New train (40-41 Floridian) between Miami and Chicago via Washington DC

[Harmon Shay]

Can someone catch me up on why people think the Star is getting truncated to Washington please, and for how long? I don't understand why Amtrak would cut themselves back from 2 NY-FL trains to just one.

It seems to me that at least until we can get Superliner coaches off the Pacific Surfliners and the Illini and Saluki, we've got to find a way to get more Superliners out west. I think Amtrak got the message from Congress that Amtrak is underserving the west, partly because it has way too many long-distance cars off the western long-distance trains and is thus suppressing ridership and revenue. Plus, if you look at the equipment utilization from the proposed Star-Cap consolidation, it's way more efficient than what's being done now. That does assume that there's enough down time in DC to make up for late trains.

 

[Palmland]

That does assume that there's enough down time in DC to make up for late trains.

To your point- performance for Silver Star arrival in Washington for May and June was not great. Average arrival delay about 1.5hrs with a median delay of 2 hrs.

 

[Amtrak25]

If they thru-routed the Capitol with the Meteor instead, they would multiple hours in DC to make up time.

 

[Harmon Shay]

I guess that gives Amtrak a guide on what to do about padding in DC. But these equipment run throughs were tried some years ago. The man in charge of long distance services at the time, Mark Cane, recently told Trains Magazine (or was it PTJ) that they didn't work. I think it was David Gunn who abandoned them on taking over Amtrak, saying the same thing.

 

[zephyr17]

I guess that gives Amtrak a guide on what to do about padding in DC. But these equipment run throughs were tried some years ago. The man in charge of long distance services at the time, Mark Cane, recently told Trains Magazine (or was it PTJ) that they didn't work. I think it was David Gunn who abandoned them on taking over Amtrak, saying the same thing.

They'd have to move 92 (or its revised version) back by around an hour to allow for servicing and a minimal pad.

Right now, the western LD connections at Chicago are around 5+ hours. You could cut into that a bit, the Lake Shore is scheduled about an hour later and has easy connections, wouldn't want to cut into that much more than that in adjusting the WAS-CHI segment. You could fool around to give it an additional 120 minute of pad at WAS without drastically altering connections by pushing MIA-WAS back an hour and WAS-CHI forward an hour.

You could shift the LSL schedule so the two wouldn't be on top of each other west of Cleveland, perhaps flip the slots.

I agree the SWC-Capitol run through was pretty much an unmitigated disaster. We will see how this proposal goes. If the train was operated as one through, with one crew, and no need to "turn" it at WAS, it could just be another 2 night LD, though, with WAS not a lot different than Albuquerque or Denver.

 

[west point]

The only way to make a STAR - Capitol combined is to make the Capitol time depart WAS later. Now for train to FL have not studied that

 

[joelkfla]

Right. Whereas 29 currently connects to the Southwest Chief or the other western trains, I'm doubtful the new train will be able to.

I disagree. There's currently a 6 hour layover in CHI. 92 is often late into WAS, but the latest over the past 30 days was 5 hours 55 minutes, which was the only arrival over 5 hours late. And I don't think they will need the full hour that currently exists between 92's scheduled arrival in WAS and 29's departure, so even that late train probably would have made the connection to the SW Chief.

The CZ has a 5¼ hour connection in CHI. That still would have been made by all trains save for that one I mentioned.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Posting this here because my bias is the Capitol Limited. A very thorough analysis by Trains Newswire on the likely combining with the Silver Star. Positives include the obvious additional availability of Superliner equipment for other trains, but a negative is tightening supply of road-worthy Viewliner cars. Also positive is the presumption that traditional meals will now be available on the Capitol.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...ine-capitol-limited-and-silver-star-analysis/

 

[user 14106]

Posting this here because my bias is the Capitol Limited. A very thorough analysis by Trains Newswire on the likely combining with the Silver Star. Positives include the obvious additional availability of Superliner equipment for other trains, but a negative is tightening supply of road-worthy Viewliner cars. Also positive is the presumption that traditional meals will now be available on the Capitol.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...ine-capitol-limited-and-silver-star-analysis/

This analysis is interesting but ultimately the pros and cons are supported by no more evidence than what many of us have already done on Amtrak’s booking site. For example while we would hope the entire run would be traditional dining given it’s currently on the Star, there is absolutely no guarantee that they will do that and run Miami crews all the way to Chicago. So one should not automatically assume they will do so. This trains analysis is purely speculative in the same manner in which threads here have been - though in fairness to Johnston he pretty much outright says it’s pure speculation himself and so far has not gotten any official comment from Amtrak.

