Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement RFP discussion H1 2024

[user 14106]

Agreed, sightseer lounge is already a great design. No need to fix what isn't broken.

The biggest problem with the sightseers is the same problem with every superliner - accessibility. Unfortunately some changes will be inevitable to accomplish the accessibility goals.

Jis, as always, your posts are informative and helpful. This explains why I am looking at significantly higher sleeper fares for a trip on the CZ in June. IMHO, things are only going to get worse because there is no apparent evidence that Amtrak can make short-term adjustments to correct this.

It will be an impossible task to maintain the current number of cars in service. It is only a matter of time before there is another derailment that removes more cars from service.

Unfortunately some of that is politics. While Amtrak certainly has responsibility for the availability ratio of the present equipment Gardner is certainly correct that sufficient funding for a long term solution was not available until the IIJA. While I share Tilley’s concerns about finding a way to bridge the gap, there are flaws with all of his five solutions especially if he is proposing them as an alternative to the replacement fleet (which I can’t totally tell from his initial letter if that’s his intent.) I fundamentally disagree with the idea of a rebuild in lieu of new equipment. It ignores the accessibility issues and would further constrain the fleet during the rebuild program and it just kicks the problem down the road. I think Amtrak needs to continue on with the procurement while looking for other other ways to increase uptime of the available fleet. Things like getting the super liners off the Carbondale route are a critical piece. Perhaps some of the badly damaged equipment does need to be looked at - but certain damage can’t be fixed.

 

[Amtrak25]

I don't think Tilley is calling for rebuilding as an altenative, but knows full well new cars are 10 years off and the national network will not survive that long.

Amtrak also needs to buy off and get Superliners from the Surfliners, and replace with Horizons from Beech Grove or Seattle and/or California cars.

Same is true for the Oklahoma train.

 

[rs9]

The display screens for passenger/conductor info sounds like great technological improvements. Not to be Mr. Negative, but the Siemens Venture Midwest cars also have digital display boards in the coaches. I have yet to see them actually in use (in fairness, this is an anecdotal sample).

 

[nferr]

My favorite part of this is that segmentation of Coach to Business to First feels much clearer with this equipment. AFAIK business class doesn't exist on Amtrak LD currently, and this 2-1 vs 2-2 config seems nice. SoloSuites are a "first class coach" with sleeper class benefits, while the other rooms are First+, ++, and +++.


Agreed, sightseer lounge is already a great design. No need to fix what isn't broken.

I also noticed Figure 1-11: Priority Sleeper (Page 1-14) is likely the wrong schematic, copied over from Figure 1-7: Priority Coach (Page 1-12). Hopefully their execution of the order won't be this sloppy!

The solo suites seem like a lot more than a "first class coach". Each one is a separate room with a full door and a sink. Yes, there's a divider between the two adjoining rooms that can be opened (only if both occupants agree and unlock), but otherwise it's a full solo room with a bed and a window and skylight. Interesting concept, but they're calling it an enhancement over a roomette so I'm thinking it's not going to be a low cost option. Probably a little less than booking a roomette for one.

 

[user 14106]

The solo suites seem like a lot more than a "first class coach". Each one is a separate room with a full door and a sink. Yes, there's a divider between the two adjoining rooms that can be opened (only if both occupants agree and unlock), but otherwise it's a full solo room with a bed and a window and skylight. Interesting concept, but they're calling it an enhancement over a roomette so I'm thinking it's not going to be a low cost option. Probably a little less than booking a roomette for one.

Yes SoloSuite is basically a roomette for one with more space for a single traveler. A step above a roomette not below.

 

[Mailliw]

At least know I have a clearer picture of how the SoloSuites fit together. They do take up less space than 2 Roomettes would, but not by much. Unless I'm missing something the standard sleeping car can only accommodate 36 passengers, which is less than the superliner sleepers we have know. And it seems like a weird decision to increase bedroom occupancy to 4 while reducing the overall number of bedrooms in inventory.

 

[west point]

A comment on the specifications of the proposal. Same clearance diagram as present Superliners. Low level boarding from different heights of platforms, a mention of some kind of filler from car to platform which really did not mean anything like Brightline. Elevator (2) per train set. A train set will be capable of up to 22 cars or 1870 feet of passenger cars. Then up to 35 car carriers for total of 57. Train sets can have more than 22 cars with a degradation of electrical for each car over 22.

That 22 brought up a question of HEP. The cars are to have capacity of 1600 kW. Since ALCs only have 1000Kw output took some digging into the electrical system. First though that these cars might be getting the VIA HEP every other car when running with 2 loco split system but could find no reference. To keep loads down all non essential lighting will be provided by a battery connected to a 3 phase battery charger. If the Charger circuit detects a lowering of # phase 480 AC it will drop out and let battery run lights. Then cut back on when AC available. Battery life as I recall of at least 5 hours.

