New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

[Rasputin]

We tried contemporary dining on the Lake Shore in May so I was able to compare it to the dining service on the Crescent a week earlier. The contemporary dining was adequate. I think the breakfast at my local McDonalds is better. The breakfast sandwich on the CONO a day before was far tastier than the Lake Shore breakfast sandwich (although the bottom part of the CONO breakfast sandwich was a bit soggy). The lunch was sort of like getting a frozen entrée at your supermarket and heating it up. Given the high prices of sleeping car accommodations on the Lake Shore, it is not a good value.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

HGSCS, you've made some really good points.

My perspective on Anderson aside, my concern is that Amtrak is stagnant and needs to evolve to some extent. It is often said in the business world that one of the most dangerous phrases is "we've always done 'X' this way". I want there to be a balance between operating efficiency and keeping riders/passengers happy so that they will continue to ride the trains. It's akin to pruning a tree. You may not necessarily want to prune parts of the tree (because it's pretty), but you realize that pruning is better for the tree's overall health.

I've said before that a lot of Anderson's moves and decisions appear to be drastic, even to the point of possibly eliminating parts of the Amtrak system. However, I don't believe that his aim or intent is to alienate the customer base on which his position stands.

 

[HGSCS]

It’s an interesting question.

The airlines, after 9/11, were hemorrhaging money. They were operated in in old school manner. CEOs such as Anderson brought the airlines back to profitability by changing the overall model, often to the displeasure of customers. But it worked. Extremely well.

While Amtrak does not need to be profitable it does need to be sustainable. There is a reason that the Amtrak board of directors brought in Anderson. They obviously liked what he did with the airlines and wanted him to bring some of that expertise and apply it to Amtrak.

On the other hand, when it comes to flying you have a much more captive audience. Flying is the only option for many people, especially when it comes to long distance travel. Amtrak is often a preference rather than a necessity.

I don’t claim to have the answers. But what I do see is that Anderson is being cautious, which is a good thing. It is clear that contemporary dining was tested on a limited basis and is only being expanded after they have been able to see the results of those tests. It’s also clear that they have been listening to customer feedback. That’s why you saw the enhancement to the contemporary dining menu shortly after its rollout. If changes are going to be made this seems like a responsible way to make those changes. I know that the changes are upsetting to many of us but it is also in our best interest if Amtrak moves toward sustainability. I am all for shielding Amtrak from the whims of Congress. At least to the extent possible.

No doubt people complained when they removed Pullman cars and white linen service. But times change and a company that does not change with the times is a company that is doomed to die.

 

[Rasputin]

It’s also clear that they have been listening to customer feedback. That’s why you saw the enhancement to the contemporary dining menu shortly after its rollout.

Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that the "enhancements' to contemporary dining took place about 10 or 11 months after it was introduced.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

As a airline pilot who lived through 9/11. Government loans/bailouts, bankruptcies (gutting of pensions) by every major airline except Southwest and mergers are why the airlines are solidly in the black now.

There’s not nearly the competition with 3 major network airlines. The LCC’s have thrived but for the most part in boutique less than daily markets. People think Anderson did a miraculous job at Delta they forget but NW and Delta used the bankruptcy laws in that time frame. Oil was also at close to record lows at the end of his tenure at Delta. His leadership was definitely fostered by external forces.

 

[HGSCS]

Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that the "enhancements' to contemporary dining took place about 10 or 11 months after it was introduced.

Contemporary dining started June 1, 2018.

The addition of hot meals was announced in January, 2019.

So a little over six months - not ten or eleven.

 

[HGSCS]

As a airline pilot who lived through 9/11. Government loans/bailouts, bankruptcies (gutting of pensions) by every major airline except Southwest and mergers are why the airlines are solidly in the black now.

There’s not nearly the competition with 3 major network airlines. The LCC’s have thrived but for the most part in boutique less than daily markets. People think Anderson did a miraculous job at Delta they forget but NW and Delta used the bankruptcy laws in that time frame. Oil was also at close to record lows at the end of his tenure at Delta. His leadership was definitely fostered by external forces.

No doubt Anderson used every tool available - including bankruptcy. If bankruptcy alone was the reason for a company's survival, Sears and countless other companies would be thriving. The point is that Anderson steered the airline through arguably the most difficult time in aviation history. Delta's stock went from under $10 to about $50 during Anderson's tenure. The Amtrak Board of Directors obviously saw something in him.

