Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement RFP discussion H1 2024

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: About a dozen posts on ideas about future Amtrak equipment and not about the current RFP have been moved to a thread more appropriate for such:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/future-amtrak-equipment-and-ada-ideas.83324/

Please continue discussion of future ideas about Amtrak equipment in the thread referred to above and leave this thread for discussion directly related to the RFP.

Thank you for your understanding, participation and cooperation.

 

[Paniolo Man]

As expected, the Stadler people seemed coy about Amtrak. I hope we get news on a preferred vendor sometime this fall. I'd love for sooner news, but this is a big order, they need to take their time.

Does anyone know if the bid window was extended past may?

 

[jis]

MODERATOR’S NOTE: This is a thread on equipment RFP and not on what is happening to the Coast Starlight. Please keep that in mind while posting on this thread. Thanks.

 

[Paniolo Man]

For a lack of anything interesting happening with regards to this topic I submitted a FOIA to get a list of the companies who received the RFP:

6 Car Builders received the solicitation on 12/22/2023. Alstom, Hitachi, Siemens, CAF, Kawasaki and Stadler. These Car Builders were those that not only were qualified, but interested.

 

[thefirewarde]

As expected, the Stadler people seemed coy about Amtrak. I hope we get news on a preferred vendor sometime this fall. I'd love for sooner news, but this is a big order, they need to take their time.

Here's hoping the next iteration of the California Car also shakes out of this LD bid process.

 

[Andrew]

For a lack of anything interesting happening with regards to this topic I submitted a FOIA to get a list of the companies who received the RFP:

View attachment 36868

Thanks for this.

I bet the likely hood (from greatest to least likely to receive the contract) are Siemens, Alstom, Stadler, Kawasaki, Hitachi, and CAF.

But also remember that Siemens is extremely busy with the AIRO order, so maybe they won't win this contract.

 

[jadebenn]

Most likely the FOIA will be redacted for reasons of "commercial sensitivity" or somesuch. But, won't know if we don't try, now will we?

 

[thefirewarde]

I bet the likely hood (from greatest to least likely to receive the contract) are Siemens, Alstom, Stadler, Kawasaki, Hitachi, and CAF.

I would expect Alstom to have a tougher time given their recent performance, compared to Stadler executing several EMU and DMU orders relatively smoothly.

 

[blueman271]

I would expect Alstom to have a tougher time given their recent performance, compared to Stadler executing several EMU and DMU orders relatively smoothly.

Regardless of their performance elsewhere, companies always seem to suffer major delays when it comes to delivering equipment for Amtrak. Even though Stadler may be proficient delivering EMU’s and DMU’s to commuter outfits recent history tells us any Amtrak order they take will be majorly delayed.

 

[thefirewarde]

Alstom is having trouble even on European orders right now, though.

 

[joelkfla]

Regardless of their performance elsewhere, companies always seem to suffer major delays when it comes to delivering equipment for Amtrak. Even though Stadler may be proficient delivering EMU’s and DMU’s to commuter outfits recent history tells us any Amtrak order they take will be majorly delayed.

I think that's to be expected, considering the uniqueness and level of detail of the specs.

 

[GDRRiley]

Here's hoping the next iteration of the California Car also shakes out of this LD bid process.

The state keeps talking about getting a bit fleet of new rolling stock. Will it be based on the LD fleet, completely unrelated or a bunch of hydrogen MUs time will tell.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Something I did hear a lot at Stadler was that a factory expansion is imminent. They plan to build a second production hall and an aluminum carshell welding facility. If they were to win the Amtrak order they'd also have to build a dedicated facility for steel carshells, or contract the work out to a third-party. It would be interesting to see a company who is defined by aluminum trains worldwide take the largest order for steel cars in several decades.

 

[Andrew]

Who do you folks think is more likely to win this contract: Siemens or Stadler? And why?

 

[GDRRiley]

Who do you folks think is more likely to win this contract: Siemens or Stadler? And why?

Siemens has major capacity limitations and I can see amtrak wanting to diversify their fleet some, if the LD fleet was to use a modified venture truck and an issue was found in both having to pull their entire fleet for weeks or months would be bad.

 

[jiml]

Siemens has major capacity limitations and I can see amtrak wanting to diversify their fleet some, if the LD fleet was to use a modified venture truck and an issue was found in both having to pull their entire fleet for weeks or months would be bad.

This makes sense. In addition, Siemens already have enough orders to keep them busy for a very long time despite some planned factory increases. No manufacturer is likely to undertake permanent capacity expansion for an uncertain North American market that could quickly be finite at the whim of governments.

 

[jiml]

The search for bi-level equipment might logically favor manufacturers who have delivered previously to the North American market - including commuter stock. They're included on the FOI list, and don't rule out Alstom despite their recent struggles. It's important to remember that the hierarchy for their high-speed products and North American bi-level equipment is quite separate and their impact in the market is significant, including Superliner II's.