 

[Cal]

Posting this here because my bias is the Capitol Limited. A very thorough analysis by Trains Newswire on the likely combining with the Silver Star. Positives include the obvious additional availability of Superliner equipment for other trains, but a negative is tightening supply of road-worthy Viewliner cars. Also positive is the presumption that traditional meals will now be available on the Capitol.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...ine-capitol-limited-and-silver-star-analysis/

The article mentions a through Capitol/Eagle. When did that start and end?

 

[Amtrak25]

The article mentions a through Capitol/Eagle. When did that start and end?

I don't remember the exact dates, but for about 6 months during the pandemic.

 

[user 14106]

It was in the latter part of the pandemic when they had to drop trains back to 5 days a week after restoring them to daily from 3 days a week. When they started to ramp back up to daily operation if memory serves the first phase which happened in the spring was they did a run through of the Capitol Limited and Texas Eagle along with returning the Starlight to daily. Phase 2 which was the summer restored the Zephyr, Builder, Chief, and Lake Shore to daily and went back to normal daily ops on the Cap and Eagle without the run through. The final phase which occurred in the fall returned the Crescent and CONO to daily and brought back the Meteor which was suspended during that period. Ultimately the Meteor was last because its return got suspended for another couple weeks due to Hurricane Ian washing out a bridge on SunRail.

 

[jis]

One thing that the run through will do, that Johnson does not mention is that it will improve equipment utilization phenomenally for the single level equipment involved and possibly even for the Superliners sent to other trains.

Superliner utilization is abysmal on the Cap with a 27 hour layover at one end.

 

[Amtrak25]

One reason Amtrak literally ***** the Capitol Ltd down to 3 Superliners, even worse than the Texas Eagle, is they could not stand its horrible equipment utilization. With all the other eastern low level trains with reduced consists, they could have converted it to low level right then and there during the pandemic.

The right way to go in 2005 was to upgrade the Pennsylvanian to be the Broadway Ltd and kill the Captiol Ltd, or make it a PGH-WAS shuttle train. But Ralph von Dem Hagen talked David Gunn into this current mess. I heard he also threw a fit when Warrington extended the Three Rivers onto the B&O to Chicago in 1998.

I think Penn-DOT would have been motivated to put the 2nd PGH frequency in place sooner, wanting a reliable train 42, before PSR and Hedge Funds seized control of NS and demanding a $200 million ransom.

 

[xyzzy]

Several thoughts about abolishing the Star north of DC.

• Tampa is served only by the Star, so this move requires anyone traveling between Tampa and Baltimore-NY to change trains at DC. Changing trains at DC is no joy because waiting areas are typically crammed and unpleasant. No checked baggage service for those folks, either, even if they're paying big bucks for a sleeper south of DC. There are other stations (Southern Pines, Columbia, etc) served only by the Star that will face the same challenge.
• 79 and 89 originate NY early in the morning. For passengers from NY-NJ-Philly, 91 doesn't require getting up so early. Well, if you're leaving NY for Raleigh (for example), either get up early or make the connection in DC.
• Current schedules will take nearly 48 hours to run Chicago-Miami via DC. Is this really palatable to anyone?
• Given that 80 and 92 run nearly the same schedule from Cary onward, I had hoped one day that 92's origination would be shifted later in the day. No chance of that now.

 

[jis]

Some alternate thoughts....

• Tampa folks can connect to the Meteor at Orlando using the Thruway bus.
• Northbound people can change from 92 to 80 and get through baggage service
• Southbound from points north of WAS reasonable baggage connection would be on the Carolinian connecting at Washington DC. Yeah it is an earlier departure, but not at any unreasonable time.
• Very few people will travel the entire length from Miami to Chicago so it is not a major issue.
• It will open up myriads of new city pairs for single seat ride between the Atlantic Coast and the Midwest.
• 92 origination was not going to be shifted later to put Orlando past dinner time and Jacksonville past midnight. So not to worry, there was no chance of it even without this change.
• It will significantly improve equipment utilization for both Single Level consists and Superliners

 

[Silophant]

Having a nearly 48-hour schedule doesn't seem to make the Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, or California Zephyr unpalatable, I don't know why it would be different for the Capitol/Star. Like jis says, few people are riding a two-night train end-to-end, and those that are are well aware that it's not the fastest way between those cities.

