New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

[AmtrakBlue]

Wow. Thanks for the welcome, Devil's Advocate. It was, ahem, interesting.

He's doesn't like the competition.

Permit me to play Devil's advocate here.

 

[tricia]

Well, HGSCS, I tried to point out the context for all this in my post above, but your responses make me think of what Dorothy Parker said when asked to use "horticulture" in a sentence.

"Contemporary Dining" is not a "sacrifice" necessary for "sustainability." Rather, it's one cut among the proverbial thousand trending toward Amtrak's demise.

Apologies to others on this forum if I'm feeding a troll here.

 

[HGSCS]

Well, HGSCS, I tried to point out the context for all this in my post above, but your responses make me think of what Dorothy Parker said when asked to use "horticulture" in a sentence.

"Contemporary Dining" is not a "sacrifice" necessary for "sustainability." Rather, it's one cut among the proverbial thousand trending toward Amtrak's demise.

Apologies to others on this forum if I'm feeding a troll here.

I agree with you. The cumulative nature of the changes matter. That is why I was careful to say that my comments were limited to Contemporary Dining. I was trying not to take the thread on a tangent.

That said, Congress has issued a very clear directive in regard to food and beverage. Contemporary dining is one way for Amtrak to follow the law. When it comes to asking Congress for money, I would much rather have Congress view Amtrak as willing to follow the law than viewing Amtrak as a law breaker - or at least to be able to see that Amtrak gave it their best shot. Failing to at least attempt to follow the law would give tons and tons of ammunition for Congressmen who want to see Amtrak eliminated. As I said earlier, I am more than happy to make some small sacrifices if it reduces the ability of the opposition to mount an effective campaign for the elimination of Amtrak.

When it comes to food and beverage changes, a lot of the criticism of Anderson should really be leveled at Congress.

 

[bms]

No doubt Anderson used every tool available - including bankruptcy. If bankruptcy alone was the reason for a company's survival, Sears and countless other companies would be thriving. The point is that Anderson steered the airline through arguably the most difficult time in aviation history. Delta's stock went from under $10 to about $50 during Anderson's tenure. The Amtrak Board of Directors obviously saw something in him.

The airline industry is one of the most heavily subsidized industries in the United States. If federal subsidies were on their books the same way they are for Amtrak, no airline would show a profit. Even with subsidies, one or more major airlines go bankrupt every time there's a recession. I don't see why any other industry should emulate their business practices.

Moreover, airlines have a majority of customers who have to travel for work, don't have time to fly or drive such distances, and thus don't have much choice but to accept worse service. Amtrak needs to provide a good service or its customers will use a different mode of travel.

 

[dogbert617]

Wow, my upcoming SM trip is on Sep 30th. Wonder if they remove the dining car after the arrival.

As I remember when dining cars were eliminated for contemporary dining on Capitol Limited(and coincidentally I was on the last west #29 Cap with a dining car), the trains that left Chicago and DC on May 31st, 2018, were THE last ever Cap trains with a dining car. So I'd say as long as your Silver Meteor trip departs from NYC or Miami no later than September 30th, you'd be safe. After that beginning October 1st with those 2 trains departing from NYC and Miami, you'd be out of luck and have to deal with contemporary dining BS.

 

[HGSCS]

The airline industry is one of the most heavily subsidized industries in the United States.

So you are saying that Anderson has years of experience running a large transportation company that had to navigate the complicated federal subsidy system. And while at the helm he more than quintupled his company’s stock value and significantly improved its profitability despite heavy competition.

I’m struggling to see how that makes him a bad fit for Amtrak.

I’m not saying that the guy is perfect, but he does bring an impressive resume to the table.

 

[dogbert617]

Just curious as to why? I’ve gotten more used to flying than I ever thought I would. First class on delta isn’t anymore than a sleeper and is a pretty decent product.

I’m pretty sad I reached the tipping point with Amtrak. I loved taking the train so much.... but enough was finally enough for the LD trains. I’ll try to take the crescent with a full diner one last time.

