And Kansas City, Mo. voters decisively rejected a huge funding bill this spring, months after the Chiefs won another Super Bowl. Not taking the hint, Kansas City, Kan. politicians are now sniffing around with proposals to lure the Chiefs and Royals across the state line which would leave a multi-billion dollar sports complex in Missouri without tenants.
Greyhound sounding Chicago alarm
- Thread starter NorthShore
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Yes, the PA Bus Terminal is way better than that of many other cities, but it is a very important part of the daily commute for thousands, and it is "functionally obsolete" It has areas that just can't handle artics, and 102" (now the norm) don't help either. Battery charging will need to be included as well. Also, some buses that should be there use the streets, the capacity is not there. Glad to see the project move forward.
NorthShore
Conductor
A wonderful piece of writing, solid journalism, filled with character from real world passenger perspective.
It, definitely, paints a certain picture and viewpoint (which I'm not convinced is accurate to the whole, but definitely represents a significant element of the intercity bus riding experience.)
Is saying, "...unless the city buys the Greyhound station, or immediately opens another, this winter we’re going to have a lot of poor folks waiting in the cold for buses, like figures in a black-and-white photo from the Depression," a bit much? Or is it, simply, a recognition of reality? Is this an opportunity (or a challenge) for some all night Dunkin' or 7-11?
And highlighting a stat from the study noting, "More than a quarter would not have made the trip if bus service were not available,” as an income issue ignores that this means over 70 percent of passengers might well and are, to some degree, choosing the bus.
Still 55 buses daily is a LOT to attempt accommodating elsewhere.
https://www.chicagomag.com/city-life/chicago-is-giving-greyhound-passengers-the-cold-shoulder/
It, definitely, paints a certain picture and viewpoint (which I'm not convinced is accurate to the whole, but definitely represents a significant element of the intercity bus riding experience.)
Is saying, "...unless the city buys the Greyhound station, or immediately opens another, this winter we’re going to have a lot of poor folks waiting in the cold for buses, like figures in a black-and-white photo from the Depression," a bit much? Or is it, simply, a recognition of reality? Is this an opportunity (or a challenge) for some all night Dunkin' or 7-11?
And highlighting a stat from the study noting, "More than a quarter would not have made the trip if bus service were not available,” as an income issue ignores that this means over 70 percent of passengers might well and are, to some degree, choosing the bus.
Still 55 buses daily is a LOT to attempt accommodating elsewhere.
https://www.chicagomag.com/city-life/chicago-is-giving-greyhound-passengers-the-cold-shoulder/
AFS1970
Service Attendant
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- Jan 3, 2016
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- 176
Like with a lot of transportation issue this is going to boil down to just who is responsible for transportation. Greyhound (Now Flix) is a private company and has made a series of bad business decisions. Now they come to the government and ask what the city is going to do to bail them out of the mess they created. Yes, this is somewhat similar to sports stadiums, but is the answer to fixing that problem to do more of the same?
MegaBus & Bolt Bus were started with the idea of being lower cost alternatives to what is almost always the lowest cost option for intercity travel. One of their basic ideas was curbside stops to avoid renting terminal space. I have used Bolt a few times and it is rarely convenient. Flix is using the same model in a lot of places, so if the city buys this station what stops greyhound/flix from leaving and saddling the city with a vacant transit hub, kind of like a stadium after the team moves?
MegaBus & Bolt Bus were started with the idea of being lower cost alternatives to what is almost always the lowest cost option for intercity travel. One of their basic ideas was curbside stops to avoid renting terminal space. I have used Bolt a few times and it is rarely convenient. Flix is using the same model in a lot of places, so if the city buys this station what stops greyhound/flix from leaving and saddling the city with a vacant transit hub, kind of like a stadium after the team moves?
I would think building a bus station on the south side near 95th street or at Midway would be better than at O’Hare. Those locations would better meet the needs of people who are usually taking the bus. Regardless of the location the City of Chicago needs to get it together.
Even though Kansas and Missouri signed a pact just a few years back banning this type of competition, a group of business people and politicians in Kansas are actively pushing this 'lose-lose' scenario that only hurts taxpayers.
Cal H
Train Attendant
Our recent experience…
In mid July we hopped off the LSL in Toledo. Headed to Columbus, there were no buses until much later in the day. We rented a car and drove down and were there shortly after lunch.