 

[MARC Rider]

As for no on-train checked baggage service between NYC and Washington, the demand for such service has declined greatly. I've peered into the baggage cars of trains in service, and those fancy new Amfleet 2 baggage cars are usually almost completely empty. I think that operant conditioning by the airlines with their baggage fees has trained the traveling public not to expect checked baggage.

In any event, as Jis mentioned, there is checked baggage service, it's just that the bags have to be checked on the Carolinian or Palmetto (or Cardinal 3 days a week) and transferred to the Silver Star in Washington. Indeed, that's how I get checked baggage from Baltimore to Chicago if I'm riding the Capitol Limited. Your bags don't have to go on your train.

 

[thefirewarde]

Unlike corridor service, where adding a second daily service really seems to improve ridership, LD routes with a myriad of other options seem like relatively poor places to double up on service. Yes, Southern Pines loses the one seat ride to Philly and NYC, but if that's super important they can drive to Cary instead for the Carolinian, or transfer in DC. And they gain a one seat ride (very probably) to Chicago and points in between. That's actually a big boost to Raleigh and Richmond, for example - previously not only did you need to connect in DC, but the timing was too tight for a guaranteed connection. I seriously don't think the Northeast Corridor is hurting for rail service, and with the lemon of reduced capacity I think this is one of the better available ways to squeeze some lemonade out of it.

And even if it's a dismal failure operationally, it's Amtrak trying something different, attempting to improve their LD system with the resources they have and within the restrictions they have. They need to be attempting stuff like this, creating new connections within the network, looking for operational efficiencies in changing circumstances.

 

[NYP2NFL01]

This may have already been answered - will the extended Capitol LTD from CHI to MIA use Superliner or Viewliner equipment?

 

[jis]

This may have already been answered - will the extended Capitol LTD from CHI to MIA use Superliner or Viewliner equipment?

Viewliner+Amfleet. There aren't enough Superliners available to build five full train consists needed for this service.

 

[NYP2NFL01]

That's too bad. The Capitol Limited was the only Superliner train east of Chicago (other than the Auto Train of course).

 

[jis]

That's too bad. The Capitol Limited was the only Superliner train east of Chicago (other than the Auto Train of course).

Capitol Limited also requires a bunch of Superliners to sit around doing nothing for 26 hours in Washington DC. Abysmal equipment utilization. Equipment sitting in yard is not providing any service to anyone, so one should try to minimize such to only as much time as is required for servicing it.

 

[xyzzy]

Some alternate responses.

Tampa folks can connect to the Meteor at Orlando using the Thruway bus.
- Oh, that will attract a lot of folks, I'm sure. You're keen about a single seat ride but apparently not this one.

the Northbound people can change from 92 to 80 and get through baggage service
- Anyone in his/her right mind who already has a choice between 80 and 92 is riding 80 because of 92's poor timekeeping. If one happens to live in a city served by 92 but not 80, welcome to the DC layover.

Southbound from points north of WAS reasonable baggage connection would be on the Carolinian connecting at Washington DC. Yeah it is an earlier departure, but not at any unreasonable time.
- Making an 0700 departure from NYP with baggage that you cannot drag on the subway isn't easy unless you live in Manhattan.

Very few people will travel the entire length from Miami to Chicago so it is not a major issue. It will open up myriads of new city pairs for single seat ride between the Atlantic Coast and the Midwest.
- I'm not convinced and I heard these same arguments about the Floridian. Train times for 30/31 through much of the Midwest are unfavorable. The only cities that really stand to gain are Chicago and Pittsburgh (for those people who can get to the Pittsburgh station before 5 a.m.).

 

[thefirewarde]

If there's slim to no through passengers and mostly people making intermediate connections, then the intermediate connections are just about all duplicated, and ALL broken through connections have some kind of alternative.

If the near full distance ride is important, most of the riders still have a train available, and a LOT of Chicago riders and, via connecting train, Midwest riders gain better access to Florida and the Southeast (and vice versa).

Finally, because they're losing the track slot out of NYC regardless, this is a really valuable test. This is by far the easiest NEW LD route to create in the entire country - they're about to be building bilevel LD cars so they can actually source equipment. There's already stations along the entire route. They have crew and maintenance bases. They "only" need to deal with track capacity and scheduling - certainly not trivial, but years faster than any other route. And they don't have to take a leap of faith, they actually get to make the connection possible for a while and see how people use it, then if it makes sense they or others can push for it.

Regardless it's a better situation than just truncating the Star in DC.