Full disclosure, I really don't know much about Anderson. I am just making my observations based on what little I have seen and heard.

The thrust of my argument is quite simple. In order for any business to survive it needs to change and adapt. Time will only tell if Anderson is making all of the wrong decisions. But we should not be afraid of change itself - just the wrong types of change.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It is perfectly understandable to be upset over this change. But if you are no longer going to ride a one-night train because of this change, let’s be honest. You were likely never a railfan in the first place.

I don't know if you really just showed up yesterday, or if you're a former member making patronizing remarks under a second account, but either way it's rather curious to see you try so hard to make a name for yourself right out of the gate.

My suspicion is that for all of those people who say that they aren't going to ride the train, the overwhelming majority are going to ride the train. No doubt Anderson has seen this in the airline world. Think about how many people complained vociforously over baggage fees, removal of meals, etc. And yet they still traveled by air.

When people say they're done riding Amtrak I tend to take them at their word. I also believe the other side when they say they'll keep riding Amtrak no matter what happens. That being said, you're the first person I've seen who thinks long distance passengers are beholden to one of the slowest and least dependable passenger rail networks in the same way aircraft passengers are beholden to the world's largest domestic airline market.

No doubt Anderson knows that most people think like me.

What's it like living inside your own echo chamber?

 

[HGSCS]

Wow. Thanks for the welcome, Devil's Advocate. It was, ahem, interesting.

One point of clarification. You missed the part where I said that airline passengers are much more of a captive audience than train passengers.

I will quote what I said in post number 153 with emphasis added this time:
"On the other hand, when it comes to flying you have a much more captive audience. Flying is the only option for many people, especially when it comes to long distance travel. Amtrak is often a preference rather than a necessity."

So you will still have to wait to see the "first person who thinks long distance passengers are beholden to one of the slowest and least dependable passenger rail networks in the same way aircraft passengers are beholden to the world's largest domestic airline market."

As for your other accusations, I will point out that LSL and CL operational losses are LOWER with contemporary dining than before. So, yes, Anderson knows that lots of people think like me and that revenues on these trains will not be significantly impacted by a switch to contemporary dining. The numbers are what they are and they have proven this out. If you have evidence to the contrary I am all ears, but I notice that you did not provide any.

Finally, I stand by my comment that if you no longer ride a one-night train solely because of a switch to Contemporary Dining you really aren't a rail fan. Put another way, you are a foodie more than a rail fan. But let's be honest, it's not like the dining car provided anything remotely close to the type of dining that excites foodies. Frozen green beans, frozen steaks, pre-cooked bacon and iceberg lettuce salads aren't things that foodies get excited about. You yourself said, "To this day Amtrak's burger remains the most disappointing example I've ever had outside of a middle school cafeteria. If someone knows of a for-profit sit down restaurant that makes worse burgers than Amtrak please let me know." And let's not forget when you said, "Amtrak sausage was fine for many years but more recently it's become so bad that it finally made me switch to bacon, which isn't really my preference, but compared to boiled sausage I'll pick bacon every time." (see post #8 and #13 here: https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/threads/food-preparation-on-long-distance-trains.72314/ )

I am sympathetic, however, to the loss of the overall camaraderie of the dining car. I have no doubt, however, that the true rail fans will swallow that bitter pill and keep riding.

 

[tricia]

Just for rhetorical purposes, let's assume for a moment that the various changes that have been happening under Anderson's watch are honestly intended as experiments aimed at improving Amtrak.

There are still three mega-problems with the changes:

1) Many (most? all?) of these changes constitute reductions in service and/or the quality of service, with no reliable improvement in profitability. Hard to see how, for example, loss of baggage service at so many stations will "improve" Amtrak other than the dubious financial "improvement" of not paying staff to handle baggage anymore (is there any evidence that Amtrak management has made any effort to explore whether towns losing station staff would be willing to pay that cost themselves?), regardless of how much revenue is lost when passengers who'd previously checked baggage decide not to take Amtrak in the future. I'd say most or all of this sort of change risks the endgame scenario of cutting costs again and again until there's nothing left of Amtrak at all.

