Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Green Maned Lion]

SCR greatly reduces oxides of Nitrogen. DPF reduces testable measurements by holding on to particulates and then releasing them later as smaller particles (same weight) after the test is completed. EGR reduces pollutant concentration by mixing the exhaust with fresh air- and expelling a much larger volume of air through the pipe as a result.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So, GML, by your account, EGR is useless? So EGR just mixes pollutants with air but doesn't do anything else?

 

[rickycourtney]

Here's a D4505 engine photo for those that want to see: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14562122042/. That is not the same batch that keeps catching on fire, this batch has Cummins ISX12 instead of Detroit 60-H EGR.

Yup, like I said, a very cramped space.

So if EGR is ineffective at combating anything other than Nitrogen Oxide, why even install it, let along require it?

Because NOx is a particularly nasty atmospheric pollutant.

So is SCR going to lower the carbon particulates?

No. SCR reduces NOx.

Or why don't we just get rid of EGR, DPF, and SCR, just run an old 60-R in a DL3? Even with no fires, this fuel consumption and unreliability isn't going to help anyone, and it's not just affecting Greyhound.

Again, because the EPA is trying to reduce NOx emissions.Fuel consumption has been improving as engine manufacturers improve the technology.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Then Greyhound is going to have to re-engine everything with Detroit 13 and Volvo D13? Bye-bye Cummins.

Anyways, the Greyhound driver I talked with in Colorado said that he thinks Greyhound will order units again soon. He says they order new buses every year.

According to Greyhound's System Timetable, the extra Denver skeds over the summer were only seasonal, and will lose some frequencies effective August 20th, 2014. Right before the kids go back to school. There were indeed tons of kids on the Denvers skeds this summer. Maybe they will have more service for Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's, and the winter ski season.

Greyhound also cut service in the PNW again, reverting to the old 3x daily on PUT-SEA-VAN, with weekend extras. This might be seasonal or it might just be because Greyhound hasn't recovered from the G4500 debacle yet. As of August 20th, 2014, all PUT-SEA-VAC runs will be through from LAD, though two southbound runs are officially starting in SEA. Also, the LAD-SEA skeds 1446 and 1439 are now backed up to PUT.

This is really weird, seems like Greyhound is selling through tickets Los Angeles to Vancouver, but actually operating independent units north Seattle for customs reasons? Maybe the H3-45's are Blue G's, while the D4505's take over south of Seattle or maybe Portland.

 

[railiner]

Yes...Greyhound is basing their early seasonal adjustments based on recent historical ridership patterns. I would have preferred to keep the summer seasonal runs intact until the Wednesday after Labor Day, which was their traditional end of summer service, with a few further reductions at the end of September.

As a result of this early reduction, we can look forward to having to run multiple sections of the remaining trips for a few weeks, until the kids are all back in school. Here in NYC, that comes later than most places...after Labor Day.

 

[rickycourtney]

I'm not an engine guy... but I know that King County Metro was forced to purchase Caterpillar engines for a couple of years. They turned out to be gas guzzlers. Everything else in the fleet is Cummins and seems to run really well.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Caterpillar failed hard in MCI's too. GLC had a few 1997 DL3's with Caterpillar C10's that were forced into early retirement in 2011 with the exception of #1003. They also had some Caterpillar 3196B-powered C3's built 1989 and 1991 that were apparently retired in 2009, seems to have done better than the C10 but the C10 was supposed to be better than the 3176B. I don't get it either.

NJT has D4500's with Caterpillar C13 ACERT that were tested to get 6.13 mpg, better than the 5.83 with Cummins ISX12 but worse than the 6.79 with Detroit 60-R. But Cummins seems to do well in transits. Perhaps they are better at lower speeds. Or maybe the ISL9 is better than the ISX12, truckers have the ISX15, don't know how well that does, not sure about ISM10.8. I really can't get all these Cummins engines straight.

I wonder when the kids go back to school in Denver, but yeah, there were lots of kids on Greyhound out of Denver, not meaning college kids, but grade school kids.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I had a CAT 3126 in my GMC T6500. I had nothing but trouble, and primarily with the parts that were unique to CAT engines (like the HEUI system, I pronounced it hooey because that's what it is). It was my first experience with motorized vehicles that don't simply run when you maintain them properly.

 

[railiner]

We had CAT's in some of our 102D3's. Hated them....they had some peculiar throttle (believe it was air operated, possibly), that was kind of like a binary system....that is, it was either "on", or "off".....very difficult to smoothly modulate speed. It gave passenger's a rough ride, as you would step on it if your speed slackened, and then release the pedal once you achieved your desired speed. With the Detroit powered coaches, you could precisely control the engine speed with minute adjustments of the pedal....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Looks like Greyhound Canada made the stupid mistake of ordering 102C3's with Detroit 8V92TA's then replacing them early with Caterpillar 3176B's. I have no idea why they even lasted to 2010 but probably because the had been re-engine. By the way, those units appreently had Fuller T-11607D manual transmissions.