Leaving Columbus a few days later for Chicago to catch the CONO, we didn’t want to drive or fly. We caught a Flix bus. The timing was very good for us, boarded about 10:30 AM and off at the Chicago bus terminal around 4:00 PM. Four hours to walk the 3-4 blocks to Union Station and grab a bite along the way. Didn’t work quite that way as it was raining pretty heavy when we got to the bus depot.
The bus trip itself was better than expected. The bus was clean, we stopped about every hour to 1 1/2 hours with time given for everyone who wanted to get off and get a bite to eat. Movies were shown the whole distance. I cannot recall anyone on the bus that I would have called a vagrant, or even down on their luck - and the bus was pretty much full most all way. The driver was super nice & friendly. I would not hesitate to take the trip again. We had three options & that was our first pick.
I was surprised then (not after this thread) that of all the stops to pick up & drop off passengers, I can only recall two that were at a bus terminal. I am not sure what we would have chosen if the bus terminal was not so close to Union Station. It’s easy to say board the L and take it here or there, but if you are not familiar with the L that can be a bit daunting.
In mid July we hopped off the LSL in Toledo. Headed to Columbus, there were no buses until much later in the day. We rented a car and drove down and were there shortly after lunch.
Leaving Columbus a few days later for Chicago to catch the CONO, we didn’t want to drive or fly. We caught a Flix bus. The timing was very good for us, boarded about 10:30 AM and off at the Chicago bus terminal around 4:00 PM. Four hours to walk the 3-4 blocks to Union Station and grab a bite along the way. Didn’t work quite that way as it was raining pretty heavy when we got to the bus depot.
The bus trip itself was better than expected. The bus was clean, we stopped about every hour to 1 1/2 hours with time given for everyone who wanted to get off and get a bite to eat. Movies were shown the whole distance. I cannot recall anyone on the bus that I would have called a vagrant, or even down on their luck - and the bus was pretty much full most all way. The driver was super nice & friendly. I would not hesitate to take the trip again. We had three options & that was our first pick.
I was surprised then (not after this thread) that of all the stops to pick up & drop off passengers, I can only recall two that were at a bus terminal. I am not sure what we would have chosen if the bus terminal was not so close to Union Station. It’s easy to say board the L and take it here or there, but if you are not familiar with the L that can be a bit daunting.
crescent-zephyr
Engineer
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2015
- Messages
- 4,796
Taking the L from O'hare is more than daunting - that's a long ride! I'll also say that I have become increasingly annoyed with how cities don't really think about how people use transit. You have trains to and from the airport but don't think about how people will have luggage with them making navigating stairs, turnstiles, etc. very difficult.
This goes along with "transportation infrastructure" which nobody wants to pay for - but many stations on the L (both the actual L and the CTA underground) do not have escalators/elevators. For example - only 1 downtown station on the Blue Line (O'hare) is handicap accessible.
Could that have been the Cardinal?
Greyhound and its series of owners made the mistakes. Flix knew what the situation was when they went into it. In a hard-nosed way they are teaching Americans how to do business their way, with municipalities providing bus stations. They lost some time due to the Covid pandemic, and they lost some of their new office staff to other jobs during that shutdown. Now they're just working their way through the terminal cities: Denver and Las Vegas stations have been replaced by gates in public transit stations, other places like Portland have transcontinental connections on street corners. Chicago is a bigger nut to crack.
2014 - Berlin's Cold War municipal terminal.
2015 - Portland, Greyhound was in a modern station across the street from Union Station.
2018 - Krakow, Flixbus loads at the municipal terminal, adjacent to the main train station.
2023 - Portland. The cars are parked in the bus zone. The Union Station baggage room is behind the camera. Rail and bus passengers can look at each other through the fence. Some departures to Seattle are simultaneous.
