500? The bus was built by MCI employees, at a MCI owned facility.

Dina owned MCI, not the other way around. Most of the G4500's were built at this plant: http://www.elindependientedehidalgo.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/07-pag19-n1.jpg. Does that plant say "MCI"?

Edit: The workers at Sahagun built the buses while wearing Dina uniforms. Moreover, the G4500 has major deign elements from the Dina Viaggio.

 

[rickycourtney]

Swad, why do you always call the G4500 the "MCI-Dina" G4500? The bus was built by MCI employees, at a MCI owned facility.

Dina owned MCI, not the other way around. Most of the G4500's were built at this plant: http://www.elindependientedehidalgo.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/07-pag19-n1.jpg. Does that plant say "MCI"?
Edit: The workers at Sahagun built the buses while wearing Dina uniforms. Moreover, the G4500 has major deign elements from the Dina Viaggio.

Okay touché. I looked it up and you're right... Dina bought MCI in 1994. But that would mean that the 102DL3 was built by Dina employees at a Dina owned facility.

But here's a quote from the National Bus Trader article on the G4500:

"It incorporates Greyhound specifications, MCI engineering, and production at MCI’s facility in Mexico."

Here's my point. It was built and sold as an MCI bus so it doesn't make since to call the G4500 a "MCI-Dina G4500" anymore than it makes since to call the 102DL3 a "MCI-Dina 102DL3."

As an aside my Toyota Tacoma was built at the now defunct NUMMI factory by workers who also built GM cars... but I don't call it a "Toyota-GM Tacoma".

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

No, the 102DL3 was built at a plant at says "MCI" and the employees wore MCI uniforms. The G4500 was built at a plant that said "Dina" and the employees wore Dina uniforms. And the G4500 is half-Viaggio by mechanic accounts, even though NBT doesn't say that.

 

[railiner]

I would have to agree with Swadian on this.....the 'G's seemed a lot more like those Dina "Marcopolo-Viaggio"'s than an MCI....and they were built at the Dina plant in Mexico, while the 'D's were built at the MCI plants at Winnipeg and Pembina. No matter that Dina owned MCI during that period.

 

[railiner]

That era is very well documented. The public transportation did very well then, with the Vietnam War raging, a lot of military transport. There were many civil rights activities..."Resurrection City" or March on Washington and other places. There were hippies heading to San Francisco, with "flower's in their hair"......

The Interstate Highway system was pretty well on its way to completion, speeding up intercity travel. New 40 foot intercity buses (GMC PD-4903 and MCI MC-7) were going into high production to supplement the earlier Scenicruiser and Eagle coaches. Penn Central was developing the new Metroliner's, and Boeing was shortly going to introduce the Jumbo Jet B-747....

What was the main operator of the PD-4903? Greyhound never operated them. Would you have preferred a GMC Buffalo or MCI MC-7/MC-8? I think the MCI's look better than the Buffalo, at least.

Greyhound only operated the 35 foot, PD-4107 "buffalo".

Since Continental Trailways had a lock on most of the Eagle production, and Greyhound on the MC-7 production, the PD-4903 sold to mainly independent carrier's, that did not have previous access to a 40 foot coach. Also, some of the independent members of the National Trailways Bus System stayed loyal to GMC, and did not acquire Eagle's.

I have always favored General Motor's coaches. Their driver's compartment was ergonomically speaking, far superior to the other's.

And to my eye, their styling was aesthetically speaking far superior to the other's..... They had a very cohesive styling with lines that just looked right. Some of their design elements evolved from some earlier coaches syled by famed industrial designer Raymond Loewy.

The early Eagle's reflected some of their Euro heritage, while the MCI's seemed to have an 'industrial look' with awkward lines, especially around the 'greenhouse' area...the MC-8 was much improved over the MC-7, but still did not have the sleekness of the 'buffalo'......

 

[rickycourtney]

My point is, it's got an MCI badge... so it's an MCI... not a Dina.