GLC also had some H3-45's that apparently looked really weird in the old livery. From Barraclou, #1011: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1011_2.jpg. #994: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound_canada994_2.jpg. #1257 ex-Voyageur in EE Quicklink: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/vcl1257.jpg. From Peter McLoughlin, ex-Voyageur #1254: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/h345/1999h345/1254left.jpg.

Will Greyhound ever order H3-45's again? High luggage capacity and reliability is the best of the fiberglass buses.

 

[railiner]

Hmmm....only could get the first link to show (1011).....

I remember when some GLC H3-45's would come to us on the pool run. IIRC, they had at least one, I believe numbered in the high 900 series (994?), that had a seven speed stick transmission.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Uh, don't know why the links aren't working. See if this works: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/h345/index.htm.

And this one? http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/vcl1257.jpg.

Interesting to see a H3-45 being used for QuickLink commuter service. That is an ex-Voyageur lift-equipped. Don't understand why it's being used for commuter service, huge cargo hold turned to waste.

Something interesting about the H3-45, it has a 470 cubic feet cargo hold without a lift, but with a lift, drops down to 440 cubic feet. Plus overhead parcel racks, at 117 cubic feet, and you have 587 and 557 cubic feet respectively. How the heck does the J4500 have 573 cubic feet total? And doesn't lose any to the lift due to having a rear lift.

Now I see why people order the J4500 so much. Does have only 183 gallons fuel compared to 230 in the H3-45. I don't see how that would allow the fuel capacity though.

BTW, H3-41 turns amazing, 40.6 feet turning circle without IFS. Wheelbase comparable to a 102D3 which turns at 44 feet.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Automatic transmissions on busses should be illegal. You lose too much braking power.

 

[rickycourtney]

Automatic transmissions on busses should be illegal. You lose too much braking power.

Illegal? You must still be drunk this morning.

If drivers are losing too much braking power, they can always reach over and press one button to manually downshift.

Plus there are different types of drive systems that can't use manual transmissions. Here in King County, where we have invested heavily in Hybrid Diesel Electric buses? To my knowledge the transmissions on parallel hybrids (the type also used by MCI) need to be automatic since they are also serving as a power split device. On the buses with series hybrid drives or all-electric drives (trolleybuses) there is no shifting involved since an electric motor is turning the wheels.

Would you just ban hybrid and electric buses?

Doesn't make a lot of since considering those buses with series hybrid drives and all-electric drives could decimate any conventionally powered bus or commercial truck on the market when it comes to driving up or down hills (where braking power is important).

 

[rickycourtney]

Interesting to see a H3-45 being used for QuickLink commuter service. That is an ex-Voyageur lift-equipped. Don't understand why it's being used for commuter service, huge cargo hold turned to waste.

Maybe they want to give commuters a "better" experience?

Something interesting about the H3-45, it has a 470 cubic feet cargo hold without a lift, but with a lift, drops down to 440 cubic feet. Plus overhead parcel racks, at 117 cubic feet, and you have 587 and 557 cubic feet respectively. How the heck does the J4500 have 573 cubic feet total? And doesn't lose any to the lift due to having a rear lift.

How important is cargo capacity to Greyhound in the US? I know up in Canada GPX is huge business for them, to the point where buses tow pup trailers, but it seems like nothing more than a niche in the US. I have only ever seen a few GPX boxes loaded onto buses here in Seattle.
I mean the H3-45 is a REALLY nice bus with a huge cargo capacity... but it's also more expensive than an X3-45. Why should Greyhound US spend that extra money?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

That's why there's a Jake Brake and/or retarder. Jake Brake gears down the engine for a smooth stop. The driver told me both fulfill the same function.

That luggage capacity on the H3-45 could be useful not for GPX, but for passengers. I don't really know why a regular H3-45 would be that expensive, more than a X3-45 yes, but has the same passenger cabin and the same dashboard, just fiberglass construction and more luggage capacity. The H3-45's luggage capacity would be very useful for passengers, not GPX, because in high season Greyhound's X3-45's often top out on luggage before topping out on people.

Now I've realized a lot of Prevost coaches are really old-fashioned, the X3-45 looks modern but not that different from an old XL-45 and the X3-45 looks like a bus from the 1960s even though they were built in the 1990s. See: http://www.inter-bus.ca/auger711.jpg.

Also, the H3-45's original dashboard was very square-looking: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/bourgeois/bourgeois03050_driver.jpg.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Automatic transmissions on busses should be illegal. You lose too much braking power.

Illegal? You must still be drunk this morning.

