No more printed system timetables

[ScouseAndy]

At railroad.net ...

And I wrote (slightly edited):

"george o'keefe wrote (and I've chopped it down):… 1 million copies … implies a cost probably in 7 figures (if not 8). ... for this size, with some full color pages and the rest three-color process, unit costs could go well above $1, possibly close to $10. Throw in shipping costs [and postage]... pretty substantial savings for Amtrak."

And I replied (slightly edited)

A very helpful calculation. Suppose it's somehow off by twice the maximum savings. Not printing the System Timetable would then actually save just $5 million a year.

In perspective, cutting the diner from the Star may save $5 or $6 million a year, iirc. Boardman's recent memo said ridership was off system-wide, causing the operating deficit to run above budget by at least $30 million, iirc. Cost cutting is urgent.

If dropping printed System Schedules saves $5 million or only a mere $1 million, well then, it must be done.

If it causes a lost in ridership and revenue of greater value than it saves then it isn't a saving at all

 

[fairviewroad]

As HAL said; A notice was issued yesterday to employees, which was pretty verbatim to the OP message.

Thanks. Like I said, it sounded plausible and I wasn't questioning its veracity. I just like to know that there is some sort of official source.

 

[niemi24s]

Well, now you can email them the PDF and they can print it out if they want a paper copy.

You mean it hasn't sunk in yet?

These folks I'm attempting to introduce to travel by Amtrak with their own copy of System Timetable are my neighbors. They are not online, have no interest in getting online and wouldn't know what to do even if they did manage to get online. They have no internet service, PC's or any other type of PDA. We live hundreds of miles and perhaps six hours from the closest Amtrak station. These are not urban yuppies like most on this forum who live near their closest station and are in constant internet contact with their PDA's and earbuds. And even if I felt like doing so, I'm not sure my cheap little printer and I could could manage to print 141 pages in color without running out of ink or patience.

And while there is an Office Max/Office Depot about 25 miles away, I'm fairly certain the cost of getting a System Timetable printed and bound would make them say "Forget it!"

Has it sunk in now?

 

[jis]

So how many of your neighbors have you convinced to take an Amtrak trip using the printed timetables as the sole tool, and what was the net additional revenue? Just curious.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Personally, I'd think some of the books "out there" about Amtrak and rail travel would be more convincing the the system time table. In fact, I'd think the timetables may make it all look too confusing for a newbie.

A couple of examples

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/amtrak-across-america-john-a-fostik/1113060830?ean=9781583882979#productInfoTabs

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/all-aboard-jim-loomis/1101368149?ean=9781569761892

 

[A Voice]

And while there is an Office Max/Office Depot about 25 miles away, I'm fairly certain the cost of getting a System Timetable printed and bound would make them say "Forget it!"

Has it sunk in now?

Personally, I'd think some of the books "out there" about Amtrak and rail travel would be more convincing the the system time table. In fact, I'd think the timetables may make it all look too confusing for a newbie.

A couple of examples

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/amtrak-across-america-john-a-fostik/1113060830?ean=9781583882979#productInfoTabs

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/all-aboard-jim-loomis/1101368149?ean=9781569761892

The books may be great, but the critical difference is that there is a charge for the books, while the national timetable was free upon request. How many hotels, resorts, or travel oriented companies do you know which charge for their brochures?

Automobile manufacturers distribute attractive, color, glossy booklets just hoping to sell you a car.

Cruise lines distribute attractive, color, glossy booklets just hoping you'll book a cruise.

Amtrak - a transportation company - doesn't distribute a system timetable, apparently hoping the potential customer will search out the information online for themselves. Marketing doesn't work that way.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Amtrak - a transportation company - doesn't distribute a system timetable, apparently hoping the potential customer will search out the information online for themselves. Marketing doesn't work that way.

Pretty shoddy marketing, if your marketing mainly consists of a printed book that you largely find when you're already inside an Amtrak station.

 

[trainman74]

Automobile manufacturers distribute attractive, color, glossy booklets just hoping to sell you a car.

Cruise lines distribute attractive, color, glossy booklets just hoping you'll book a cruise.

From what I've seen, both entities have really cut down on these in recent years, because all the information is available online.

Amtrak - a transportation company - doesn't distribute a system timetable, apparently hoping the potential customer will search out the information online for themselves. Marketing doesn't work that way.