2) ANY elimination of train routes, or parts of train routes, is effectively final, not "experimental." Once Amtrak gives up all or part of an existing route, getting the route back for use by passenger trains in the future will be very difficult or impossible. (Consider the extensive discussion, in other threads on this forum, about obstacles to re-establishing service on previously abandoned routes.) As oil and other fossil fuels become more expensive and/or scarce and/or unavailable in the future, we'll really, really want to be able to use passenger rail more as an alternative to less fuel-efficient modes of transport. Eliminating passenger train routes now takes that set of options out of reach in the future.

3) The "changes" we've seen proposed and/or enacted so far simply don't address Amtrak's most pressing real problems. That would require a visionary approach to, among other things, OTP and better connectivity in Amtrak's network and its connections to other modes of transport. Instead of building on and improving Amtrak's existing infrastructure, all we see is cut, cut, cut.

Now let's re-visit that initial assumption. Many participants in this forum clearly see "3" as well as changes in the "2" category as not being good-faith efforts to improve Amtrak. The clearest example of that to date has been Anderson's proposal to bustitute a section of the SWC. This (along with mega-problem "1"), has led many of us to be very skeptical of each specific "change" as it's announced, and in general to be suspicious about Anderson's motives and goals.

That skepticism is only deepened when changes rolled out with great fanfare as "enhancements" look like cheap substitutes that Amtrak is apparently calculating it can get away with in the short run, with little consideration of genuine improvement or long-term sustainability.

 

[HGSCS]

All fair points, Tricia. My comments were limited solely to the introduction of Contemporary Dining.

That said, I think that people may disagree with the definition of "improving Amtrak." Anderson may focus more on sustainability whereas others may focus more on the onboard experience. Both sides have their merits - although there can be no onboard experience if Congress finally throws in the towel. Exactly where that balance is drawn I do not know. Anderson I am sure has a vision - and it remains to be seen if his vision works out.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

“that skepticism is only deepened when changes rolled out with great fanfare as "enhancements" look like cheap substitutes that Amtrak is apparently calculating it can get away with in the short run, with little consideration of genuine improvement or long-term sustainability.”

Tricia you nailed it, that goes hand in hand with HGSGS statement,
“Delta's stock went from under $10 to about $50 during Anderson's tenure. The Amtrak Board of Directors obviously saw something in him.”

Anderson has no clue how to run a public for the good of the people company. There’s no Wall Street to impress here. He may be trying to impress the Board so he hits the targets for his pay which is 100 percent based on bonuses (no base salary). I wish Senator Moran would ask to see what Andersons pay/bonus targets are, it might be enlightening.

Like a lot private sector CEO’s today he’s laying no viable foundation for the future. He’s cutting with no end goal in sight unless the end goal truly is to shut the network down. Anderson was and still is the wrong person for the job.

He’s worked for United Healthcare and two airlines that went through bankruptcy in and around his time there. Hardly a resume for a public servant. Don’t get me wrong tweaks and efficiencies can always be made but he has no concept or clue.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Let's look at operating costs. Specifically, let's look at the operating profit and losses.

Year to date, as of May, here is what we see for 2018 and 2019.

Lake Shore Limited:
2018 operating losses: 26.9
2019 operating losses: 23.5

Capitol Limited:
2018 operating losses: 19.8
2019 operating losses: 17.3

So this tells us that both trains have had lower losses since the introduction of Contemporary Dining. In other words, it has not had the catastrophic impact that many suggested it would have.

Mind you, other eastern long distance trains lost less money as well. But that's the point. Contemporary Dining doesn't reverse that overall trend. I freely admit that this is a very shallow look into the overall issue - and that I am probably in over my head here, but it is safe to say that rumors of the demise of these trains were greatly exaggerated.

Eh. I'm not convinced that tells the whole story without also looking at ridership (which should be the main concern anyway) and revenues.

EDIT:

Lake Shore Limited:
2018 Operating Revenues: 19.1
2019 Operating Revenues: 18.6

2018 Ridership: 227.9
2019 Ridership: 223.5

Capitol Limited:
2018 Operating Revenues: 12.8
2019 Operating Revenues: 12.1

2018 Ridership: 133.8
2019 Ridership: 127.1

 

[jebr]

Anderson has no clue how to run a public for the good of the people company. There’s no Wall Street to impress here.

I'd argue that Delta in 2016 was a pretty well-run company, and does its core job of transporting people pretty well. They have some impressive numbers in terms of operational performance (extremely low numbers of cancelled flights, good on-time performance, etc.) and if Anderson could somehow bring that to Amtrak I'd be very pleased.

