LSL Michigan Reroute Rumors & Speculation

[JoeBas]

So where is this alleged trackwork/detour, and why isn't the Capital Limited affected?

 

[fairviewroad]

According to a post on Trainorders, the Michigan detour for the Lake Shore Limited is account Norfolk Southern trackwork.

OK, so this isn't some kind of test of a Michigan detour, just a detour for track work. That makes some more sense. I doubt if there will be any intermediate stops. Too complicated to set up fares and sell tickets for something that temporary.

I agree, it would be very surprising if Amtrak's reservations system could handle ticketing for a short-term detour. I mean, in theory it could but it seems more likely that the train will simply run non-stop (save for any sort of crew change) on the detour route. Sort of like when the Coast Starlight detours through central California.

I wonder why only the LSL has to be detoured and not the Cap?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

So where is this alleged trackwork/detour, and why isn't the Capital Limited affected?

If it's night work, maybe they expect the CL to get through the area before/after the track work.

 

[west point]

Stopping the LSL at the Deaborn > west will give MI DOT some way to guage what a late train both ways could allow. Fares ? easy enough on wolverine stops west and probably easy to get for Toledo stations and east. Just use the thru way fares and thru way can terminate at Durand instead of going to Toledo ? Schedule might be a problem ?

Michigan certainly could advertise the service ?

EDITED out Durand which was a brain F***

 

[Amtrak288]

A few have mentioned routing through Canada, portions of that line do still exist however in Niagara Falls, Ontario, the line was torn up years ago to build one of those nice big places where you can make a short-term investment at a roulette table! Also, past that casino, the line ran by the Clifton Hill area until it eventually turned east again and crossed the Niagara River north of the falls back into the U.S. The bridge is still there but now there likely would be no way to put that line back in around the Fallsview Casino. The right of way near Clifton Hill now is just a big walking path.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

A Detroit to Buffalo train could use VIA rail tracks to Hamilton amd then turn southeast on Maple Leaf tracks to Niagara Falls. However, I would prefer if this was operated as a new route (possibly an extended Empire Service) and the LSL continued to serve Toledo, Cleveland, and Erie.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

So now we know the speeds on the proposed detour from a post on trainorders....

Darn, and here I was thinking that this was some sort of pre-planned Amish plot in North Central Indiana to destroy train bridges (they needed to plan in advance via letter as they don't use cell phones or e-mail) - it can't be stopped for religious reasons and they are needed for the vote in November. AU has already been infiltrated by bandits from Michigan wearing bandanas to keep us guessing...

 

[MikefromCrete]

A Detroit to Buffalo train could use VIA rail tracks to Hamilton amd then turn southeast on Maple Leaf tracks to Niagara Falls. However, I would prefer if this was operated as a new route (possibly an extended Empire Service) and the LSL continued to serve Toledo, Cleveland, and Erie.

You expect United States taxpayers to pay for a train through a foreign country? Good luck getting that past Rep. Mica and his cohorts.

 

[A Voice]

Back in the days of the 'express business' of the late 90's an extension of an Empire Service train across Canada to Chicago was actually proposed. Of course, like nearly all of the 'express' driven expansions, it never happened.

 

[zephyr17]

If the goal is to service Detroit/Dearborn, wouldn't re-routing thru Canada make more sense? Though, that would eliminate Erie and Cleveland.

There's no way the LSL would be routed through Canada. You would miss Cleveland and Toledo, for Pete's sake; a through route from Buffalo to Detroit through Ontario no longer exists; and customs and border procedures would eat up four hours. Gone are the days when you could just stroll into Canada with a minimum of fuss.

This is some railfan's pipe dream.

VI didn't think it was worst possible question. :unsure:

First, I had thought that the Capital Limited could still give service to Cleveland and Toledo from the NE and Chicago. I didn't realize that part of this proposal was to kill off the CL? Second, I wasn't aware that its now impossible for any Amtrak train to "stroll" into Canada anymore. Would anything change if there were no stops in Canada?

What track does Via's Toronto to Windsor service run on?

