New York Penn Station v3.0

[nferr]

From a European perspective, I'm surprised that all the plans seem to take it as given that the platforms will remain totally underground. Is there no way to squeeze a bit of natural light into them?

Well, there's no way you're going to have train tracks running at above ground level through Manhattan.

 

[Amtrak25]

Well, there's no way you're going to have train tracks running at above ground level through Manhattan.

He may be thinkling of the open cut east of 12th Ave that has recently been covered over by buildings. Other than that, there is no hope.

 

[jis]

Well, there's no way you're going to have train tracks running at above ground level through Manhattan.

I think he may be thinking of how stations like Berlin Hauptbahnof or Antwerp run through tracks where tracks and platforms below ground level are able to get some daylight through openings above.

Of course in New York they quickly covered up whatever little opening was still there.

 

[railiner]

They never moved the Metro North tracks, north of 96th Street, underground...guess not enough political pressure in that area to do so.

 

[Eric S]

I think he may be thinking of how stations like Berlin Hauptbahnof or Antwerp run through tracks where tracks and platforms below ground level are able to get some daylight through openings above.

Of course in New York they quickly covered up whatever little opening was still there.

Or maybe thinking of SEPTA's Jefferson Station, also underground but with an amount of natural light.

 

[jis]

Or maybe thinking of SEPTA's Jefferson Station, also underground but with an amount of natural light.

The OP specifically mentioned the "European perspective" though

 

[Amtrak25]

Thank you for posting this. I was there last week and can confirm this is what it looks like, and better from other angles. For background, I commuted on the LIRR for a decade; now I use Penn/Moynihan for my long distance travel on Amtrak, so I have some familiarity with what it was and what it is. The Penn-Moynihan complex can still be maze-like to some -- although there is pretty good signage that one can follow. No-one would describe the place today as dingy or grungy --that is a complete anachronism. Moynihan is a visual delight. It's spotless, bright, modern, inviting, and well-lit, and the elimination of seating except for ticketed passengers and in the food court (and Metro Lounge, of course), has pretty much eliminated loiterers. The old Penn Station is quite improved as shown in the photo and accompanying article. And I don't think they're done by any means, nor are all the shops and restaurants tenanted at this point, so there's more to come.

The new escalator bank out of the LIRR concourse to 7th Avenue itself brings in a lot of sunlight.

That said, I have no use for Moynihan. I live in NJ, NJT doesn't go there, and it is off the beaten path.

The Amtrak ticketed waiting room in legacy Penn Station is bright, clean, more seating, and little crowding to get on Amtrak since the sheep have migrated to Moynihan per instructions, so there are no more Gate Dragons here, but at Moynihan yelling at people to stand in a straight line and show their e-tickets.

 

[MARC Rider]

but at Moynihan yelling at people to stand in a straight line and show their e-tickets.

To be fair, the gate dragons don't ask passengers to show their tickets.

 

[Amtrak25]

To be fair, the gate dragons don't ask passengers to show their tickets.

Yes they do. That was my experience boarding train 69 in late July (no Canada at that point). It was like elementary school with them.

 

[jis]

Yes they do. That was my experience boarding train 69 in late July (no Canada at that point). It was like elementary school with them.

Ushers got to Ush.

I think it varies. In my recent passages through Moynihan, I have not been asked to show a ticket, so as usual the only consistent thing is inconsistency.

 

[Steve4031]

It seems to me that it would be easy to avoid gate dragons by using the platform entrances on the level below the departure levels in the old Penn station. I did that a few times to ensure a window seat. I don't know if it would be possible to use this tactic to bypass the passport check for the Adirondack.

 

[Amtrak25]

It seems to me that it would be easy to avoid gate dragons by using the platform entrances on the level below the departure levels in the old Penn station. I did that a few times to ensure a window seat. I don't know if it would be possible to use this tactic to bypass the passport check for the Adirondack.

That's overkill. There's no Gate Dragons at all even at the legacy main concourse. Just check it out to make sure the escalators are running down.

I wouldn't try that if going to Canada, however laborious and stupid their process is.

 

[blueman271]

It seems to me that it would be easy to avoid gate dragons by using the platform entrances on the level below the departure levels in the old Penn station. I did that a few times to ensure a window seat. I don't know if it would be possible to use this tactic to bypass the passport check for the Adirondack.