 

[Andrew]

The search for bi-level equipment might logically favor manufacturers who have delivered previously to the North American market - including commuter stock. They're included on the FOI list, and don't rule out Alstom despite their recent struggles. It's important to remember that the hierarchy for their high-speed products and North American bi-level equipment is quite separate and their impact in the market is significant, including Superliner II's.

Are you saying that you infer that Alstom will win this contract?

And what do you all think about the chances of Hitachi getting this contract? (Remember that they are building a new factory for Washington's Metro in nearby Maryland).

 

[jiml]

Are you saying that you infer that Alstom will win this contract?

Not at all, but there is a tendency to rule them out due to their recent issues with Amtrak and SNCF orders. Through their Bombardier subsidiary they continue to be a leader in bi-level commuter cars and hold the patents/blueprints for the Superliner fleet. This could give them an advantage. It is entirely possible they could botch this up too, but the FOI post showed they had been invited to participate. Siemens is likely to run into the capacity concerns mentioned previously and might not commit to building a new domestic bi-level facility for what will be a very small and possibly one-time order.

If Hitachi was going to break into the NA long distance market the logical place would have been the Airo order - a style of train they deliver around the rest of the world. Do they even build bi-levels in any quantity?

 

[railiner]

Through their Bombardier subsidiary they continue to be a leader in bi-level commuter cars and hold the patents/blueprints for the Superliner fleet.

Curious about them holding the “patents/blueprints for the Superliner fleet”.
Even if they acquired the former Pullman-Standard plant, tools, and intellectual property, didn’t Amtrak itself own the designs for these cars?

 

[PVD]

would it even matter 30 + years out? I think the patent and plans stuff is far overrated for things from the distant past. It is safe to assume that all of the tooling is long gone, and all of the supplier contracts expired, and most if not all of the workers are long gone

 

[jis]

Curious about them holding the “patents/blueprints for the Superliner fleet”.
Even if they acquired the former Pullman-Standard plant, tools, and intellectual property, didn’t Amtrak itself own the designs for these cars?

IIRC that is indeed the case. Superliners are an Amtrak invention, but to what extent the detailed drawings etc. are Amtrak's and to what extent they devolved to Bombardier would depend on what was set up in the contract between Amtrak and Pullman Standard. And of course since then the Surfliner thing has also happened with Alstom. Besides owning those patents is not very relevant since the protection they provide have expired long back and the actual content of the patent by design of the patent system is information in public domain.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

The new Siemens plant in NC starts some type of production in October.
https://jobs.siemens.com/careers/jo...ngton-north-carolina-united-states-of-america

Siemens Mobility, the United States' largest passenger Rolling Stock manufacturer, is expanding its manufacturing footprint by building a $220M advanced manufacturing and rail services facility in Lexington, North Carolina, and we want you to join our team!

We are breaking ground in August 2023 and will ramp up our hiring efforts over the next year to start production (in an innovative facility) in October 2024.

 

[Andrew]

Not at all, but there is a tendency to rule them out due to their recent issues with Amtrak and SNCF orders. Through their Bombardier subsidiary they continue to be a leader in bi-level commuter cars and hold the patents/blueprints for the Superliner fleet. This could give them an advantage. It is entirely possible they could botch this up too, but the FOI post showed they had been invited to participate. Siemens is likely to run into the capacity concerns mentioned previously and might not commit to building a new domestic bi-level facility for what will be a very small and possibly one-time order.

If Hitachi was going to break into the NA long distance market the logical place would have been the Airo order - a style of train they deliver around the rest of the world. Do they even build bi-levels in any quantity?

Alstom is certainly making a lot of bilevel cars at the moment (think EMU's for NJ Transit and coaches for both Metra and VRE).

I wonder if the fact that Alstom has had trouble with the new Acela's, if Amtrak will lean toward ordering bilevels from Stadler or Kawasaki? (I personally have really enjoyed riding in the C3 LIRR coaches which were previously made by Kawasaki).

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I doubt Alstom will have as many issues if they were selected to manufacture passenger cars for the US, as they've done it before and they'll be doing it again. Alstom has gained orders, despite the issues with Acela IIs, which again to point out was more of an infrastructure issue on the NEC's part, then a serious flaw with the trainsets themselves. The other minor issues that arose is the typical new train flaws, that'll get resolved.

As for Alstom's issues in Europe, try cleaning up someone else's mess they've created over a several year period, it's not going to get resolved overnight I'll tell you that much. Bombardier foisted crap to be blunt, on a lot of railways in Europe, and Alstom purchasing them was both a blessing and a curse. Alstom had a lot of cleaning up to do, with many trains with defects and orders being delayed.