)

VIA uses CN trackage. There is no easy way to get from VIA's Windsor station to the railroad tunnel to Detroit. The old Canada Southern RR, line (NYC/PC/Conrail subsidiary), that Amtrak's 'Niagara Rainbow', and 'Empire State Express' used to run over, is mostly gone as well.

Whether running "closed doors" across Canada, would be acceptable, is a good question....they would probably have to have a Canadian border officer ride from border to border to insure no one got on or off enroute..

Okay, assume a sealed train through Canada. Good luck getting CN to accept it where there is no statutory clout at all for access.

 

[PerRock]

Stopping the LSL at the Durand > west will give MI DOT some way to guage what a late train both ways could allow. Fares ? easy enough on wolverine stops west and probably easy to get for Toledo stations and east. Just use the thru way fares and thru way can terminate at Durand instead of going to Toledo ? Schedule might be a problem ?

Michigan certainly could advertise the service ?

Why would it stop, or even pass by Durand? The LSL will be running on the Michigan Line, which is further south then Durand (thru Jackson, Ann Arbor, Dearborn). If they wanted to do a test stop Ann Arbor makes much more sense, especially as it's the largest (or 2nd largest, I don't have current numbers) stop in MI.

peter

 

[SarahZ]

Ann Arbor is #1, with Kalamazoo at a very close #2.

(Source: MDOT website, which I don't have linked on my phone)

 

[fairviewroad]

Ann Arbor is #1, with Kalamazoo at a very close #2.

(Source: MDOT website, which I don't have linked on my phone)

In FY15, Ann Arbor had 143,130 and Kalamazoo had 117,997. You can see the station-by-station breakdown at this link.

Note that thanks to the Blue Water, Kalamazoo has an additional daily train departure in each direction, so from a "per departure" standpoint, Ann Arbor far outpaces Kalamazoo (though each has a very respectable total).

 

[SarahZ]

Ann Arbor is #1, with Kalamazoo at a very close #2.

(Source: MDOT website, which I don't have linked on my phone)

In FY15, Ann Arbor had 143,130 and Kalamazoo had 117,997. You can see the station-by-station breakdown at this link.

Note that thanks to the Blue Water, Kalamazoo has an additional daily train departure in each direction, so from a "per departure" standpoint, Ann Arbor far outpaces Kalamazoo (though each has a very respectable total).

That's a fair and valid point that I'm ashamed I overlooked. I was looking at the numbers for "Michigan Services", not the Wolverine.

 

[west point]

Cannot speak for others but until my Atlanta gets all 5 proposed trains will strongly oppose any Canadian train. Now if it would cost nothing to the Government, Amtrak, any state or local government not rob equipment from other trains, Maybe ? Wonder what persons in other underserved area would feel about Canadian route before their own needs ?

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Cannot speak for others but until my Atlanta gets all 5 proposed trains will strongly oppose any Canadian train. Now if it would cost nothing to the Government, Amtrak, any state or local government not rob equipment from other trains, Maybe ? Wonder what persons in other underserved area would feel about Canadian route before their own needs ?

I agree that other routes should take priority, I was just stated that the tracks do exist and a route through Canada would be possible. What if Michigan and New York decided to fund it?

 

[MikefromCrete]

Cannot speak for others but until my Atlanta gets all 5 proposed trains will strongly oppose any Canadian train. Now if it would cost nothing to the Government, Amtrak, any state or local government not rob equipment from other trains, Maybe ? Wonder what persons in other underserved area would feel about Canadian route before their own needs ?

I agree that other routes should take priority, I was just stated that the tracks do exist and a route through Canada would be possible. What if Michigan and New York decided to fund it?

Why would these two states fund a train that operates through a foreign country? I'm sure Michigan residents wanting a train serving Traverse City or New York residents wanting additional Empire Service would have a thing or two to say about this. What's this fascination about running an Amtrak train through Southern Ontario? That's VIA's job --- and they've got a long list of places that deserve service before a train connecting Niagara FAlls and Windsor.

 

[SarahZ]

Yeah, I don't know. When I drive east, I often cut across Canada because it's faster. Before the passport/EDL laws, the majority of Michiganders did the same thing. Now, it might be more of a mixed bag.