I'm almost tempted to try to do an Atlanta trip on Crescent before September 30, as I'd never ridden that route before. And also, due to the fact it'd allow me to have a dining meal (s) while on the Crescent at least once.

My question is if I'm traveling south on #19(this question is for those MORE familiar with regular train operations on Crescent, and have ridden it a LOT), is the first serving time for breakfast early enough so that one could get a meal in, before arriving in Atlanta? Due to my work schedule IF I go through with this trip, I would ride the Cardinal to Crescent (transfer in Charlottesville, VA), then fly back one way from Atlanta's airport to Chicago. Yay for the fact one way flights from Atlanta back to Chicago, look pretty affordable ($80ish).

 

[TiBike]

Apologies to others on this forum if I'm feeding a troll here.

There's a poster on Train Orders with the handle "another_view" who uses language remarkably similar to the quote below. He/she is artfully evasive about his/her relationship to Amtrak, but appears to have access to internal company data and consistently argues the Amtrak executive suite line. It's widely assumed, and never conclusively denied, that he/she is connected to Amtrak. It's not uncommon for companies to benefit from the services of social media hired guns, either paid directly or through an organisation with a parallel point of view.

So you are saying that Anderson has years of experience running a large transportation company that had to navigate the complicated federal subsidy system. And while at the helm he more than quintupled his company’s stock value and significantly improved its profitability despite heavy competition.

I’m struggling to see how that makes him a bad fit for Amtrak.

I’m not saying that the guy is perfect, but he does bring an impressive resume to the table.

 

[HGSCS]

TiBike, I’ve never been to Train Orders. I haven’t even heard of it until now. I also have absolutely no connection to Amtrak. If I did I would have no problem disclosing it. Any information I have is straight from Google. The only statistics I've given were the revenue numbers for the LSL and CL. If you'd like, I can show you exactly where I found them via a Google search. Just send me a PM.

I perfectly understand that Anderson is not popular. But I’m willing to give him a chance. That’s all. If that makes me a troll, then I guess that I’m a troll. On the other hand, I assumed that this forum had room for different points of view. I now know that a small number of people feel otherwise. Thanks for you candor.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So you are saying that Anderson has years of experience running a large transportation company that had to navigate the complicated federal subsidy system. And while at the helm he more than quintupled his company’s stock value and significantly improved its profitability despite heavy competition. I’m struggling to see how that makes him a bad fit for Amtrak. I’m not saying that the guy is perfect, but he does bring an impressive resume to the table.

This post is not worded like a discrete opinion based on distinct experiences. It honestly sounds more like a socially engineered public relations spin post.

TiBike, I’ve never been to Train Orders. I haven’t even herd of it until now. I also have absolutely no connection to Amtrak. If I did I would have no problem disclosing it. Any information I have is straight from Google. I perfectly understand that Anderson is not popular. I’m willing to give him a chance. That’s all. If that makes me a troll, then I guess that I’m a troll. On the other hand, I assumed that this forum had room for different points of view. I now know that a small number of people feel otherwise. Thanks for you candor.

You seem pretty good at this but you've already exposed some sort of agenda with your narrow topic participation and jarring PR speak. We may not know exactly why you're here, but we can be reasonably certain you're unable or unwilling to be honest and transparent with us.

 

[HGSCS]

Wow. All this because I’ve:
1) Provided publicly available statistics;
2) Pointed out that Anderson has a very good track record leading a large transportation company; and
3) Said that I’m willing to give him a chance.

I didn’t realize just how determined a small minority of people are to avoid listening to alternative points of view. Your Alex Jones style conspiracy theories at least gave me a good laugh.

If you disagree with me, rather than just engaging in personal attacks, tell me why you disagree. I’m certainly open to other points of view even if you may not be.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

What trains have you ridden? What types of food service have you personally experienced on rail?

 

[HGSCS]

What trains have you ridden? What types of food service have you personally experienced on rail?