This can be done in Moynihan as well. Once the track is posted simply head down to the West End Concourse and access your track from there. No lines and no gate dragons.

 

[user 14106]

This can be done in Moynihan as well. Once the track is posted simply head down to the West End Concourse and access your track from there. No lines and no gate dragons.

Or use the elevators or ask for a red cap. I have never once been asked to show a ticket at Moynihan by the escalator attendants. Usually I’m one of the first in line as I usually am coming from the lounge - though I like the new island bar in Moynihan so sometimes I go there instead of the lounge.

 

[eldomtom2]

In further news on the various proposals for a redesigned Penn Station, notorious crayonista Alon Levy (generally considered to be associated with RethinkNYC) has released a 3d model of their design for a Penn Station which demolishes Madison Square Garden and Two Penn Plaza in their entirety to allow for daylight to the platforms: Penn Station 3D Model

 

[Amtrak25]

I have other adjectives to define Alon Levy, but I would be scolded severely to write them here.

RethinkNYC has been been dismissed as a bunch of kooks by the MTA with no grasp with reality and with their heads somewhere (you can guess where), so forget about them.

Levy would like to fire anyone who does not take up his schemes.

Where does he put MSG ? The Meadowlands ? The Bronx ?

Penn Plaza 2 is being rebuilt as we speak.
https://newyorkyimby.com/2023/08/co...s-at-two-penn-plaza-in-midtown-manhattan.html

 

[user 14106]

Unfortunately Penn station/Madison square garden is one of those genies that simply can’t be put back in the bottle. The architectural loss was certainly tragic but it led to laws to preserve similar landmark historic and architecturally notable structures. One also must remember that the railroad hadn’t been able to properly maintain it for years and it was falling apart so what happened was inevitable unless someone at some level of government or a private interest had come forward to purchase the property and do a massive restoration and commitment to keep the place up. Now that Madison Square Garden is where it is with the relevant transit connections moving it would be illogical as much as people would love to build a new head house. I think there’s certainly things that can be done to improve things like what LIRR just did to their concourse but moving MSG simply doesn’t make sense. While far from perfect Moynihan serves the purpose just fine of having a symbolic headhouse and for those looking for a nicer experience waiting for trains than what’s offered in the station underneath MSG. The focus now needs to be on the infrastructure.

 

[PVD]

The minute someone insists there must be through running you know they are disconnected from the realities of the NYC Metropolitan Area. Aside from the labor, power system, and signal system issues, until the world changes, only a very small number of folks want to go to NJ in the morning from points East and to Long Island from West of Manhattan. Running expensive empty trains to solve a problem that has better solutions available is laughable. Gee, can't imagine why so few people with any sense take this guy seriously. The vast majority of people traversing the complex are commuters not LD travelers, they want to get in and get out. Make it suitable for that, not for images on postcards to sell to tourists.

 

[Amtrak25]

The minute someone insists there must be through running you know they are disconnected from the realities of the NYC Metropolitan Area. Aside from the labor, power system, and signal system issues, until the world changes, only a very small number of folks want to go to NJ in the morning from points East and to Long Island from West of Manhattan. Running expensive empty trains to solve a problem that has better solutions available is laughable. Gee, can't imagine why so few people with any sense take this guy seriously. The vast majority of people traversing the complex are commuters not LD travelers, they want to get in and get out. Make it suitable for that, not for images on postcards to sell to tourists.

I was in yet another "discussion" with a bunch of foamers on thru-running on a NYC Reddit group this morning.

They can't grasp it is physically impossible, no concept of throughput analysis on trunk lines, universal inter-operable equipment that does not exist, junk all existing rolling stock, just the excuse "eveybody else in the world does it" - NO they don't. They forgot Grand Central Madison exists and that anything with a pantograph can't go there. Forgot that Gateway is not an MTA project, so why should LIRR be replacing their fleet of 1,000 MU cars and spend billions while they do not have a capacity problem to start with.

If they can get through the East River tunnels to Sunnyside, then they can go to LI just as easily - NO THEY CAN'T. There is this little thing called Harold Interlocking, the most complex, congested switching complex in North America leading onto LIRR's 3+1 peak direction operation. They didn't understand that either. Crayonistas only see Penn Station, nothing more. They view Penn Station as BMT Dekalb Avenue.

