Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

And remember, the X3-45 was not designed for line-haul service. It was designed as a motorhome.

[citation needed]

It has complicated electronics that gets everyone confused, even veteran drivers.

GML beat me to it, ALL vehicles now have complicated electronics, including the most recent version of your beloved 102DL3.

I'm thinking the X3-45 is almost a J4500 with steel instead of fiberglass and a lower passenger deck, lower height in general. Of course it's favored by drivers over the J because of the smooth ride and nice cab.

Except that the X3-45 is designed to a line-haul bus and J4500 was not (although it can be used as one).

But guess what? Orleans retired their 2005 Prevosts.

Yes they recently retired their 2005 LeMirage XL-II buses. But you're talking about company that has retired EVERY bus they own that is over 10 years old, including their 102DL3's and 102EL3's... so I really don't get your point.

 

[rickycourtney]

Okay so I found this online.

Am I the only one that finds it ridiculous that companies *STILL* order buses with bare, ribbed stainless steel skirts?

Why to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a brand new D4505 or X3-45... just to slap some stainless steel skirts on it and make it look like a 20 year old bus?

You can still a D4505 from the factory with stainless steel skirts, Prevost now only offers the stainless steel skirts on the X3-45 VIP and XLII conversion buses.

 

[railiner]

I like the look of fluted stainless steel or polished aluminum on buses. I guess my affection started with the first Budd streamliner's and GMC Silverside's, and went from there....

Back then it represented "modern", compared to the all-painted heavyweight's they replaced....

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I guess making your fleet look ancient is a new fad with companies these days. Of course I'm use to seeing ancient coaches around here, look where I live.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I dunno why NJT does it. I think they are trying to hide just how much money they waste on pointless equipment replacements.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

And remember, the X3-45 was not designed for line-haul service. It was designed as a motorhome.

[citation needed]

It has complicated electronics that gets everyone confused, even veteran drivers.

GML beat me to it, ALL vehicles now have complicated electronics, including the most recent version of your beloved 102DL3.

I'm thinking the X3-45 is almost a J4500 with steel instead of fiberglass and a lower passenger deck, lower height in general. Of course it's favored by drivers over the J because of the smooth ride and nice cab.

Except that the X3-45 is designed to a line-haul bus and J4500 was not (although it can be used as one).

But guess what? Orleans retired their 2005 Prevosts.

Yes they recently retired their 2005 LeMirage XL-II buses. But you're talking about company that has retired EVERY bus they own that is over 10 years old, including their 102DL3's and 102EL3's... so I really don't get your point.

1. Robert Moore and other bus mechanics, plus charter bus owner Eric, and Prevost enthusiast Derek, have all said it was deigned s a motorhome, not a line-haul bus. Think of it, the X3-45 was revised from the XL-II in 2005, or maybe 2004. In 2005, Prevost had barely any market share of line-hauls, and barely any of their production was for line-hauls. OTOH, they had massive shares of the motorhome market, every motorhome owner aspired to own a Prevost.

2. Yeah, all vehicles have complicated electronics. Prevost have the most complicated electronics. Also, Kit never said the Denver mechanics "didn't know" how to fix them, he said they "couldn't" fix them. Perhaps Denver was not stocked with Prevost parts. Or perhaps the bus was simply not going to fixed without LOTS of trouble. And Kit said the bus log has complaints from Philadelphia. They could have fixed it before running all the way out west, I mean, there's plenty of Greyhound based from Saint Louis and Denver. They didn't do that. BTW, Greyhound does not run between Chicago and Denver, they only go through Saint Louis.

3. Yeah, IFS can last a long time. Prevosts can last a million miles. More? I doubt it. That new #86284 already had a rubber strap hanging off the undercarriage. You can blame Greyhound, but is a new bus supposed to have that happen already? And the X3-45 is supposed to ride "smooth as silk", well, not #86284. As I said from my immediate post after returning, the coach did not ride better than the D4505 #86307 which I took the other way. Moreover, that D4505 was beat-up with heavy wear in the lavatory, armrests, seat covers, etc.

4. Who said the X3-45 was "designed" as a line-haul bus? Perhaps designers had that in mind, but that doesn't mean it was designed specifically for line-haul. And many companies do use the J4500 for line-haul with mixed success. The J was based off the E, and the E was supposed to replace the D, so it had line-haul in mind.

5. Orleans only operated 1998 DL3's, and did not order any more D's. Though Adirondack does have some old H3-41's in service, I believe. Yes, I said H3-41.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Silversides? Looks cool to me. This looks great: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_984.jpg.