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One of the first uses of a major rail station’s as an intermodal terminal, was in New Orleans. Shortly after Amtrak began, a couple of now redundant tracks were removed, and a series of bus loading bays were built, to accommodate Greyhound, who moved from their early sixties terminal into the 1954 built NOUPT. Greyhound had their own ticket counters, baggage and package express rooms, and IIRC, operated a Post House cafeteria. Without Greyhound, that would have been a “white elephant” for Amtrak’s two daily, and one tri-weekly departures…
The New Orleans station is fairly handsome, reflecting the modern midcentury design of its origin, but to my eyes, the most beautiful of all now intermodal terminals, is the Gare du Palais, in Quebec City, which was completely restored a few years back, and a modern bus concourse with restaurants and other retail shops added on…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_du_Palais
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_du_Palais
NorthShore
Conductor
Also Clark/Lake. But, point well taken. When these stations were built in the 1940s the societal situation was different, as well as how and why people rode transit. Though there is an L station two blocks from Union Station, perhaps no one ever thought of connections people might make there for intercity travel. I guess they assumed you wouldn't bring along an old handlebar suitcase, but take a cab. And retrofitting old infrastucture to ADA standards is often practically difficult and costly. So it sits undone, even though such would offer an even wider ridership ease. When the L was extended to O'Hare, maybe it was assumed that this would serve employees more than airline travelers. All I recall of the old express bus which pre-existed it is how crowded it was.
I think this takes things full circle with the current crisis concerning an intercity bus station. Is anyone asking the right questions, beyond where the terminal will be? Who are the passengers, where are they going or coming from? What are their needs? How might complementary businesses nearby support and profit from such? How do they affect the local ecomony? Who else might ride and under what circumstances? What kind of connections are they trying to make from where to where?
Just saying, "We have a station!" or "You can board/alight here," isn't enough.
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NorthShore
Conductor
I like this analogy. But, I think it's a bit more like the airline bailout.
I suppose that this needs to be viewed in terms of an urban infrastructure investment, which can benefit the city more than just the businesses which will use it. Though, I suppose the city could also fight back a bit by regulating where buses can and can not pick up and drop off passengers. If it's too much hassle, the bus opetators need to determine whether it's worth stopping in the city at all. Really, I don't think that they care where that is, unless it becomes unprofitable. I've been an advocate of a Chicago facilities surcharge on bus tickets; sort of like a gate charge for plane passengers to assist on covering service costs of managing a Chicago facility and operations.
Back in 1973 I took the Broadway Limited home from college for term break. But first, I had to ride Greyhound from Beloit, Wisconsin to the modernist Greyhound terminal they used to have near Clark/Lake/Randolph. I was carrying a large backpack and a reel to reel tape recorder that must have weighed 20 pounds. Not sure why I used to schlep that thing home for vacation, but I did. If I only had the backpack, I might have walked from the Greyhound terminal to Union Station, but with that d**n tape recorder, I just bit the bullet and took a cab.
Apparently, nowadays, there's a Van Galder bus from Beloit that runs right to Union Station which can be booked as am Amtrak Thruway bus. Not sure whether Greyhound runs through Beloit anymore.
Apparently, nowadays, there's a Van Galder bus from Beloit that runs right to Union Station which can be booked as am Amtrak Thruway bus. Not sure whether Greyhound runs through Beloit anymore.
Note this is how Amtrak is doing it these days. If a city wants a stop, or a better stop (recalling the "Beaumont Slab"), they have to pay for it. Amtrak pretty much isn't doing new stations.
NorthShore
Conductor
There are LOTS of regional bus services in the Chicago area, often to nearby smaller cities in Illinois and neighboring states, from O'Hare and Midway. Some even serve areas like suburban Woodfield Mall, as they are primarily shuttling college students to their university towns from their parents' homes. While some of these buses stop or terminate downtown, others don't. Others serve commuting workers, such as the daily rush hour service between downtown Chicago abd Valparaiso, Indiana.
Here is where I might see only a certain number of the buses currently terminating at the Greyhound station making a stop at Union Station to make Amtrak connections, with the rest serving a terminal at O'Hare or outlying stations, such as the current south side stop some buses make at 95th and the Red Line. Such could actually increase easily available connections to other regional bus service from Chicago, which isn't necessarily downtown based.
That was a very nice underground terminal, built in 1953, and very similar to the one built a few years later in Penn Center, Philadelphia. All traces of both were obliterated by new high rise office towers on very expensive real estate…
I saw this article on transportation and it has some ideas about the importance of bus transportation in making last-mile connections.
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...n-t-blame-cars?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us
"A bus that comes once and hour, stops at 7 pm, and doesn’t run on Sundays—a typical service level in many American cities—restricts people’s lives so much that anyone who can drive, will drive. That keeps ridership per capita low."
