New York Penn Station v3.0

[jis]

https://nypost.com/2023/05/17/msg-n...theater-to-make-way-for-penn-station-glow-up/

 

[Amtrak25]

Those who want MSG banished from the area choose to forget why public transit exists. The farther it is moved from its current location, the less apt people will use public transit to get to it and the more apt they will drive to it. Keep that in mind if they are forced to move to the Meadowlands, Flushing, or the south Bronx. Non commuting passengers ride trains for a purpose, which does not include gawking at a McKim, Mead & White building, whether it be Moynihan Concourse or a replicated 1910 Penn Station head house.

 

[user 14106]

I have to agree moving MSG out of Manhattan and out of a location convenient to transit would be short sighted and moving it elsewhere in Manhattan wouldn't likely be feasible. I think more modest improvements as planned to give Penn a bit of a facelift for commuters but keep MSG where it is seem to be the more reasonable approach. And Moynihan has worked out as a good compromise to provide those passengers waiting for a while for a transfer or train departure a nicer facility with more amenities. It isn't perfect being off centered from the platforms but many other stations like Washington and Boston aren't either and require "schlepping" so it's "good enough." It works fine as the "grand headhouse" we don't need another across the street.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

At this point NYP has been a dingy dump longer than it was a grand station so rewarding MSG with another half-century of uninterrupted residence in exchange for an extravagant new entrance makes sense to me. If we fail to protect mediocrity now when will we save it?

 

[BlackDiamond]

At this point NYP has been a dingy dump longer than it was a grand station so rewarding MSG with another half-century of uninterrupted residence in exchange for an extravagant new entrance makes sense to me. If we fail to protect mediocrity now when will we save it?

It's not a question of rewarding or punishing MSG, it is what makes the most sense from a transit standpoint. Like it or not MSG is (or should be) a major traffic generator when there are events scheduled there and it is better to make handling those events easier rather than pushing the arena out to the Meadowlands and having everyone drive to it.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It's not a question of rewarding or punishing MSG, it is what makes the most sense from a transit standpoint. Like it or not MSG is (or should be) a major traffic generator when there are events scheduled there and it is better to make handling those events easier rather than pushing the arena out to the Meadowlands and having everyone drive to it.

Fair enough but a lot can happen over the course of a half-century. Is a shiny new retail-focused entrance for the same old transit dungeon worth granting a lease so long it will outlive most of the forum and tie the hands of those who come after us? Only New Yorkers can say for sure.

 

[jis]

Fair enough but a lot can happen over the course of a half-century. Is a shiny new retail-focused entrance for the same old transit dungeon worth granting a lease so long it will outlive most of the forum and tie the hands of those who come after us? Only New Yorkers can say for sure.

You may wish to visit the evolving new facility before passing harsh judgements based on out of date experience.

 

[MARC Rider]

I don't have memories of the old Penn Station, but when I first visited the replacement in 1968, I thought it was pretty cool in a science-fiction-y sort of way. The escalator ride down from the old taxi entrance on Pennsylvania Plaza (now closed to vehicles) I thought was pretty impressive. Of course, over the decades it got a little grungy, er, I should say a "patina of age" made it look a bit rundown. I passed through there a month ago, and it seems that the old station has been cleaned up a good deal. In fact, if you don't need passenger services, you might find it more convenient to use the ticketed passenger waiting area in the old station and board trains from the old escalators, all of which are still in use, and may also take you down closer to the part of the train you're riding in.

 

[Amtrak25]

Unless I am taking a train to Canada and need to go though passport and ticket security theatre with the Gate Dragons, there is no need to schlep to Moynihan. The Amtrak ticketed seating area is fine and one can get a cheaper sandwich in one of the concessions there than the overpriced ones in Moynihan.

I don't have memories of the old Penn Station, but when I first visited the replacement in 1968, I thought it was pretty cool in a science-fiction-y sort of way. The escalator ride down from the old taxi entrance on Pennsylvania Plaza (now closed to vehicles) I thought was pretty impressive. Of course, over the decades it got a little grungy, er, I should say a "patina of age" made it look a bit rundown. I passed through there a month ago, and it seems that the old station has been cleaned up a good deal. In fact, if you don't need passenger services, you might find it more convenient to use the ticketed passenger waiting area in the old station and board trains from the old escalators, all of which are still in use, and may also take you down closer to the part of the train you're riding in.