By the way, AFAIK, that 1995 DL3 is still in service, and was supposed to be replaced by the remaining order of D4505's, but that order was suspended for unknown reasons, so they'll still be around for awhile.

 

[railiner]

Adirondack traded in the last of their H3-41's a year ago, and the older H3-40's before that....

The last to go were 62962 and 62964, which were wheelchair lift equipped...

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So what are you guys' oldest coaches now?

 

[railiner]

We have a few 1998 H3-45's still running, followed by our XL-II's, and our J4500's....we have already traded in several J's....

 

[rickycourtney]

1. Robert Moore and other bus mechanics, plus charter bus owner Eric, and Prevost enthusiast Derek, have all said it was deigned s a motorhome, not a line-haul bus. Think of it, the X3-45 was revised from the XL-II in 2005, or maybe 2004. In 2005, Prevost had barely any market share of line-hauls, and barely any of their production was for line-hauls. OTOH, they had massive shares of the motorhome market, every motorhome owner aspired to own a Prevost.

No, I want a real citation... not a list of some non-notable people. I've never seen an article in a trade publication that says the "X3-45 was not designed for line-haul service. It was designed as a motorhome."
Here's a fun fact: Prevost has been building buses since 1924. Here's another fun fact: the aforementioned Orléans Express at one point rostered Prevost Champion's built in 1976.

I don't have a dog in this fight... but I think you're being unfair.

2. Yeah, all vehicles have complicated electronics. Prevost have the most complicated electronics.

Again... [citation needed]

Also, Kit never said the Denver mechanics "didn't know" how to fix them, he said they "couldn't" fix them. Perhaps Denver was not stocked with Prevost parts. Or perhaps the bus was simply not going to fixed without LOTS of trouble. And Kit said the bus log has complaints from Philadelphia. They could have fixed it before running all the way out west, I mean, there's plenty of Greyhound based from Saint Louis and Denver. They didn't do that. BTW, Greyhound does not run between Chicago and Denver, they only go through Saint Louis.

If the bus couldn't be fixed, why did Denver put it back on the road?If it wasn't fixed in St. Louis, why was it put back on the road?

If it wasn't fixed in Philadelphia, why was it put back on the road?

Again back to my point, it sounds like Greyhound needs some retraining for its mechanics... including telling them to not put a broken bus out on the road.

3. Yeah, IFS can last a long time. Prevosts can last a million miles. More? I doubt it. That new #86284 already had a rubber strap hanging off the undercarriage. You can blame Greyhound, but is a new bus supposed to have that happen already? And the X3-45 is supposed to ride "smooth as silk", well, not #86284. As I said from my immediate post after returning, the coach did not ride better than the D4505 #86307 which I took the other way. Moreover, that D4505 was beat-up with heavy wear in the lavatory, armrests, seat covers, etc.

I know nothing about IFS so I will stay out of that discussion.But I will say the 2009 X3-45 I took just a few weeks ago did ride as "smooth as silk." I guess your mileage (including personal perceptions and prejudices) may vary.

4. Who said the X3-45 was "designed" as a line-haul bus? Perhaps designers had that in mind, but that doesn't mean it was designed specifically for line-haul. And many companies do use the J4500 for line-haul with mixed success. The J was based off the E, and the E was supposed to replace the D, so it had line-haul in mind.

According to you... Prevost did:

Prevost themselves also say the the X3-45 is designed for line-haul, H3-45 is designed for touring.

In METRO Magazine, Prevost says that they worked with Greyhound to design the X3-45 for its line-haul fleet:

“We worked with Greyhound to design a vehicle with lots of innovations plus an array of safety features that exceed the most stringent industry standards,” said Gaétan Bolduc, president/CEO of Prevost.

In the brochure for the X3-45 it's described as a "premium intercity coach."

Need anymore citations?

5. Orleans only operated 1998 DL3's, and did not order any more D's. Though Adirondack does have some old H3-41's in service, I believe. Yes, I said H3-41.

Still my point remains, Orléans Express has retired every bus over 10 years old. So therefore their retirement of Prevost buses proves NOTHING about the quality of Prevost buses.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Prevost has the most complicated electronics of any vehicle? More complicated than the Volkswagen Phaeton and Bentley Continental? Those have headlamp washers with computers that measure the light output of the individual headlamps and wash one lamp and then the other while maintaining 80% of regular light output by temporarily overpowering the lamp being washed.