Yes, it was Dina's fault for cutting corners on this bus and tarnishing the MCI name, but the truth is that this bus is important in MCI's history as a flawed product, but one that has been very influential when it comes to design of line-haul buses (the newer D4505 still uses the same headlights and switched to the frameless windows).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Actually, the G4500 headlights were simply much-enlarged E4500 headlights. And I never said it was not a MCI, I said it was a MCI-Dina, meaning both MCI and Dina pitched half-and-half into the bus. Also, I believe the G4500 has a Dina engine compartment like this Viaggio: http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/100-1997DinaViaggio/100-1997DinaViaggio-1.jpg. You can see the fan on the left side of the engine, a Dina design feature and similar to Van Hool.

Railiner, so how did MCI beat GMC and Eagle? I myself like the industrial look of the MC-8 similar to a F40PH.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

A GMC W4500 is what? With the gas engine we can have a discussion. With the diesel it's an Isuzu. Isuzu engine, transmission, chassis, body, GMC badge.

There is nothing wrong with Swadian calling it a potentially applicable name.

An Arnage Green Label is a BMW-Bentley for that nasty twin turbo BMW V8 that sits under its hood. The Red Label is a Bentley pure and simple. A Bentley Continental is a VW-Bentley because of its VW W12 engine, it's Phaeton derived platform, and the fact that quite a few were built in the Phaeton glass factory in Dresden, Germany.

For simplicity we don't mention the details of its parentage. But it's muddled heritage remains. Besides, the last REAL Bentley left Derby in the 50s.

 

[railiner]

Wouldn't the last REAL Bentley have been prior to the 1931 Rolls takeover of Bentley?

 

[railiner]

Railiner, so how did MCI beat GMC and Eagle? I myself like the industrial look of the MC-8 similar to a F40PH.

That was mainly a result of the long-running US Government battle against GM's near monopoly of the bus manufacturing industry. GM and Greyhound had a cozy long relationship as well, with Greyhound getting preferential treatment of GM's newest model production. And its exclusive Scenicruiser, although Greyhound had commissioned that design with its own engineering input.

The result, in a nutshell, was that GM had to release some of its patents and design's, like the "Angle Drive" to other bus manufacturer's, such as Flxible, and offer all of their model's to all who desired to purchase them. In addition, Greyhound was ordered to purchase some of its fleet from other sources.

Since Greyhound owned the design of the Scenicruiser, and having a thousand of them in their fleet; rather than letting anyone else get one, they decided to end its production run, having enough (about one sixth) in their fleet to cover most of the important 'prestige' main routes as a 'halo' vehicle...

Greyhound already owned MCI in Winnipeg, which built a relative handful of buses for GLC. Greyhound had a modified model built for testing, and decided to ramp up production, build a new assembly plant in Pembina, and get all of their new buses from MCI in the future. When MCI had matured to the point where they could supply all of Greyhound's needs, and still have surplus capacity, they started selling to other carrier's. Many other carrier's believed that whatever Greyhound bought, had to be good, so they ran to MCI. The MCI coaches were more like the GM's than the Eagle's were, so Eagle did not do as well with independent carrier's. And GM, which had the "power, plant, and personality" to fight back, and produce a product that could bury MCI, if they wanted to, chose to just quietly exit the coach business, which they did in 1980, rather than fight the government any further....

Edit: A few years later, GM sold off their transit bus business (the RTS design and the 'Classic' variation of the older 'New Look' design), as well.

Ironically the buyer was MCI, who started producing the RTS in their TMC plant in Roswell, NM, and the 'Classic' in the former GM Canadian plant until they turned and sold it to Nova...

 

[railiner]

The F40PH was also styled by General Motor's stylists, right?

GM monopolized so many of the businesses it competed in, when they "ruled the world" (roll Cold Play song )....

Look at what happenned since....they divested EMD, Detroit Diesel, Frigidaire, and how many other's?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So why did Greyhound choose to get all their buses from MCI in the future if GMC's were better, by your account, and they already had GMC's in their fleet? I thought Greyhound would have played the game of order-switching to confuse suppliers and keep them guessing and trying to satisfy Greyhound. Like what they are doing with MCI and Prevost. Besides, with so many garages, standardization wouldn't have been the best idea.

But what about the Flxible Vistaliner? How was that old bus? Never heard much about Flxible OTRB's.