I have vague memories of it. (it is also where I stocked up in western RR timetable that I still have). It was dingy, rather seatless, had a huge taxi court within along 7th Avenue between 31st and 32nd Street, which would have been rendered usless after 9/11/01. There was no HVAC and quite unpleasant on hot, humid days. It would be far worse today with air conditioned trains emitting hot air like subway tunnels have become. The LIRR Concourse was always disgusting.

 

[jis]

Penn Station upgrade proceeding even without the office towers

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/vi...ochul-elected-officials-and-railroad-partners

 

[nferr]

It's not a question of rewarding or punishing MSG, it is what makes the most sense from a transit standpoint. Like it or not MSG is (or should be) a major traffic generator when there are events scheduled there and it is better to make handling those events easier rather than pushing the arena out to the Meadowlands and having everyone drive to it.

MSG is not moving to the Meadowlands. There's locations nearby to the present site in Manhattan that have been mentioned as possibilities if they move.

 

[jis]

https://www.railwayage.com/passenge...tion-design-kicks-off-with-notice-to-proceed/

 

[PaTrainFan]

Then there's this....sorry it may be behind the paywall...

NYTimes: Private Firm Announces Competing Vision for Penn Station Redesign

 

[jis]

Then there's this....sorry it may be behind the paywall...

NYTimes: Private Firm Announces Competing Vision for Penn Station Redesign

All that this starts to indicate is that the whole thing will be delayed by a decade or two while people argue with each other some more. This is quite normal for New York

Anyhow, here they are together...

https://www.curbed.com/2023/06/penn-station-plans-astm-mta-msg.html

 

[PaTrainFan]

Here is a very detailed look at the competing redevelopment plans for Penn Station from the New York Times' architecture critic. I think this is a free link.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Here is a very detailed look at the competing redevelopment plans for Penn Station from the New York Times' architecture critic. I think this is a free link.

The comments are, um, interesting.

 

[jis]

https://www.railwayage.com/passenge...n-station-renovation-opens-up-lirr-concourse/

 

[Manny T]

NY Penn Station Renovation Opens Up LIRR Concourse - Railway Age​

The approximately $400 million project to modernize and widen New York Penn Station’s Long Island Railroad (LIRR) 33rd Street concourse is now complete, AECOM, Skanska and Skidmore, Owings & Merrill (SOM) reported

www.railwayage.com

Thank you for posting this. I was there last week and can confirm this is what it looks like, and better from other angles. For background, I commuted on the LIRR for a decade; now I use Penn/Moynihan for my long distance travel on Amtrak, so I have some familiarity with what it was and what it is. The Penn-Moynihan complex can still be maze-like to some -- although there is pretty good signage that one can follow. No-one would describe the place today as dingy or grungy --that is a complete anachronism. Moynihan is a visual delight. It's spotless, bright, modern, inviting, and well-lit, and the elimination of seating except for ticketed passengers and in the food court (and Metro Lounge, of course), has pretty much eliminated loiterers. The old Penn Station is quite improved as shown in the photo and accompanying article. And I don't think they're done by any means, nor are all the shops and restaurants tenanted at this point, so there's more to come.

 

[Fenway]

An updated review of where things stand

https://www.sportico.com/business/r...n-station-redevelopment-explainer-1234731355/

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Today is the big vote at city council, whether to renew MSG's lease. Funding the MTA plan for Penn Station would be helped a lot by one or two billion in concessions from MSG's owner the Dolans. The alternative plan by ASTM/HOK would require buying and demolishing the Felt Forum (a.k.a. Hulu, now back to "The Theater at MSG").

Peter Cipriano of ASTM has a cogent and very interesting interview here: EXCLUSIVE: Top Exec at ASTM Fires Back at MTA Critic over Penn Station Plans He's selling a project, so the questions could have been sharper, but overall it added much information I've been wondering about. For instance, that's where I got the tidbit that MTA's plan would look for money from renewing MSG's lease, which maybe I'd forgotten from other sources.