Many other electrical goodies. system to keep all 3 phases in very close load balances. Door locking and unlocking system. Also, can open & close all doors on a side from any car. Did not find what kind of doors are expected. Full visual passenger information system + a full PA system. Then a third system for wi fi and other items from loco to end of train, Too many specifications all separate from 27 point cable. Full electrical isolation from induced stray electrical when operating under any CAT. Transmit to maintenance as soon as occurring any enroute malfunctions. Only required HEP cables to clear 6 - 7 inches above top of rail and when in curve just above top of rail. That IMO is a mistake.

Modular construction specified many items. Have to be able to remove and replace HVAC system in under 2 hours. Full heat in cars to -30F and reduced to lower temps. Full AC to be able to cool to hottest Phoenix day ( yes that is what it said Phoenix). Electronic braking as well as standard 26L pneumatic. Going to use brake pipe pressure of 110 PSI. Main reservoir pressure of 140 to operate air operated equipment (doors?) and will help recharge each car's main brake reservoir. All air lines plumbed to drain to an automatic purge valve.

Car trucks to be qualified up to class 8 track. Cars tested to that speed but only operationally to 110 MPH. Where in the heck can the cars be tested to that speed? .

Well enough said.

 

[user 14106]

Amtrak also needs to buy off the get Superliners from the Surfliners, and replace with Horizons from Beech Grove or Seattle and/or California cars.

Same is true for the Oklahoma train.

That would help along with the Superliners on the Carbondale route. An improvement in the parts situation (both their internal processes and the supply chain) would probably help with shop counts. Converting the Cap to single level is another approach that could yield a few more cars. While the lighter refresh they are doing doesn’t really extend the life, it’s a way to bridge the gap. The problem with a heavier rebuild approach is that it takes cars out of service for longer when the whole idea is to bridge the gap. It would probably take years to carry out such a program in a manner that doesn’t overly constrain the fleet capacity wise. I do think Tilley is reading too much into the statement about the fleet covering the existing network only. That’s true for the base order, but options will be included for potential network expansion. If something like the north coast Hiawatha moves ahead with funding, they can exercise an option fairly early in the process.

I do think it’s possible the Viewliner refresh could have a larger scope - there is currently decision making ongoing on how to approach the single level fleet and the VL1s seem to be the major decision point. If they make the decision to continue on with Viewliners the refresh may be larger in scope. The two options for the single level fleet are either to go all new everything with a large RFP like they’re doing with the bilevel fleet, or to utilize options they have with Siemens to address the Amfleet 2s and then rehab the VL1s.

 

[PerRock]

The display screens for passenger/conductor info sounds like great technological improvements. Not to be Mr. Negative, but the Siemens Venture Midwest cars also have digital display boards in the coaches. I have yet to see them actually in use (in fairness, this is an anecdotal sample).

The Amfleets used to as well; but Amtrak never really used them & converted them over to static displays saying which end the restrooms are on.

The first Venture ride I did, the crew turned them on late & they remained off (announcing the wrong station, etc) for a few stops before someone fast-forwarded them to be correct. I've now been on Ventures a number of times since & they've all been turned off.

 

[jis]

Car trucks to be qualified up to class 8 track. Cars tested to that speed but only operationally to 110 MPH. Where in the heck can the cars be tested to that speed?

At Pueblo TTC there is a test track for testing upto 165mph, including testing behavior on track imperfections. See...

https://ttc-ensco.com/railway-test-tracks/

 

[joelkfla]

The Priority Sleeper Conceptual diagram is missing. Fig. 1-11, which is labeled as such, contains a copy of the Priority Coach instead.

 

[frequentflyer]

Page 644, So Coach passengers will have Sightseer lounge accommodations?

https://cdn2.imagearchive.com/amtra...e59947c229427db75e8f5e594215d64514c7fecbfa1ba

 

[cocojacoby]

Thanks for these diagrams. It is great to see what Amtrak has in mind. A couple of quick thoughts:

My wife and I have spent many a night in a Viewliner roomette and the one thing that we needed was a bit more floor space. It is a bit tough for two people to maneuver around in that small a space. The elimination of the toilet certainly helps and the fold-up sink helps. Maybe move the trash receptacle to under the sink and have an open floor where the trash is now and have some kind of fold-down steps there. I also feel the loss of the inner wall windows is a mistake. Those windows really open the room up and greatly reduce the claustrophobic feel of the space. The huge outer side windows still allow viewing from the upper berth which is great.

I think Amtrak has created a really nice option with the SoloSuites. It's kind of a Delta One Suite the way it nests together but may actually be more efficient. Of course one downside is half of the seats face backwards but hopefully you will be able to chose a forward facing seat if you want.