Or the Mercedes-Benz W222 S-class which not only has adaptive braking, adaptive cruise control, four zone adaptive climate control with perfuming, fully adaptive road sensing suspension that ELIMINATES all bumps the car deems you do not need to feel (it will, for instance, transmit speed bumps or rumble strips), and active parking, but can actively follow the car in front of if without driver inprut.

Do you really think the Prevost has a fraction of that computer and electronic complexity?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

We'll have to agree to disagree. But to me, X3-45 is overrated. Just like the MC-9. And just like the PD-4501.

That bus was operational, it just had computer problems. Mechanically, it had no problems. That's why Greyhound put back on the road. If they could have fixed it, they would have fixed it. Yet the electronic problems seem to tell me the X3-45 is just another overrated bus. I have not ridden any D with electronic problems, other than the newest D4505's starting #86528. Why does this bus have electronic problems when bet-up pre-rebuild DL3's didn't even have more electronic problems? For that matter, why do the new D4505's have electronic problems?

Realize this: Am I hating on the X3-45? No. It's just overrated. It's just not better than the D4505 anymore because it isn't durable and is not advertised to be durable.

I said the X3-45 was a line-haul coach before riding a damaged and malfunctioning new X3-45. A new line-haul coach should not already be damaged in line-haul service. Yeah, blame it on Greyhound Maintenance again, well Greyhound's CEO is a mechanic himself.

Guess what? 2013 D4505's don't have straps hanging off the underside and other suspension damage. 2013 X3-45's have straps hanging off and suspension damage. Yes, #86246 rode very smoothly. No, #86284 did not ride very smoothly. That means it was likely damaged on the transcon. So you can't use them on the transcon. You can use a D4505 on the transcon without busting the suspension. Not a X3-45. What the heck?

By the way, I already knew Prevost has been building since 1924 and the Champions. I also know the LeMirage was first built in 1967, widened to the LeMirage XL in 1984, later extended to the XL-45, then improved versions XL-II and X3-45 (aka XL-III). No, I did not just look that up. I'm obviously not a Prevost hater, however, I am disappointed in the X3-45 just like I was with the D4505. IMO, older coaches are better except for emissions.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Hey, let's discuss the Sacramento-Portland instead. Next three runs all sold out or close to it. I'm thinking it is indeed sold out all the time, because Greyhound online booking closes two hours before departure, and every run on that route closes at high bucket. I'm thinking 80% full off online booking, or at least 70%. That means walk-ups would fill up the rest of the bus.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

A Greyhound Canada source says the G4500's were bought at $345,000,000. If that is in CAD, then according to 2001 exchange rates, Greyhound US would have purchased each G4500 at only $230,000,000, far lower than the previous source's estimate of $375,000.

Apparently, during MCI's bankruptcy, Laidlaw, then-owner of Greyhound, considered buying shares of MCI to secure supplies of G4500's from Winnipeg, until MCI said the components were busted and the G4500 was dead and a donut.

Floyd Holland apparently insisted the G4500 have MC-9 components and wanted a modern MC-9, essentially. That didn't work. MCI was going to build the coach in Winnipeg, not give it Dina Sahagun, it was going to be like the J4500, a cheaper, simplified E4500, before Floyd's apparent insistence of using MC-9 components.

 

[rickycourtney]

A Greyhound Canada source says the G4500's were bought at $345,000,000. If that is in CAD, then according to 2001 exchange rates, Greyhound US would have purchased each G4500 at only $230,000,000, far lower than the previous source's estimate of $375,000.

[citation needed]

Apparently, during MCI's bankruptcy, Laidlaw, then-owner of Greyhound, considered buying shares of MCI to secure supplies of G4500's from Winnipeg, until MCI said the components were busted and the G4500 was dead and a donut.

Floyd Holland apparently insisted the G4500 have MC-9 components and wanted a modern MC-9, essentially. That didn't work. MCI was going to build the coach in Winnipeg, not give it Dina Sahagun, it was going to be like the J4500, a cheaper, simplified E4500, before Floyd's apparent insistence of using MC-9 components.

I know you've seen this article from National Bus Trader. That's how they describe the G4500:

MCI and Greyhound had already started to talk about a new model in May of 1996. By the time the last MC-12 coach rolled down the MCI assembly line in June of 1999 developments were well underway. Greyhound had tried other models, includ- ing the MCI 102DL3 (now D4500), with some success but wanted something more attuned to their needs. The result was a meeting of the minds with Floyd Holland heading the Greyhound operating and maintenance team out of Dallas, Texas, and Virgil Hoogestraat heading the MCI engineering team out of Roswell, New Mexico.