"maps that show the present-day network rail and bus lines operating at least every 30 minutes, all day to midnight, seven days a week, for five urban areas in the U.S. and one in Canada for comparison. That could be considered the bare-minimum service level required for people to be able to live adequately car free. In fact, research says that frequencies of 15 minutes or better—good enough for people to turn up and go without consulting a schedule—are where the biggest jumps in ridership happen. But that is so far off from service levels in most American cities that a 30-minute standard is more appropriate."
NorthShore
Conductor
Columbus, a major city, looks so so sad. I was surprised this Spring, when visiting Indianapolis for the eclipse, that I couldn't get back to my neighborhood Airbnb (near a university) on the bus I took for sightseeing downtown because it was a quarter after 9 on a Sunday night. I had to Uber it back. This sort of "Nine O'clock" service (common in many cities) bufuddles me since you can't effectively use it to go out on the town anywhere and get home. But, at least, they have Sunday transit service, which many cities don't.
This gets at the underlying idea that public transit is nothing more than a transportation service of last resort for those without more adequate means. Which, of course, is how we're talking about intercity bus services, also. It doesn't need to be that way, of course. Transit can be a common form of transportation available for all, and used by many of various economic class. Maybe intercity bus service won't ever be quite that diverse. But it doesn't have to be limited to how it is often viewed and approached.
In fact, even Greyhound attempted to understand what might work, when their practical monopoly got challenged by Megabus. In Chicago, they would send out representatives daily to assess passenger count and clientele of Megabus operations, trying to figure out what they needed to do in order to attract these people who were choosing to ride a system other than their own. It's what led to a lot of changes at the time, though not necessarily for the better. Greyhound should have considered their image and public impressions, as well as what did or could help them differentiate and advertise towards such as a preferable option. Instead, they essentially cut and advertised it as improvement, for such things as schedule speed. Bad management, ultimately, led to the sort of least common denominator mess we have today.
It's a costly self fulfilling defeatest attitude.
Very much agree with your sentiments, bus travel often supplies a fantastic service that train or plane can't or wont provide.
cirdan
Engineer
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2011
- Messages
- 3,863
One problem is that bus stations the world over seem to be magnets for panhandlers and other antisocial elements. They are often also poorly designed by mediocre architects with lots of concrete and dark corners. This weighs negatively not just on the bus station itself but on surrounding businesses and streets. No wonder the businesses and residents not directly benefitting from the bus station are happy to see it go. For bus stations to be perceived as an asset rather than a liability this needs to change. They need to be managed in a way that makes them pleasant for the average traveler, with an upbeat and pleasant design that makes people enjoy being there, and range of facilities and different kinds of shops and eateries as you can find in major rail stations and airports.
NorthShore
Conductor
Another challenge is that they tend to get placed in areas which aren't always the greatest for economic development around them. Take the current Greyhound station in Chicago, for example, in what was once a sort of isolated industrial area. So, there really was nothing much around there. Now that the neighborhood has been getting redeveloped, not only is the land a prime target for fancy condos or whatever, but the clientele are considered undesirable by the community and for increased urban renewal.
I visited the other night, perhaps one last time, since I happened to be nearby. And, to your point, I got the expected harassment by street sales sharks and cabbies out in front of the main entrance/exit doors. (Though, at least I now know where one can still actually find a real taxi in the city, at least for a few more weeks ) The sort of treatment which is disconcerting and annoying to a hardened local (who some years ago discovered that it can be avoided by using the bus arrivals door, instead. Though, even that route once served as a fast escape for a couple of criminals who attempted to pick the pocket of a friend before I loudly called them out.) If I'm bothered by this bad behavior, how's someone visiting town or just trying to take a nice trip going to feel? Will such an environment also be transported to Union Station come October? If so, Amtrak and CTA, whose facilities will be affected, have good reason to object.
In my little time there that night, I looked upon the faces seated in a full waiting room. I think I'll remember them, always. Many seemed to be struggling... with whatever their individual stories could tell. And, on my own way home, I, sincerely, prayed for them; that they would have a safe and happy journey to wherever they are heading with hope in life. For, while not on the same trip, I also am a fellow traveler who has taken the bus.
Taking this a step further I know people who look down on train travel as they only fly or are driven everywhere... not everyone would agree with that view.
Two examples of excellent Amtrak plus bus stations are Bloomington/Normal and Champaign/Urbana in IL. They are roomy, clean, well-designed, and well-used. The former is quite new, and the latter is well remodeled.