If anything, Anderson seems to be aiming straight for following the laws as written, namely to move Amtrak to profitability, run it as a business, and to eliminate F&B losses. If Congress wants Amtrak to run things unprofitably for the good of the country, then Congress needs to pass laws to reverse/amend their current laws. They could remove the "run as a business" item, or stipulate that the long-distance network will be funded at x amount and requires y amenities on-board. I'd love to see Amtrak have their budget increased and have a mandate that, say, 40% of the budget is used to provide connectivity throughout America, connecting as many people/underserved populations as possible, and 60% is used to fund routes that will gain the most ridership. Those percentages could be tweaked, but the general concept still stands.

 

[HGSCS]

Eh. I'm not convinced that tells the whole story without also looking at ridership (which should be the main concern anyway) and revenues.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that Contemporary Dining led to lower losses. As I mentioned earlier, other eastern long distance trains with full dining also saw lower losses. All I was suggesting is that Contemporary Dining has not had the apocalyptic impact that many people predicted.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

My biggest complaint with the contemporary dining is how it locks you into set side dishes and desserts. That forces people with certain diets to be unable to get an entire meal that they can actually consume.

 

[chrsjrcj]

To be clear, I am not suggesting that Contemporary Dining led to lower losses. As I mentioned earlier, other eastern long distance trains with full dining also saw lower losses. All I was suggesting is that Contemporary Dining has not had the apocalyptic impact that many people predicted.

Sure, operating performances have improved. I edited my original post to include revenues and ridership.

 

[HGSCS]

My biggest complaint with the contemporary dining is how it locks you into set side dishes and desserts. That forces people with certain diets to be unable to get an entire meal that they can actually consume.

Is the only special dietary meal that can be ordered in advance a kosher meal? I can't recall seeing any other options other than the vegetarian meal that is already on the menu. It would definitely be nice if they could accommodate more dietary restrictions.

 

[chrsjrcj]

I'd argue that Delta in 2016 was a pretty well-run company, and does its core job of transporting people pretty well. They have some impressive numbers in terms of operational performance (extremely low numbers of cancelled flights, good on-time performance, etc.) and if Anderson could somehow bring that to Amtrak I'd be very pleased.

If anything, Anderson seems to be aiming straight for following the laws as written, namely to move Amtrak to profitability, run it as a business, and to eliminate F&B losses. If Congress wants Amtrak to run things unprofitably for the good of the country, then Congress needs to pass laws to reverse/amend their current laws. They could remove the "run as a business" item, or stipulate that the long-distance network will be funded at x amount and requires y amenities on-board. I'd love to see Amtrak have their budget increased and have a mandate that, say, 40% of the budget is used to provide connectivity throughout America, connecting as many people/underserved populations as possible, and 60% is used to fund routes that will gain the most ridership. Those percentages could be tweaked, but the general concept still stands.

That is precisely the model my county uses when determining bus routes, and how much resources each route receives. Without completely throwing this thread off-topic, here is a write up by a transit consultant regarding the ridership vs coverage tradeoff (although in regards to buses) https://humantransit.org/2018/02/basics-the-ridership-coverage-tradeoff.html

 

[Qapla]

Who knows ... maybe the idea with "changing" the dining options really is to take Amtrak out of the food distribution business. Perhaps, they are taking a page out of WalMart's book ???

Years back, when you went into a "department store", like the old Woolworth stores, they had a "lunch counter" and/or dining area. These were operated by the store. In time, they started to disappear. When WalMart started to become "the store" they did not have a "lunch counter" ... however, look at many of the WalMart's now.

Now - they have Subway, McDonald's and other "brand name" fast food brands renting space inside the store. Maybe, just maybe - some of those dining cars they pulled out of service can be/are being refitted to allow "outside vendors" to turn them into "fast food branded" dining cars selling food people buy with much more enthusiasm then the riders on Amtrak do with the "food" offered in the lounge cars.

Especially when trains like the Silver Star no longer have a dining car at all - only a lounge car that sells over-priced-micro-zapped offerings.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The Auto Train changes are an interesting thing to notice.... if that is the future for the Western trains, we will have to see how that plays out.

Amtrak seems to be all over the map with who they are trying to attract as far as riders go. Food trucks in the auto train parking lot? Why? Who's asking that. I can hear it now... "Oh yeah you've just got to take the Auto Train, they have food trucks in the parking lot!"