So the ASTM/HOK plan is a public-private partnership, and includes a 50 year contract for managing the station. Easy to see the MTA would be gruff about that. This contract is solely in return for design and planning work? Or is ASTM bringing investment money to the table, as in the types of P3's that build toll roads with bills coming to your mailbox from an Australian company? I'd call Brightline a P3 as it increasingly looks to public funding, and always had the tax-free bonds and other help. The ASTM project seems superior to the MTA plan, and Cipriano says the first meeting he had was with MSG! That sounds good, certainly convenient to the narrative.

P3's have not always worked out well, but neither has the MTA. Ideally, public agencies should be responsible for public goods if we're spending public dollars. Yet the MTA is pretty tough. At one point it bragged it had the detailed plans to existing Penn, and ASTM would have to recreate them on its own.

A constructive battle perhaps. Another glimmer of hope is that there seems to be room now for politicians to claim they've brought it public projects "on time and on budget." Specifically the NY governor on the recently completed LIRR concourse, removing massive old beams and pillars on both sides of 8th Avenue (as I recall it). And the more risky approach of the previous NY governor big-footing the L-train East River tunnel rehab project.

 

[eldomtom2]

From a European perspective, I'm surprised that all the plans seem to take it as given that the platforms will remain totally underground. Is there no way to squeeze a bit of natural light into them?

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

From a European perspective, I'm surprised that all the plans seem to take it as given that the platforms will remain totally underground. Is there no way to squeeze a bit of natural light into them?

The plan that included demolishing the MSG arena over Penn Station included natural light to the platforms, see the picture here: Kathy Hochul is preparing to relocate Madison Square Garden But that was January 2022, ancient history! The governor no longer supports it.

Air rights are valuable in Manhattan, and arcane to a legendary degree. The museum director at MOMA almost got fired (or did?) over an air rights deal. In Washington, it did come up when Amtrak for a quick cash infusion a decade ago sold the rights over the open air platforms at Union Station. But there is still room to build a massive concourse over the tracks, all the way to H Street. Which really should be done first as a separate project, considering the state of the present small concourse. But generally, air rights are a New York thing, more than anywhere else, or at least more complicated, with property laws and deals with the regulators to promote favored development. They are "transferred" in chunks.

I do find myself craving the above ground, and sometimes walk or hop on a bus as soon as I "scuttle into" NYC.

 

[Lcon]

From a European perspective, I'm surprised that all the plans seem to take it as given that the platforms will remain totally underground. Is there no way to squeeze a bit of natural light into them?

Not without razing MSG, probably Moynihan hall and a few other buildings. Old Penn Station intentionally put the Railroad platforms under street level. When they committed the crime of demolishing old Pen the platform’s were converted into the basis of the modern Penn and the modern development closed in.
The most realistic plans are trying to color inside the lines of Manhattan as it exists.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

The city council committee voted for a five year extension to the lease, a compromise between three and ten. MSG wanted 50 or perpetual. No mention of the MTA tapping MSG funds for its plan, but there are vague conditions for transportation planning. One council member said it was impossible to understand, but she assumed that was due to Cuomo-era "poison pills," the nature of which was not described, or perhaps, known. Negotiations went on all day.

Although MTA tapping MSG funding was not mentioned in the news reports I read, the Daily News ran an editorial lambasting Amtrak and NJT for wanting to build Penn South. That is, the New York Daily News. Headline: "Fixing Penn Station means curbing Amtrak more than dealing with MSG's future."

Someone else said skip the station and build Penn South and fix the platforms instead.

 

[Amtrak25]

I believe the series of Daily News editorials has a blind author who is a fired, disgruntled ex-LIRR management employee 20 years back with an academic RIT engineering background. Jamaica HQ had a party the day he left.

Since MTA is off limits to him, he channels his rage at anything New Jersey as a waste of money and unnecessary, which includes rebuilding Perth Amboy, Portal Bridges, and Penn Station South. He has also thrown temper tantrums at NJT Board public meeting forums. So he is hated by Amtrak, NJT, and LIRR.

To handle 18 more trans Hudson trains per hour, he says build the link to Grand Central, trivializing it as though it were like building a passing siding. Even if it were physically possible, and it is not, it does not solve the problem of handling 18 more trains per hour.

Then we have the Nothink, uhm Rethink group saying thru run everything to the LIRR as though Gateway can morph into Crossrail, yet not changing so much as a crosstie east of 7th Avenue. They have no grasp of reality on how to run it.