Greyhound initially wanted something simple such as the MC-9 with durability and low operating costs. However, as the development process went on, appearance and styling become more and more of a factor. Virgil Hoogestraat and the MCI engineers effectively started off with componentry and systems similar to the D model because of its durability, reliability, and low operating cost. These were simplified in many areas for Greyhound including a fixed tag axle and a simplified engine cooling system. In some areas the MCI engineers improved on the D model such as increased stainless steel and the “filter minder” and other gauges, sensors and maintenance-friendly design of the engine compartment.

To this was added some of the styling of the E model. However, even the styling was tempered to suit a line haul coach with less curvature on the entry steps and a less ostentatious window arrangement. It was also decided to manufacture the coach at MCI’s facility in Mexico.

Also, don't hold out hope that Greyhound will ever be buying any buses equipped with Detroit Diesel engines again.

As of 2010, the company no longer sells its engines to companies outside of the Daimler family. That's why Prevost switched to the Volvo D13 engine and MCI switched to the Cummins ISX & ISL.

Edit: I guess Daimler is still allowing MCI to buy Detroit Diesel engines on a limited basis. A 410 hp DD13 is an option on the J4500, but the "standard" engine is a 425 hp Cummins ISX. That being said, I don't see Greyhound buying the J4500 and Detroit Diesel engines aren't an option on the D4505.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

However Daimlers marketing agreements with the largely moribund MCI concern would make me think DBAG intends to buy it to get its massive dominance in municipal contracts under its umbrella.

 

[rickycourtney]

However Daimlers marketing agreements with the largely moribund MCI concern would make me think DBAG intends to buy it to get its massive dominance in municipal contracts under its umbrella.

I don't know if I would call MCI moribund... they are without question the dominant name in motorcoaches here in the US.

But MCI is just now getting a real challenge in the municipal contracts realm. Prevost should be just about ready to start production of the X3-45 Commuter Coach in the US. The bus has been on the market since 2011, but it was built in Canada making it ineligible for federal funds. This version will be built in a factory owned by Nova Bus (another Volvo company).

I find the partnership with Daimler awkward. Setra's S 417 and S 407 compete for the same markets as MCI's J4500 and D4500. So MCI is supposed to be marketing a competitors product on an equal basis?

That being said, if Daimler buys MCI it would be high time for them to streamline their branding. Case in point the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter, or is it the Freightliner Sprinter, or maybe it's the Dodge Sprinter.

That being said it could do wonders for the "image" of public transportation in America if buses had big three point star logos on the front and rear. Here in the US that symbol and the Mercedes-Benz name is synonymous with luxury.

For the record, I think that Prevost should do the same. Who know's the name "Prevost" outside of transportation geeks. They should use the much more recognizable Volvo logo and name.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Dodge Sprinter died a death when Fiat initiated it's takeover of the remnants of Chrysler. Fiat Chrysler Aitomobiles sells it's own Eurovan under the name Ram ProMaster, an Americanized Fiat Ducato.

The Freightliner Sprinter is aimed at municipalities who would rather not have a German luxury brand on its work trucks for obvious reasons.

That being said, Daimler is in the process of streamlining its American commercial operation. The fact that the Mercedes branded Sprinter has sold well and has not downgraded its image has, in their own words, been a door opener. After all Mercedes industry leading loyalty and the bulk of its customer base is there because of its nonpariel product quality and long standing history. Despite a hiccup in the mid 90s to mid 2000s, Mercedes is the oldest and best manufacturer of motorized vehicles, without exception.

It's not like the other brands which are just gussied up variations of other cars.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Daimler has shares of MCI, that's why MCI will soon be available with ONLY Detroit 13's! That "partnership" is actually because Daimler bought shares of MCI!

Yeah, I got no citation for that G4500 info, it's just word on the street. Not that I'm really taking it seriously, since that coach is long out of production.

Also, the last MC-12 was built in 1998, not 1999. NBT was misguided in their article by MCI and Greyhound publicity. Obviously, NBT overrated the G4500. In fact, coach owners say they went to the UMA Expo in 2001, at Atlantic City, and were introduced to the G4500. But the MCI salesmen basically said "buyer beware".

Be careful about new articles, a recent news article says Greyhound has about 1,300 coaches, their registration page on Texas DMV listed 1554 units.

 

[rickycourtney]

Daimler has shares of MCI, that's why MCI will soon be available with ONLY Detroit 13's! That "partnership" is actually because Daimler bought shares of MCI!

Very interesting. I agree with GML that Daimler may someday buy MCI.