 

[dogbert617]

Regarding the RPA, another nonchalant Friday update with this news.
When are they going to call a spade, a spade and call out Amtrak management in front of Congress. Starting with Anderson and Gardner are incompetent and deceitful (obviously not in those exact words).

Fast forward 6 months from now the next nonchalant update very well could be, “we are disheartened to learn Amtrak is suspending 11 of the 15 national network trains, the 4 remaining will operate tri weekly, except the CA Zephyr which will be 1x weekly”, “please consider a donation at this time”.

Before you jump on me with this, can you honestly tell me this is not what Anderson’s wants?

I know it’s Congresses call but expect huge ridership drop off’s, more skewed facts, possible disregard for Congress and no 180 day train off notices with the backing of the Administration. Right now Anderson is boiling Amtrak like a frog in luke warm water

RPA is respected in Congress they need to start challenging Amtrak more. We more then likely will have a new administration in 2020 but what will be left of Amtrak in 18 months?

You really think that by say 2021, that something like 10-11 long distance trains will be gone? I doubt Anderson and the other higher ups (i.e. Gardner, dunno if I'm saying his last name right, etc) will go THAT FAR with cuts (due to Congress and(especially!) Senate raising high hell on Anderson if he proposes that), but I am still concerned about further downgrades to service. I.e. contemporary dining potentially going to all long distance trains still with a dining car(while not taking care of the no diner situation on Silver Star and Cardinal), further unstaffing of Amtrak stations, baggage cars being less available on long distance trains, etc.

Ugh, it'll be a bumpy ride till Anderson is out of Amtrak....

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I will point out that LSL and CL operational losses are LOWER with contemporary dining than before. So, yes, Anderson knows that lots of people think like me and that revenues on these trains will not be significantly impacted by a switch to contemporary dining. The numbers are what they are and they have proven this out. If you have evidence to the contrary I am all ears, but I notice that you did not provide any.

I have little doubt that Anderson can substantially reduce the food and beverage budget by removing options, lowering expectations, and reducing staff. With enough board support Anderson can probably reduce net F&B costs to almost nothing. The problem is that Amtrak has been repeatedly lowering service standards without reducing ticket fares or otherwise sharing the savings with Amtrak's customers (other than perhaps the SS). That being the case sleeper passengers are now stuck with a perpetually eroding value proposition while coach passengers are simply losing access altogether.

I stand by my comment that if you no longer ride a one-night train solely because of a switch to Contemporary Dining you really aren't a rail fan...I am sympathetic, however, to the loss of the overall camaraderie of the dining car. I have no doubt, however, that the true rail fans will swallow that bitter pill and keep riding.

I'm so glad we finally have some real rail fans who don't mind throwing good money after bad and will always be there to pickup the tab no matter the price or service levels. It's actually quite comforting to realize that fake fans like me can simply go about our lives without worrying about Amtrak now that some guardian benefactors with deep pockets and shallow expectations are ready and able to cover any shortfall.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yeah.. people like me who go out to Omaha and pay $400 to ride behind the Union Pacific Big Boy for 6 hours aren't real railfans.
I much prefer riding trains vs. flying but since I'm not a real railfan I've decided to take Delta First Class vs. Amtrak Sleeper due to the downgrades in service.

I recently traveled back from California and thought briefly about taking Amtrak.... but then I thought about how depressing it would be to ride the Starlight and Empire Builder right now and think about what it was like just a few years ago. Granted the customer service was always iffy on the Starlight both in the diner and the PPC... but the experience was still worth it.

I really do need to ride the Crescent before the diner ends... even a day trip down to New Orleans.

 

[HGSCS]

My comments were solely about Contemporary Dining. Nothing more. When it comes to Contemporary Dining, I find it very hard to believe that anyone who cares deeply about trains would stop riding because, for just one night, they no longer have access to frozen green beans, pre-cooked rice, frozen steak, boiled sausage and what Devil’s Advocate says is the worst cheeseburger s/he has ever had outside of a middle school cafeteria.

Frankly, I am willing to make some small sacrifices if it helps Amtrak’s sustainability. Others obviously aren’t, and that’s fine. We all have different priorities. I don’t begrudge anyone’s opinion. I’m just pointing out what they are prioritizing. When it comes to boycotting the train over Contemporary Dining, the priority is food and not the train ride itself.