Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

You are mistaken, the 102DL3 is still in production as the D4500CL (NOT the D4500CT).

I'm pretty sure the D4500CL is out of production, replaced by the D4500CT. But there's not much difference between the two models. The letters only refer to the styling (CL= CLassic, CT= ConTemporary) with the CT having the new headlights, rear grille and bonded windows (all things that are standard on the D4505 now).

If you think that Volane's coaches are luxurious....take a look at what money can buy.... http://www.marathoncoach.com/coach--videos

Now if one of those was used on a line run......

Those are some nice coaches. But the company that did the upfitting for Vonlane is Amadas Coach. They also worked on the J4500 buses for Limoliner that runs between Boston and New York (they aren't quite as posh as Vonlane).

Hey, a guy running a charter bus company, Eric Gregory, says the J4500 costs the same as the D4505.

This makes since to me... the J4500 has more bells and whistles, but a lower build quality (fine for charter operators) and the D4500 skips many of the features, but is built a little more durably (for line-haul buses).

 

[rickycourtney]

They have coaches on order to serve both Houston and San Antonio, starting next year. On their Facebook page, they even asked customers to suggest possible custom modifications to these buses.

Their Director of Business Development contacted me about partnering with our company for transportation needs. This is really the market they are targeting.

It seems business is picking up with them. Saturday and Sunday service has been launched along with charter services.

Yes, the published fare is $100 one way. However, they offer an early morning fare to Austin for $40 and a late night to Dallas for $75. When you open an account, there is access to some $85 fares. Included are free drinks, snacks, and computer accessories, such as mouse, flash drives,etc. for use.

I wish them the best of luck!

I think it was smart move going with hotels for stops. Like the other curbside operators they skip the expense of building stations, but unlike other curbside operators you can offer much better services to customers. On Vonlane's Facebook page they say that each hotel has a nice lobby with seating, a restaurant/bar, parking (valet & self-park) and offers discounts to Vonlane passengers.

 

[railiner]

I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).

But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.

 

[RichardK]

I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).

But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.

I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).

But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.

This has to be good business for the hotel, when potential guests are dropped right at your front door. In return, Vonlane passengers get free parking and a waiting room.

Vonlane is not competing with Greyhound or Megabus anyway. Their competition is Southwest Airlines. A walk up fare at Southwest is a minimum of $215 to Austin. The travel time is roughly equivalent if you consider time spent parking at the airport, going through security and getting back into town from the airport. With Vonlane you can get there 5 minutes before departure and just walk on.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Ricky, I was just in Denver, and rode a bunch of brand-new D4500CL's, not D4500CT's. Yeah, it's still in production, but not listed on MCI's website because they are barely different from the D4500CT.

AFAIK, the "vanilla" J4500 doesn't have a lot more bells or whistles than the D4505, hence the similar price. Yeah, a few more, not a lot more. The H3-45 must have a ton.

 

[rickycourtney]

Okay touché. Those are 2013 D4500CL's. But according to MCI there's not much difference between the D4500CL and the D4500CT:

The 'CT' in the new D4500CT model stands for 'Contemporary'. It is an option package that blends some of the esthetic exterior updates of the D4505 with many of the functional attributes of the traditional D4500CL. The CT version adds the revised lower front fascia, projector headlamps, and LED turn signals along with the frameless sash, disc brakes, and six-wheel ABS from the D4505 to the traditional D coach.

Michael Melaniphy from MCI says, "This combination has been especially popular with both line-haul and commuter coach operators who want to combine the fresh look of the D4505 while retaining the full-size destination sign, rugged five-MPH front bumper, flexible rubber fenders and durable rubber lower rub rails."

 

[rickycourtney]

I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).

But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.

I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).

But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.

This has to be good business for the hotel, when potential guests are dropped right at your front door. In return, Vonlane passengers get free parking and a waiting room. Vonlane is not competing with Greyhound or Megabus anyway. Their competition is Southwest Airlines. A walk up fare at Southwest is a minimum of $215 to Austin. The travel time is roughly equivalent if you consider time spent parking at the airport, going through security and getting back into town from the airport. With Vonlane you can get there 5 minutes before departure and just walk on.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's a total win-win for both companies.