The Club bedrooms for up to four are a nice option and eliminate the rattling doors of the old Bedroom Suite option.

The accessible bedroom has gone to a separate enclosed bathroom, instead of having the toilet exposed in the middle of the room, so these can also be sold to non-assessible passengers. That's a good move.

The full width Premium Bedroom is going to be very desirable although the costs will probably be astronomical. The only way to better it would be if it was on the upper floor with skylights but that is not possible.

There seems to be a slight difference with the roof shape in the sleeper cars. Notice the roof lines in the sleepers are more rounded to provide slightly more clearance in the upper bunks. The angled roof would be too confining I guess even though the glass skylights would have been very cool.

The lounge with the seats on only one side is a bit of a strange setup but it's the way they are dealing with the accessibility issue.

A minor issue is that it seems the showers have only hand-held wands that are positioned halfway up the wall. They should have a way to position them higher on the wall so adjustable height shower heads would be more desirable.

I can't tell if the cafes, lounges or diner has skylights from these drawings but that would be a nice design suggested in other drawings. I do have to strongly object to the lack of seating in the coach cafe. Why such few seats? Not really adequate.

Let's see how things develop.

 

[user 14106]

I can't tell if the cafes, lounges or diner has skylights from these drawings but that would be a nice design suggested in other drawings.

Let's see how things develop.

Sounds like they are definitely including skylight windows for the lounge diner and priority coaches - and they’ll be optional in the regular coaches.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The lounge with the seats on only one side is a bit of a strange setup but it's the way they are dealing with the accessibility issue.

There a few food services cars set up in Europe, that have the table and seats on one side. A walkway path down on the other side.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I do have to strongly object to the lack of seating in the coach cafe. Why such few seats? Not really adequate.

Especially when you expect that those few seats will be taken up by the train crew

 

[Mailliw]

The utility car has a dedicated crew lounge and kitchenette. It's a valid point though. The cafe car should have be all cafe seating; especially if coach passengers aren't going to have loung access. Revenue seats on the lower level are a good idea.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The first Venture ride I did, the crew turned them on late & they remained off (announcing the wrong station, etc) for a few stops before someone fast-forwarded them to be correct. I've now been on Ventures a number of times since & they've all been turned off.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone ever tracks or verifies anything Amtrak staff do (or refuse to do) while the train is en route.

The utility car has a dedicated crew lounge and kitchenette. It's a valid point though. The cafe car should have be all cafe seating; especially if coach passengers aren't going to have loung access. Revenue seats on the lower level are a good idea.

Superliners had dedicated crew lounges when delivered but that never stopped the crew from using customer facilities anyway.

 

[railiner]

Superliners had dedicated crew lounges when delivered but that never stopped the crew from using customer facilities anyway.

Not Superliner I’s, that I am aware of, although they oftentimes used the coach seats in the Hi-Level trans-dorm if not needed for group or overload seating.
I believe the Superliner II trans-dorms included a crew lounge…

 

[Steve4031]

Not Superliner I’s, that I am aware of, although they oftentimes used the coach seats in the Hi-Level trans-dorm if not needed for group or overload seating.
I believe the Superliner II trans-dorms included a crew lounge…

It does. There's a table and seats for the crew. I could see why they would sett up in the lounge because that's centrally located.

 

[joelkfla]

Under the proposed layouts, it looks like all rooms except the accessible rooms will have longitudinal sleeping.

 

[GDRRiley]

Amtrak also needs to buy off and get Superliners from the Surfliners, and replace with Horizons from Beech Grove or Seattle and/or California cars.

California is not going to let them go given we paid to rebuild them and they are on a long term lease. We've got 11 coaches and 1 lounge right now. That compares to 19 coaches and 20 lounges inactive .
there aren't enough surfliners and california cars to run as much service as the sate wants. Califorina on its own could eat up the entire horizon fleet with our expansions planned.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

California is not going to let them go given we paid to rebuild them and they are on a long term lease. We've got 11 coaches and 1 lounge right now. That compares to 19 coaches and 20 lounges inactive .
there aren't enough surfliners and california cars to run as much service as the sate wants. Califorina on its own could eat up the entire horizon fleet with our expansions planned.

You’re welcome to the horizon fleet.

Can we trade 3 horizons for a Superliner?

 

[cocojacoby]

Under the proposed layouts, it looks like all rooms except the accessible rooms will have longitudinal sleeping.

That's the way I like it and with those big windows a bed with a view

 

[MARC Rider]

That's the way I like it and with those big windows a bed with a view

Actually, I find it hard to look out the windows when the bed is set up and I'm lying in it trying to sleep. The only exception is the roomette upper bunk in the Viewliners.