Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

The retail version S class is not equipped for full autonomy. Mercedes may have shown that it's possible with a prototype version of the S class. But Google has shown that it's possible with a prototype based on the Prius.

The S class does come with a cruise control system that uses cameras and radar. Same as the Prius. My point: it's not exactly exotic technology anymore.

Although in defense of the S class it does have a nifty air freshener system for those Mercedes owners who are too good to use a little tree. Of course a little tree costs 75¢ while the Mercedes air freshener refill costs $75.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Actually the retail S-Class is capable of autonomously following the car in front of it, both by speed and steering. It also has vastly superior active safety features, and isn't built by a company that willfully installed badly designed, highly dangerous cut price Takata airbags in their products.

But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Perhaps Van Hool seats aren't that bad, but when you've been sitting in Amayas they are really no comparison. And by the way, Torino VIP can be ordered with PTV's, just not in the catalog, need a special order. There was a J4500LX E4500LX on display with Torino VIP seats and PTV's.

Amaya Torino G: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5uaoqsl4s02k2ui/AABVK8_021XshoQ3gHTqqs67a/10010-3986.jpg.

Amaya Torino VIP with PTV: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5uaoqsl4s02k2ui/AAD_9ZnU4lyi6ZVsOnucId7ua/MCI%C2%AE%20E4500%20LX%20SeatBack%20with%20Tray%20and%20Video.jpg.

I doubt Amaya would be that expensive because they are made in Mexico, where costs are lower than the US, Belgium, or Germany. I'm sure National Seating 4210's aren't bad at all, but I'm not sure how they compare to Van Hool and Setra seating. Greyhound doesn't use National anymore and the American Seating always seems to be the most overpriced for their comfort. Besides, Torino G is also a "containment" seat.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The video, I couldn't really scan around, because I had a seatmate that ride, and I was not at the front so I could not shot out the windshield. Those Premier LS are too tall to see over the tops.

That ride was actually pretty horrible. It was a D4505 with sagging Premier LS. And yes, it was actually sagging, as in the center of the bottom dipped down into a truly miserable position.

 

[railiner]

I have a 2010 Prius model 5, with the Advanced Technology Package. It's sticker price is probably less than a third of what a new S-Class costs. Of course, the cars are in completely different classes, and I will admit that the new S Class is my ultimate 'dream car. That said, my Prius does have a very nice suite of technology for a car in its price range...including radar based active cruise control, collision prevention, camera guided lane keep assist, as well as camera and ultrasound self parking, navigation system that is both GPS based, and backup INS based while satellite signal is temporarily lost (as in a long tunnel)... Between the nav system, the radar, the camera's, the servo steering, the satellite radio receiver, and the Safe T Link cellular com....all that hardware should be sufficient to make the car capable of fully automated or remote guided operation.

All that is needed would be the appropriate software programming to make it possible.

 

[railiner]

Actually the retail S-Class is capable of autonomously following the car in front of it, both by speed and steering. It also has vastly superior active safety features, and isn't built by a company that willfully installed badly designed, highly dangerous cut price Takata airbags in their products.

But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.

I took a ride over to Rallye Motors, one of the largest Mercedes dealership's on Long Island....sat and gawked at a new S550 4Matic with the Executive Plus rear seating....awesome! Had to drag myself out of it. I took home a brochure on the 2015 model's. What a fantastic lineup....

Someday.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Something bad happened.....again: http://abc7.com/traffic/greyhound-bus-catches-fire-on-i-5-south/254149/.

Greyhound Lines 2010 MCI D4505 #86337 driving southbound on Interstate 5 towards Los Angeles caught on fire from the engine and burned up. The bus was powered by a Detroit Diesel 60-H EGR, which is by far the worst Detroit 60. Two of its sisters have already burned, #86379 and #86381, both also powered with the same Detroit 60-H EGR.

Mechanics say the EGR ruined the Detroit 60 and made it a pain in the behind. For example, older rebuilt DL3's powered with the 60-r or 60-P have never caught on fire. Before the rebuilds, some DL3's did burn, but by that time they had run for years with deferred maintenance. OTOH, Greyhound has greatly improved maintenance and LAD is known for having good maintenance. But #86337 burned anyway.

The unit could have been operating one of four schedules, Sked 6813 SAC-LAD, Sked 1439 PUT-LAD, Sked 6743 SFD-LAD, or Sked 6749 SFD-LAD. All could've passed that location around 5:30 AM. I believe it was Sked 6813 due to the low amount of passengers aboard, only 15. The others would all be Express or Limited service, which is usually far more popular.

 

[railiner]

Fortunately no one was hurt. It happened on the 12th, and wasn't newsworthy enough to make the national news, fortunately....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

It is indeed nice to know that none of these three D4505 fires resulted in serious injuries. Imagine if this was on national news. There goes Greyhound's reputation again.

That D4505 is totally destroyed. There goes a $500,000 bus, but I'm sure insurance will make it up.