On the departures end the hotel gets to charge for parking (only the Dallas hotel offers free parking, it's in a non-secured lot) and if passengers arrive early they might grab a bite to eat or a drink at the restaurant.

On the arrivals end the hotel gets a bus load of potential, high value customers.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

You just backed-up my point that the "DL3" is still in production, not exactly the same, but pretty close. See, this is why I think Greyhound should order the D4500CL or CT with Detroit 13. MCI has the full capability to build intercity-spec D4500CT's at the same cost as Greyhound's newest D4505's.

I actually heard the smaller original headlights (dual halogens) are better for "night driving in the mountains".

Also, the Denver RTD D4500CL's have sedan doors. And the YARTS D4500CT's have lavatories. MCI's website shows they are available with video systems, enclosed parcel racks, and everything else Greyhound might want in an intercity coach.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Swabian, given the potential size of a Greyhound order, they can probably get whatever they want.

 

[rickycourtney]

GML is right. Greyhound is really the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to purchasing motorcoaches. I can't think of any other operator in America who buys more. They can really get anything they want.

That being said... the company has spent the last few years buying buses in a "panic mode". They had to have enough wheelchair lift equipped buses on the roster to run all the routes and comply with the ADA. they took what the manufacturers could quickly build. They may have been skipping certain options (they would have otherwise ordered) to get the buses off the assembly lines faster.

But it sounds like the difference between the D4500CL (102DL3) and the D4505 boils down to this:

new front and rear fascia

projector headlamps

LED turn signals

frameless windows

disc brakes

six-wheel ABS

fiberglass color matched bumper, fenders and lower rub rails

Those are mostly aesthetic differences... not mechanical. Therefore there shouldn't be any big changes to the way the bus rides, sounds or operates. What has changed that is the motors. EPA regulations make it impossible to use the 102DL3's motor in a D4505 or a brand new D4500. So no matter what... that's gone and it's never coming back.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

You forgot a few, Ricky. The D4505 comes with a higher passenger deck, less fuel capacity, and for the 2014 model year, MCI "improved" the suspension which ended up causing more problems for Greyhound's 86500-series after #86527.

Anyways, Burlington Trailways has switched from ordering D4505's to ordering Restyled J4500's. Likewise, they currently use brand-new plain-white J4500's on line haul into Denver. Peter Pan is doing the same. Perhaps MCI improved the old J4500 with the new design, like new electronics, but tried to put the same features in the D4505, and made it worse. Like you said, they cost the same due to each having its own advantages, but did MCI ruin the D4505 by trying to make it more like a J4500?

So Greyhound could test the Restyled J4500 and see what happens, now that the fleet shortage has been largely alleviated.

Of course Greyhound is still packed out of Denver and needs some short-hauls out of that city to deal with regional passengers, and they are packed on the Sacramento-Portland and Los Angeles-Phoenix, among others. Capacity boosts are needed because ridership is going up and capacity went down due to increased legroom and ADA-incompliance.

Again, Greyhound dropped fares on Sacramento-Portland, even though that route is sold out all the time. For some reason, they are not sold out today.

Does the J4500 or D4500CL/CT have a place in Greyhound's future fleet? Let's see.

 

[railiner]

Swadian, I think you got that reversed...the D4505 'passenger deck' is the same height as the D4500, DL-3, or any other variation of the "D"....

the "J" has the higher passenger deck....

 

[rickycourtney]

You forgot a few, Ricky. The D4505 comes with a higher passenger deck, less fuel capacity, and for the 2014 model year, MCI "improved" the suspension which ended up causing more problems for Greyhound's 86500-series after #86527.

The D4500 and the D4505 both have an overall height of 137 inches and an interior height of 78.25 inches. The D4500 and the D4505 both have 173 gallon fuel tanks (164 usable).

MCI doesn't offer specifics about what suspension systems they use on each bus.

Again, Greyhound dropped fares on Sacramento-Portland, even though that route is sold out all the time. For some reason, they are not sold out today.