Yeah, I got no citation for that G4500 info, it's just word on the street. Not that I'm really taking it seriously, since that coach is long out of production.

Also, the last MC-12 was built in 1998, not 1999. NBT was misguided in their article by MCI and Greyhound publicity. Obviously, NBT overrated the G4500. In fact, coach owners say they went to the UMA Expo in 2001, at Atlantic City, and were introduced to the G500. But the MCI salesmen basically said "buyer beware".

If that story is true (and I don't doubt that it is) it's pretty funny. Looking at the Wayback Machine... MCI listed the G4500 on its website for years, even after the F series coaches were gone. I'm guessing they built too many and tried to sell off the remaining inventory with limited success.

Be careful about new articles, a recent news article says Greyhound has about 1,300 coaches, their registration page on Texas DMV listed 1554 units.

I think there are likely about 1,300 "Greyhound" buses in the fleet. Remember that BoltBus (and some of the other brands) use Greyhound's operating authority so they're listed on the Texas DMV website. BoltBus alone comprises 103 coaches.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah, but I think in news releases, Greyhound should just say every single bus in the Greyhound US and Canada fleet combined. Do they seriously want to split off BoltBus badly enough that they won't even include their buses as their own?

As far as the G4500 goes, the MCI salesman reportedly said, literally, "Buyer beware, Floyd from Greyhound designed it!"

Also, mechanics say the G4500 jig at Sahagun had a major error, the tag axle was misaligned 4 degrees! True or now, I don't know, but that would explain the G4500 fires (due to friction) and breakdowns, plus that one time the tag axle fell off south of Portland. OTOH, that would also mean better reliability if Greyhound pulled off the axle and replaced it.

Guess what? I found a G4500 for sale: http://www.shopbuses.com/listings/2002-mci-g4500-ch734132. It's a 2002 selling for $87,000 and it's got 710,206 miles on it. What's really shocking, is that if you look at the second photo, taken from the front, one of the beacon lights have been punched out! And there's no wheelchair lift, so probably not an ex-Greyhound. Yeah, BUYER BEWARE!

Edit: Oh guess what? Sacramento-Portland sold out again. Everything tonight and tomorrow morning. Next available 7:00 PM tomorrow, for $109 high fare! Yeah, even if it closes online before selling out, the walk-up will fill up the rest! Next SAC-PUT low bucket: Sept. 3rd! Yeah Greyhound, you need faster service and another run.

 

[rickycourtney]

Yeah, but I think in news releases, Greyhound should just say every single bus in the Greyhound US and Canada fleet combined. Do they seriously want to split off BoltBus badly enough that they won't even include their buses as their own?

I don't see it that way.But BoltBus has a "captive" fleet that's not really a part of Greyhound's fleet. So it makes since that greyhound wouldn't include that in a figure.

Also, I don't think the Greyhound Canada buses are in that number.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

But why not? You have the buses, you might as well tell people you have them, makes you look bigger and look more like the New Greyhound. Yeah, they could just not include GLC, not include Bolt, not include all that, but what good would it do?

By the way, you've never ridden a G4500, but you've ridden J4500, right? The J4500 has the same interior, basically. So now you know what the G4500 interior is like. Hey, the rebuilt G4500 is great, and the restyled J4500 has been known for major improvements, so maybe Greyhound would order it. Northeast buses take lots of corrosion, but the J is fiberglass, so the corrosion problem is pretty much zero. The curb appeal could help against the myriad of competitors in that region: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/38197-peter-pan-bus-lines-2013-mci-j4500-762/.

 

[rickycourtney]

But why not? You have the buses, you might as well tell people you have them, makes you look bigger and look more like the New Greyhound. Yeah, they could just not include GLC, not include Bolt, not include all that, but what good would it do?

I think that's exactly what they ARE doing.I still think a fleet numbering around 1,300 is really impressive.

By the way, you've never ridden a G4500, but you've ridden J4500, right? The J4500 has the same interior, basically. So now you know what the G4500 interior is like. Hey, the rebuilt G4500 is great, and the restyled J4500 has been known for major improvements, so maybe Greyhound would order it. Northeast buses take lots of corrosion, but the J is fiberglass, so the corrosion problem is pretty much zero. The curb appeal could help against the myriad of competitors in that region: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/38197-peter-pan-bus-lines-2013-mci-j4500-762/.

Never been on a G4500 (although I was kind of hoping for a rebuilt one for my trip to Portland) but I have been on quite a few J4500's over the years, and I have never been that impressed with it.
Also the livery on that Peter Pan bus is just awful.