Let's see, at least 3 out of Greyhound's 107 D4505's in that batch have been destroyed by fire, and they're only been in service 4 years. At this linear rate, 20 years of service later, 2030, and at least 15 would burn, not counting age which might cause even more burnings.

 

[rickycourtney]

But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.

I have driven a Mercedes C-Class sedan a number of times. Its a very nice car. I'm not arguing that point.
I also got the chance to sit in the back of a 2015 S-Class with the Executive Rear Seat Package. I quite enjoyed the hot stone massage.

That being said, I have no plans to ever purchase a $115,000 car.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I saw this at Denver: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14755708739/.

A Greyhound D4505, J4500, and G4500 in a row. Yes, a second-hand J4500 from Coach America.

 

[rickycourtney]

Mechanics say the EGR ruined the Detroit 60 and made it a pain in the behind. For example, older rebuilt DL3's powered with the 60-r or 60-P have never caught on fire. Before the rebuilds, some DL3's did burn, but by that time they had run for years with deferred maintenance. OTOH, Greyhound has greatly improved maintenance and LAD is known for having good maintenance. But #86337 burned anyway.

The EGR systems do generate a lot of heat... so they can be very dangerous if something flammable comes into contact with it. It's easier with a truck, you have more room around the engine. Engine compartments on buses are very small spaces.But be that as it may, due to emissions standards, the EGR systems aren't going away.

Fortunately no one was hurt. It happened on the 12th, and wasn't newsworthy enough to make the national news, fortunately....

I didn't even see the story on the newswires up here in Seattle. There were no injures, few passengers on board and bus fires are relatively common... so it's not really newsworthy outside of California.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I guess it's not really newsworthy even outside the bus discussions, but this does mean one less D4505 in Greyhound's fleet. And there were two read-end accidents recently. In both cases, tractor-trailers read-ended Greyhound units on the Interstate. The first one was a D4505 on I-40 in northern Texas. The second one was a 102DL3 (#6507) on I-10 in the Florida Panhandle. Both units took minor damage to the engine hatches, etc.

In the second case, the replacement coach was #FL86501, a D4505 owned by Florida and a gap in Greyhound's roster.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You know, it's fascinating. EGR is the simplest and oldest emissions trick in the book. Almost every car made in the past 40 years for sale in the US market have it. I have never heard of it causing fires.

The Detroit 60 EGR was installed in thousands of conventional trucks, including cement mixers with rear mounted engines. It is not known for fires.

But stick it in the engine bay of an MCI bus, maintain it by the Mickey Mouse wieners that pass for Greyhound mechanics, and they burn. Some how, Mr. Wilbur, I don't think the problem is the engine.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.

I have driven a Mercedes C-Class sedan a number of times. Its a very nice car. I'm not arguing that point.
I also got the chance to sit in the back of a 2015 S-Class with the Executive Rear Seat Package. I quite enjoyed the hot stone massage.

That being said, I have no plans to ever purchase a $115,000 car.

Nor do I. And if you want to argue against, say, the Toyota Century, which is what Toyota offers in that price class and doesn't even offer adaptive cruise control, we can discuss $115k cars.

But since Mercedes closest competitor is the GLK250 BlueTec, and the forthcoming GLA250 Bluetec, which should undercut a comparably equipped Prius V while returning better fuel economy and running on good fuel rather than bad fuel... *shrugs*

I've never understood the assertion that Mercedes are expensive. I started buying them, and still do, because I think they offer the best value on the market.

 

[railiner]

I saw this at Denver: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14755708739/.

A Greyhound D4505, J4500, and G4500 in a row. Yes, a second-hand J4500 from Coach America.

Nice shot!

What'd you do, ask them to 'stage' them that way for you?

 

[railiner]

But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.

I have driven a Mercedes C-Class sedan a number of times. Its a very nice car. I'm not arguing that point.
I also got the chance to sit in the back of a 2015 S-Class with the Executive Rear Seat Package. I quite enjoyed the hot stone massage.

That being said, I have no plans to ever purchase a $115,000 car.

Nor do I. And if you want to argue against, say, the Toyota Century, which is what Toyota offers in that price class and doesn't even offer adaptive cruise control, we can discuss $115k cars.

But since Mercedes closest competitor is the GLK250 BlueTec, and the forthcoming GLA250 Bluetec, which should undercut a comparably equipped Prius V while returning better fuel economy and running on good fuel rather than bad fuel... *shrugs*

I've never understood the assertion that Mercedes are expensive. I started buying them, and still do, because I think they offer the best value on the market.

Where in North America, have you ever seen a Toyota Century? Those rolling timewarps look like they are stuck in 1966. I bet if they sold them over here, at a reduced price, they'd be a big hit in places like Broward County, Florida.....

Perhaps Toyota should make a cheapened LS460L, and revive the Cressida name for that market...