So I guess it's not sold out all the time.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Why can't you use the last 9 gallons? I remember on my truck you could use all but about half a gallon from either tank. Is MCI really nutty enough to use a single tank system?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Hmm, but the old D4500 spec sheet from 2000: https://web.archive.org/web/20010816223715/http://www.mcicoach.com/tourdseries.html.

Even in 2007: https://web.archive.org/web/20070416112951/http://www.mcicoach.com/NewCoaches/PublicCoaches/publicCommuter.htm.

Interior height: 82 inches. NOT 78.25 inches.

But by 2010: https://web.archive.org/web/20100213025755/http://www.mcicoach.com/newcoaches/publiccoaches/publicCommuter.htm.

MCI, what did you do again?

 

[rickycourtney]

They raised the passenger deck 3.75 inches and in turn added 98 cubic feet of volume to the luggage compartments.

But it's become the major difference between the X3-45 and the D4500/D4505...

The X3-45 is shorter overall, but has the industry's best floor-to-ceiling height (80 inches) and while its luggage bays are shorter, since the wheelbase is so long they have the largest surface area of any coach (Prevost claims less need to stack bags).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah, but the other major difference is that the X3-45 has a complicated computer that requires special training to maintain. The Greyhound mechanics in Denver don't even know how to fix it, so the computer went haywire and the HVAC kept going cold. So the X3-45 is not good for long-haul routes, because if something fails, what are your going to do?

And by the way, Orleans did retire their 2005 Prevosts, so they are definitely not as durable as MCIs. Who retires a 2005 MCI?

AFAIK, the D4505 does not have a multiplexed electronic system. Mechanics say the D is always easier to fix than a E, J, H, X, etc.

 

[rickycourtney]

Both the D4505 and D4500 have a "fully multiplexed solid-state electrical system" just like the X3-45.

If the Denver garage doesn't know how to maintain a bus that comprises over 25% of the fleet... it sounds like Greyhound is doing a lousy job training (or retraining) its mechanics.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Perhaps so. But read this discussion: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/29209-prevost-car-x3-45-discussion/.

Yeah, not as durable as MCI. That's why it costs the same even though they were supposed to be "better" due to wheelbase, maneuverability, etc..

And read this thread on GTE: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/greyhoundthroughexpress/conversations/topics/39861.

Last post regarding IFS. Prevost has IFS, MCI don't. IFS allows maneuverability with a long wheelbase, but it also greatly increase maint cost. I guess that's why #86284 was riding rough in the front row.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm not sure what that topic demonstrates.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Comparing a bus that was built for commuter service for NYC isn't the same as tearing up the highways across America 24/7. That's like comparing an Genesis being used by Metro North to Amtrak's Genesis locomotives. Completely different scenarios there in both cases.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah, but as far as I know, IFS is not favored by anyone right now. And remember, the X3-45 was not designed for line-haul service. It was designed as a motorhome. It has complicated electronics that gets everyone confused, even veteran drivers. I'm thinking the X3-45 is almost a J4500 with steel instead of fiberglass and a lower passenger deck, lower height in general. Of course it's favored by drivers over the J because of the smooth ride and nice cab. But then there's people that swear by the J and swear by the D, hell, there's people that swear by the G4500.

But guess what? Orleans retired their 2005 Prevosts.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Another Greyhound article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/us/at-100-greyhound-rolls-back-toward-hipness.html?_r=0.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

IFS is quite capable of massive mileage sand weights, as demonstrated by, for example, the Humvee and the general Ford Twin-I-Beam.

Meanwhile ALL vehicles now have complicated electronics for self diagnosis, maintenance, and regulation of onboard systems. The inability of Greyhound to hire and train computer literate and competent mechanics is not a reflection of the busses design. It may explain other things.

According to numerous sources, for instance, MB's upgrading their vehicles to multiplex CAN-BUS systems has increased MTBF, reduced repair time and cost, and improved par function of onboard systems.

 

[railiner]

They raised the passenger deck 3.75 inches and in turn added 98 cubic feet of volume to the luggage compartments.

Live and learn....I wasn't aware of that....