I’ve been riding Amtrak since the 1970s. I generally ride four long distance trains each year (west and east) and six or so shorter trips. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I’ve dined using just about every dining option Amtrak offers.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yeah a vague answer like that doesn’t really help your cause ha.

So do you miss the PPC cars? Miss the wine tastings? Miss the slumber coaches?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Wow. All this because I’ve:
1) Provided publicly available statistics;
2) Pointed out that Anderson has a very good track record leading a large transportation company; and
3) Said that I’m willing to give him a chance.

You didn't merely post your position and then move on to other topics while waiting for the next update to drop. Instead you began a busy and targeted campaign to mock dissenters and rally supporters for Amtrak's decision to expand contemporary dining. You even waxed poetic about the exploits and accomplishments of the top brass. Not in an organic building block fashion but in more of a predefined boardroom talking point manner. This sort of content sticks out like a sore thumb on a simple fan forum.

I didn’t realize just how determined a small minority of people are to avoid listening to alternative points of view. Your Alex Jones style conspiracy theories at least gave me a good laugh. If you disagree with me, rather than just engaging in personal attacks, tell me why you disagree. I’m certainly open to other points of view even if you may not be.

All of your points have been heard. Nobody is censoring your posts. You're not even adding anything new at this point. It's just the same basic points being regurgitated with different wording.

I’ve been riding Amtrak since the 1970s. I generally ride four long distance trains each year (west and east) and six or so shorter trips. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I’ve dined using just about every dining option Amtrak offers.

Why don't you try posting some detailed trip reports from your favorite long distance routes. Maybe include some cherished train related photos and videos. I'm sure you have tons of content to draw from over the last half-century of routine Amtrak travel. An average of ten trips per year should be more than enough for several amazing stories.

 

[ehbowen]

For crying out loud, I'm lucky to be able to take ONE trip a year, and I've got several trip reports, stories and photos up on this site.

 

[HGSCS]

For crying out loud, I'm lucky to be able to take ONE trip a year, and I've got several trip reports, stories and photos up on this site.

I see. Because I haven’t posted “several trip reports, stories and photos” within 24 hours of joining I should be mocked.

I must say, the hostility here was very unexpected. I didn’t realize that merely wanting to give Anderson a chance would subject one to repeated personal attacks. At least now I know. I’m not going to feed those trolls from here on out.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I see. Because I haven’t posted “several trip reports, stories and photos” within 24 hours of joining I should be mocked.

I must say, the hostility here was very unexpected. I didn’t realize that merely wanting to give Anderson a chance would subject one to repeated personal attacks. At least now I know. I’m not going to feed those trolls from here on out.

The issue is that you have ONLY posted about Anderson. How about joining in on other topics WITHOUT mentioning Anderson or Amtrak management if you really are a rail fan. Show us what you know about trains, routes. Tell us about your personal experiences. There are a lot in non-management discussions on AU.

 

[HGSCS]

The issue is that you have ONLY posted about Anderson. How about joining in on other topics WITHOUT mentioning Anderson or Amtrak management if you really are a rail fan. Show us what you know about trains, routes. Tell us about your personal experiences. There are a lot in non-management discussions on AU.

I didn’t realize that was requirement for the first few hours of forum membership. My apologies.

 

[ehbowen]

I did not realize that you only joined on Tuesday. My apologies. But for those of us who have for some time now been watching the not-so-slow-motion train wreck which has been Amtrak under Anderson, "giving him a chance" essentially means standing back and watching everything that is still unique and enjoyable about the Amtrak experience be destroyed.

Question: How many rail fans in the 1980s had to plead, "Just give him a chance!" after Graham Claytor took the reins?

 

[HGSCS]

I definitely appreciate the concern over Anderson. As I have said earlier, only time will tell if his ideas are good or bad. I’m definitely concerned for long distance trains, as I mentioned in the WSJ video thread.

Seriously, people. I’m open to genuine discussion. It’s the personal attacks without discussion that I can do without. I was surprised that a couple of members felt so entitled to do that so quickly with a new forum member.