 

[rickycourtney]

You know, it's fascinating. EGR is the simplest and oldest emissions trick in the book. Almost every car made in the past 40 years for sale in the US market have it. I have never heard of it causing fires.

The Detroit 60 EGR was installed in thousands of conventional trucks, including cement mixers with rear mounted engines. It is not known for fires.

But stick it in the engine bay of an MCI bus, maintain it by the Mickey Mouse wieners that pass for Greyhound mechanics, and they burn. Some how, Mr. Wilbur, I don't think the problem is the engine.

For the record, I don't think it was EGR that caused the problem but rather its companion device, the diesel particulate filter. During regeneration cycles the DPF heats up to above 600 degrees to burn off the accumulated particulate. I would imagine doing this in a small confined space is inherently risky, especially if it's not maintained properly.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I saw this at Denver: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14755708739/.

A Greyhound D4505, J4500, and G4500 in a row. Yes, a second-hand J4500 from Coach America.

Nice shot!What'd you do, ask them to 'stage' them that way for you?

Naw, it was just like that when I got there.

You know, it's fascinating. EGR is the simplest and oldest emissions trick in the book. Almost every car made in the past 40 years for sale in the US market have it. I have never heard of it causing fires.

The Detroit 60 EGR was installed in thousands of conventional trucks, including cement mixers with rear mounted engines. It is not known for fires.

But stick it in the engine bay of an MCI bus, maintain it by the Mickey Mouse wieners that pass for Greyhound mechanics, and they burn. Some how, Mr. Wilbur, I don't think the problem is the engine.

For the record, I don't think it was EGR that caused the problem but rather its companion device, the diesel particulate filter. During regeneration cycles the DPF heats up to above 600 degrees to burn off the accumulated particulate. I would imagine doing this in a small confined space is inherently risky, especially if it's not maintained properly.

I don't really know what's exactly going on, but all of Greyhound's recent fires have involved D4505 or G4500 units. The G4500 burns 'cause of designs flaws and construction flaws. The D4505, I don't understand why it burns so much, when the 102DL3 has never burned after rebuilds. Since the mechanics I have contact with, who are NOT "Mickey Mouse wieners", say that the EGR is the "worst idea for combating emissions", and indeed, three Greyhounds from the same batch, with the same EGR, burned up by accident, what am I going to say?

I don't understand why companies don't just burn ULSD with no DPF or EGR. Look, I'd rather have a bit more emissions, than to use more fuel, have more fires, and have more breakdowns. Yes, both truck and bus drivers have said the Detroit 60 EGR is a "fuel guzzler". And the old 60-R or 60-P did have much lower emissions than the two-stroke engines anyway.

 

[rickycourtney]

I don't understand why companies don't just burn ULSD with no DPF or EGR.

I'm sure companies would love to do that, but it's not their choice. The EPA required DPF and EGR systems starting in 2007.
As a matter of fact, ULSD became the standard because EPA 2007 compliant vehicles can't use anything else.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I don't understand why companies don't just burn ULSD with no DPF or EGR.

I'm sure companies would love to do that, but it's not their choice. The EPA required DPF and EGR systems starting in 2007.
As a matter of fact, ULSD became the standard because EPA 2007 compliant vehicles can't use anything else.

What about SCR? That going to do it better?

 

[rickycourtney]

SCR was required by the EPA 2010 regulations in addition to EGR and DPF.

The EPA seems to be much more concerned about the environmental impacts of emissions than the environmental impacts of increased fuel consumption.

I think that in the long term engine manufacturers will pressured by customers to find ways to decrease fuel consumption. They are already making progress. The first EPA 2007 compliant engines were notorious fuel guzzlers, but newer engines are much better.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Cummins ISX12 still guzzles fuel but Volvo D13 is a lot better. Hopefully so is the Detroit 13.

The 102DL3 was advertised for 330 pmpg, while the D4505 is advertised for only 240 pmpg. Similarly for the J4500. Backed up by Altoona testing.

I cannot understand why the EPA is paranoid about reducing emissions at the expense of fuel efficiency, reliability, and safety. Burned-up D4505's, I'm looking at you.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

EGR is a terrible way to combat emissions, as are burn off style DPFs because they don't actually reduce carbon particulate emissions. It's a testing trick. However they don't cause fires in the kind of numbers that happens on busses.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Here's a D4505 engine photo for those that want to see: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14562122042/. That is not the same batch that keeps catching on fire, this batch has Cummins ISX12 instead of Detroit 60-H EGR.

So if EGR is ineffective at combating anything other than Nitrogen Oxide, why even install it, let along require it? Is it not possible to burn down ULSD in the engine cylinders until it becomes almost completely Carbon Dioxide and water?

So is SCR going to lower the carbon particulates?

Or why don't we just get rid of EGR, DPF, and SCR, just run an old 60-R in a DL3? Even with no fires, this fuel consumption and unreliability isn't going to help anyone, and it's not just affecting Greyhound.