Another clown said the objection to Manhattan Congestion Pricing is that someone can't drive from NJ to LI to visit grandma. Uhm, those people drive across Staten Island and the Bronx, not Manhattan below 60th Street. You can also walk from track 4 to track 18 in 2 minutes.

So it is foamers looking for excuses to run equipment all over the place and horrified that Penn Station South will cost $12 Billion. No price tag on their goofy schemes though.

 

[Austin17]

The minute someone insists there must be through running you know they are disconnected from the realities of the NYC Metropolitan Area. Aside from the labor, power system, and signal system issues, until the world changes, only a very small number of folks want to go to NJ in the morning from points East and to Long Island from West of Manhattan. Running expensive empty trains to solve a problem that has better solutions available is laughable. Gee, can't imagine why so few people with any sense take this guy seriously. The vast majority of people traversing the complex are commuters not LD travelers, they want to get in and get out. Make it suitable for that, not for images on postcards to sell to tourists.

What are these better solutions? I sure hope that's not referring to Penn South.

 

[PVD]

Despite its flaws, Penn South is still better than running empty trains at enormous cost for no reason.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The minute someone insists there must be through running you know they are disconnected from the realities of the NYC Metropolitan Area. Aside from the labor, power system, and signal system issues, until the world changes, only a very small number of folks want to go to NJ in the morning from points East and to Long Island from West of Manhattan. Running expensive empty trains to solve a problem that has better solutions available is laughable. Gee, can't imagine why so few people with any sense take this guy seriously. The vast majority of people traversing the complex are commuters not LD travelers, they want to get in and get out. Make it suitable for that, not for images on postcards to sell to tourists.

Through running for a commuter/regional rail system only makes sense if you can use it to eliminate multiple stub end terminals, provide multiple downtown destinations, and make operation more efficient. A classic example would be Philadelphia's center city tunnel that allowed elimination of stub ended terminals at Suburban and Reading Terminal with most trains now serving 4 downtown destinations (30th st, suburban, Jefferson, and Temple U). Neither of these situations apply to NYC as there already is one terminal station and there are no other stations in Manhattan to be served. Through running is not generally intended for people to travel between locations outside of downtown as its main goal. In most cases cross platform transfer provides for that for the few cases where it is needed.

 

[Amtrak25]

The planners and subway fans in NYC love the idea of thru running of commuter trains. First, they do not understand commuter rail is not a subway. Second, they liken it to the 1967 Christie Street connection merging some (not all) IND and BMT operations.

So the IND D and BMT Q trains were merged into a thru D service, as was the IND BB with the BMT T trains into a thru B service, screwing service between South Brooklyn and Broadway and its connections. So they got to foam at R32's on the IND in the Bronx amd IND R1's on the BMT in Brooklyn.

The Southern Division BMT operations have been an unreliable mess ever since despite the routing permuations being since dumbed down. The current R train between the Queens Blvd IND and the BMT 4th Avenue subway is a horror show to this day, and that route has been around since the late 1950's.

 

[MARC Rider]

Through running for a commuter/regional rail system only makes sense if you can use it to eliminate multiple stub end terminals, provide multiple downtown destinations, and make operation more efficient. A classic example would be Philadelphia's center city tunnel that allowed elimination of stub ended terminals at Suburban and Reading Terminal with most trains now serving 4 downtown destinations (30th st, suburban, Jefferson, and Temple U). Neither of these situations apply to NYC as there already is one terminal station and there are no other stations in Manhattan to be served. Through running is not generally intended for people to travel between locations outside of downtown as its main goal. In most cases cross platform transfer provides for that for the few cases where it is needed.

Another thing about Philadelphia is that the lines running out of the two stub terminals were (and are still) run by the same entity, SEPTA, which has the same power on both sides and for which the equipment was and is interchangeable. Also, very few people ride through from one side to another, even today. The only real advantage is that you can now ride directly from Jefferson Station (former Reading Terminal) straight through to 30th St, which makes a more convenient connection to Amtrak from the eastern side of Center City. I suppose it also allows them to better move equipment around the system. By the way, I know there are places where the former PRR and former Reading lines cross each other, but are there any other places besides the Center City tunnel where they actually interchange?