If drivers are losing too much braking power, they can always reach over and press one button to manually downshift.

Plus there are different types of drive systems that can't use manual transmissions. Here in King County, where we have invested heavily in Hybrid Diesel Electric buses? To my knowledge the transmissions on parallel hybrids (the type also used by MCI) need to be automatic since they are also serving as a power split device. On the buses with series hybrid drives or all-electric drives (trolleybuses) there is no shifting involved since an electric motor is turning the wheels.

Would you just ban hybrid and electric buses?

Doesn't make a lot of since considering those buses with series hybrid drives and all-electric drives could decimate any conventionally powered bus or commercial truck on the market when it comes to driving up or down hills (where braking power is important).

If I don't get back to you tonight, remind me. There are several flaws with your logic.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Woah, just use the Jake man.

Anyway, I don't understand the "bells and whistles" difference between standard coaches. For example, standard X3-45 vs H3-45:

Both have air-ride.

Both have TV monitors.

Both have the option for enclosed parcel racks.

Both have power blinds.

Both have lavatory with option for running water.

Both have individual consoles with reading lights and air vents.

Both have Aluminum Durabright wheels.

What is the difference?

Edit: typo.

 

[rickycourtney]

The passenger cabin on the H3-45 has nicer appointments than the X3-45. It's also got a nicer exterior design.

But that being said the H3-45 seems to be more popular than the X3-45.

I just don't think Greyhound US cares about cargo capacity like Greyhound Canada does.

EDIT: finishing my thought.

 

[rickycourtney]

Automatic transmissions on busses should be illegal. You lose too much braking power.

Illegal? You must still be drunk this morning.

If drivers are losing too much braking power, they can always reach over and press one button to manually downshift.

Plus there are different types of drive systems that can't use manual transmissions. Here in King County, where we have invested heavily in Hybrid Diesel Electric buses? To my knowledge the transmissions on parallel hybrids (the type also used by MCI) need to be automatic since they are also serving as a power split device. On the buses with series hybrid drives or all-electric drives (trolleybuses) there is no shifting involved since an electric motor is turning the wheels.

Would you just ban hybrid and electric buses?

Doesn't make a lot of since considering those buses with series hybrid drives and all-electric drives could decimate any conventionally powered bus or commercial truck on the market when it comes to driving up or down hills (where braking power is important).

If I don't get back to you tonight, remind me. There are several flaws with your logic.

While you're at it why don't you also break down the flaws in making a transmission type "illegal".
I support murder being illegal... I can't possibly fathom a reason why we would make automatic transmissions illegal.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Exterior design, OK, but nicer interior appointments? I don't see that.

X3-45 interior: http://api.drivingforce.ca/Images/Units/112504-PREVOST-X3-45-60932.JPG.

H3-45 interior: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/maheux/maheux9428_3.jpg.

Another H3-45 interior: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/bellhorizon/bellhorizon1024_6.jpg.

The H3-45 probably costs more due to being taller and bigger, with more luggage capacity, but I really don't see other advantages. Dash is the same too.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

After just proving that the H3-45 indeed does have the nicer interior, the crowd scratches their head as to what Swadian intends to say next.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Why is the H3-45 interior nicer? Same seats, same parcel racks, same TV's, same overhead consoles, same windows, same everything. OK, you can get a H3-45 with faux-wood flooring but you can also get a X3-45 with faux-wood flooring.

 

[rickycourtney]

Okay so some quick back of the napkin calculations here:

Greyhound allows 1 checked baggage with total exterior dimensions of 62 inches.

A very large rolling suitcase of those dimensions would be 31"x19"x12" or 4.1 cubic feet. If every passenger had a bag that big (they wouldn't) it would fill 209 cubic feet.

Even if every passenger carried a perfectly square box 20"x20"x20", 5.1 cubic feet it would still only fill 260 cubic feet.

The X3-45 has a 376 cubic foot underfloor compartment. So even under my nightmare scenario there would still be 30% left for GPX cargo and excess luggage. If the underfloor compartments are filling up (which they shouldn't be) Greyhound should actually make good on the threat to charge people for excess luggage.

For the record most "rollaboards" are about 22"x14"x9" or about 1.6 cubic feet. A full load of those is 80.2 cubic feet (21% of an X3's capacity).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Here's the problem, Railiner is a dispatcher and he says they are filling up and having to use seated space. It was sometime back on this thread. Maybe Greyhound is making do on their threats to charge extra, but passengers insist on bringing two bags per person.

Or Greyhound could order the H3-45 and allow everyone to carry two bags per person at no extra charge.

I don't know why they're filling up, but people say they are.

Two bags per person would be an advantage against competitors, everyone from Southwest Airlines, to Amtrak, to private autos, to Megabus, who's TD925 double-deckers have terrible luggage capacity.