As for Contemporary Dining, I challenge those who disagree with me to tell me why I am wrong from a business perspective - not just your personal preference. (I prefer a traditional dining car too!). How has it impacted ridership? How has it impacted operational losses? How has it impacted Congressional funding? This is what matters. The personal attacks are just a distraction from what could be an informative discussion.

 

[Ryan]

While I’m in reasonable alignment with your thoughts on Contemporary Dining, your commentary on “real railfans” undercuts your complaints about personal attacks.

You may find your message more well received if you lay off attacking folks about what it means to be a railfan and stick to the solid factual ground you’re on, particularly as you’re delivering an unpopular (but true, in my opinion) take on what’s going on at Amtrak.

 

[user 14106]

I definitely appreciate the concern over Anderson. As I have said earlier, only time will tell if his ideas are good or bad. I’m definitely concerned for long distance trains, as I mentioned in the WSJ video thread.

Seriously, people. I’m open to genuine discussion. It’s the personal attacks without discussion that I can do without. I was surprised that a couple of members felt so entitled to do that so quickly with a new forum member.

As for Contemporary Dining, I challenge those who disagree with me to tell me why I am wrong from a business perspective - not just your personal preference. (I prefer a traditional dining car too!). How has it impacted ridership? How has it impacted operational losses? How has it impacted Congressional funding? This is what matters. The personal attacks are just a distraction from what could be an informative discussion.

If one does a year to year comparison there are drops in both the capitol limited and lake shore while some other trains have an increase so far this year. Granted you have to look a few long distance train ridership over a multi year period to get the picture as there are also many others factors that can affect ridership - for one the lake shore had a period last year where there was no New York section and you also have to figure in longer term outages due to nature or other incidents that can have a big effect on a once a day trains ridership. I guess they probably measure success by an equation: does the reduction in costs associated with contemporary dining pay for any reduction in ridership and then some or not. If the former is the case they probably consider it successful. I am disappointed but not surprised by the changes - most of my frustration is for the employeess who will be affected. Contemporary dining could be acceptable if some changes were made to improve the presentation and experience in the car - preordering before a trip would also be a big enhancement to help with stocking issues, but no improvements will help out any of the laid off employeees - and there are some great employees among that group that I have personally been served by in the diner. I am not defending the changes, merely trying to be open to them as I still do enjoy the train regardless of the food and flying isn’t really an option for me, but I do feel bad for the employees and hope they make some improvements to the model along with the expansion - it probably would have been better for them to make some further improvements this year on the capitol and lake shore before expanding it.

 

[HGSCS]

You may find your message more well received if you lay off attacking folks about what it means to be a railfan and stick to the solid factual ground you’re on, particularly as you’re delivering an unpopular (but true, in my opinion) take on what’s going on at Amtrak.

A very fair point. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that if someone stops riding a train solely because of Contemporary Dining, they are obviously a "fan" of the past rather than the present.

 

[HGSCS]

most of my frustration is for the employeess who will be affected. Contemporary dining could be acceptable if some changes were made to improve the presentation and experience in the car - preordering before a trip would also be a big enhancement to help with stocking issues, but no improvements will help out any of the laid off employeees - and there are some great employees among that group that I have personally been served by in the diner.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. The biggest struggle I have with Contemporary Dining is the loss of employees. I know that Congress' mandate can't be ignored, but I can't help but feel for them on a personal level. It is not going to be easy for these employees to find comparable jobs in the service industry that pay as well.

I also would like to see the ability to reserve a meal prior to your trip - something similar to what American Airlines does for first class meals. I've even been able to pre-order a rather nice "chef-inspired meal" as an economy class passenger. (see. e.g.: https://www.airtransat.com/en-US/Tr...nflight-services/Chef-s-Menu-by-Daniel-Vezina )

I like the peace of mind knowing that I don't need to worry about meals being sold out and that I will get my first choice.