Anyway, if we're talking going by train, I'd much rather see the funds go toward connecting Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Detroit or even my big wish list item of a train that continues onward from Grand Rapids up to Traverse City (or even all the way to Mackinaw City) than a train that runs across Canada and doesn't even stop.

Now, if we're taking about bringing the International Limited back, sign me up.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Yeah, I don't know. When I drive east, I often cut across Canada because it's faster. Before the passport/EDL laws, the majority of Michiganders did the same thing. Now, it might be more of a mixed bag.

Anyway, if we're talking going by train, I'd much rather see the funds go toward connecting Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Detroit or even my big wish list item of a train that continues onward from Grand Rapids up to Traverse City (or even all the way to Mackinaw City) than a train that runs across Canada and doesn't even stop.

Now, if we're taking about bringing the International Limited back, sign me up.

I agree that there is more pressing needs, but eventually if the priorities get done I see no reason this is not possible. What if the International Limited is rebuilt and is combined with the Maple Leaf to operate as one train?

 

[railiner]

Haven't checked the connecting times recently...but a determined person can travel from Buffalo to Windsor transferring at Aldershot.....

 

[afigg]

Now, if we're taking about bringing the International Limited back, sign me up.

The subject of a Chicago - Ann Arbor - Windsor - Toronto service has been included as a possible future route that is being "studied" in Amtrak presentations to the Transportation Border Working Group. Here is the Amtrak presentation from March, 2015 (10 page PDF slide set) that has the route on a map and a brief mention of the possible service. It would not be a full restoration of the International as it would be over a different route though MI and Ontario.

How serious the study or proposal is for a Chicago - Ann Arbor - Windsor - Toronto service is, don't know. It would likely have significant start-up costs in border & custom inspection facilities and presumably would require subsidy funding from Michigan and VIA. Also don't know if the rail tunnel from Detroit to Windsor is suitable for passenger trains without spending mucho $. Given how many years it is taking to add a Customs facility in Montreal for the Adirondack and Vermonter extension, restoring Chicago - Toronto service is likely be discussed for years by Amtrak, VIA, and umpteen state & federal agencies with no real progress.

 

[SarahZ]

Now, if we're taking about bringing the International Limited back, sign me up.

The subject of a Chicago - Ann Arbor - Windsor - Toronto service has been included as a possible future route that is being "studied" in Amtrak presentations to the Transportation Border Working Group. Here is the Amtrak presentation from March, 2015 (10 page PDF slide set) that has the route on a map and a brief mention of the possible service. It would not be a full restoration of the International as it would be over a different route though MI and Ontario.
How serious the study or proposal is for a Chicago - Ann Arbor - Windsor - Toronto service is, don't know. It would likely have significant start-up costs in border & custom inspection facilities and presumably would require subsidy funding from Michigan and VIA. Also don't know if the rail tunnel from Detroit to Windsor is suitable for passenger trains without spending mucho $. Given how many years it is taking to add a Customs facility in Montreal for the Adirondack and Vermonter extension, restoring Chicago - Toronto service is likely be discussed for years by Amtrak, VIA, and umpteen state & federal agencies with no real progress.

Dream killer.

 

[TylerP42]

This has been confirmed by multiple sources, including sources in Chicago and conductors and employees. It is a test program. Hopefully it goes well.

Apparently, Michigan was pushing hard for a Long Distance Train in Michigan.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

So confused. Test or reroute due to MOW conflict?

Test you can ask for compensation.

Maintance you get to complain.

Not that really matters, but it would be nice if the needs of the passengers are considered if this is a test. Hate to miss my connection due to a test.

 

[TylerP42]

So confused. Test or reroute due to MOW conflict?

Test you can ask for compensation.

Maintance you get to complain.

Not that really matters, but it would be nice if the needs of the passengers are considered if this is a test. Hate to miss my connection due to a test.

The run time is actually supposed to be less than TOL-CHI via Chicago line due to less traffic and 110 mph. Without the heritage diners, they can go 110 with no issues.