I wonder if they'll produce something along the lines of the old "Amtrak America"/"Amtrak Travel Planner" brochures which contained general information about the routes, details of "what it's like on a train," and so on -- just not actual schedules. That's actually a better analog to the auto and cruise brochures than the system timetable.

 

[jis]

A National Timetable is not a marketing brochure. I agree that it would be a good idea to create and make available marketing brochures for the national network, like for example NYSDOT does for the Empire Service. It could be something along the lines of the Amtrak Vacation brochure that already exists.

 

[niemi24s]

A National Timetable is not a marketing brochure.

I disagree. It may not have been originally intended to be a marketing brochure, but I can use it for anything I so desire. Anything. Get one sent to others. Line the bottom of the bird cage. Whatever I choose, as long as they remain available.

 

[jis]

Even if the whole thing costs several million dollars to just give your friends to line their bird cage. I guess we will just agree to disagree and carry on with life, won't we?

 

[west point]

This dropping of the national timetable is making an assumption not based in fact. Not every one will or can use the internet. To make persons who do not use the internet IMO is discrimination. What about Quakers, Amish, and others who do not believe in it ? For those who live too far from a node land line internet is not possible.

Many persons are not computer savvy also. Would be an interesting suit under ADA as well.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Many persons are not computer savvy also. Would be an interesting suit under ADA as well.

Where would this fall under ADA?

 

[jebr]

The individual route schedules are not being discontinued as far as I know. If someone needs a printed schedule those are available for them.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I believe the issue is there won't be any more national timetables printed. I believe there will still be local timetables printed and available in stations to pick up and I can get the schedules of the trains that serve my area at my local station. If I do LD travels, I can pick up schedules when I travel there. I'm thinking most of us don't need every single Amtrak schedule in print form.

 

[JayPea]

How do the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers and the like along with the non-tech savvy or those with no access to the Internet fly without printed timetables? In fact as has been noted earlier, many airlines don't even have downloadable timetables. Those folks find a way to travel by plane without any problems.

 

[neroden]

Honestly, it's a mistake to *never* print National Timetables, but when the timetable hasn't really changed significantly in years...

Next time Amtrak adds three new services at once, I think they should go all out and print a special edition of the National Timetable, emphasizing all the new connections which are possible. Here's hoping that happens in my lifetime.

 

[chakk]

Take good care of that collection-you have a National Treasure as they say on that PBS appraisal show. A friend of mine in Dallas has put together one of the world's leading collection of Airline Timetables and is terrified to think what that might be worth! I consider myself lucky for when I was a younglin I regularly went around to the travel agencies in Arlington Heights, IL and gathered up timetables and salted them away. Unfortunately when I went off to college and the folks closed the house, many were disposed of, but many still survive in my collection

I only wish I could have gotten some of the floor standing display models!

In 1956 on one of my many nearly annual summer LD train trips through Chicago (Grand Central and C&NW stations), I stopped in the C&NW station ticket office and plucked two of every railroad system timetable on display in their rack -- one for me and one for my oldest brother who was not on that trip. Sadly, I lost track of all of my set from that Golden Era.

 

[Gulfwind2]

Take good care of that collection-you have a National Treasure as they say on that PBS appraisal show. A friend of mine in Dallas has put together one of the world's leading collection of Airline Timetables and is terrified to think what that might be worth! I consider myself lucky for when I was a younglin I regularly went around to the travel agencies in Arlington Heights, IL and gathered up timetables and salted them away. Unfortunately when I went off to college and the folks closed the house, many were disposed of, but many still survive in my collection

I only wish I could have gotten some of the floor standing display models!

In 1956 on one of my many nearly annual summer LD train trips through Chicago (Grand Central and C&NW stations), I stopped in the C&NW station ticket office and plucked two of every railroad system timetable on display in their rack -- one for me and one for my oldest brother who was not on that trip. Sadly, I lost track of all of my set from that Golden Era.

Let me ask a question which only means something to those who weren't alive in the pre-Amtrak days. In 1956 could anyone have foreseen that there would be a time when there was no passenger rail system timetable in circulation at all? Or did anyone even anticipate that the passenger trains would lose the fight they were fighting in the 50's against the highways and airlines?

 

[afigg]

How do the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers and the like along with the non-tech savvy or those with no access to the Internet fly without printed timetables? In fact as has been noted earlier, many airlines don't even have downloadable timetables. Those folks find a way to travel by plane without any problems.

Quakers? There may be a few meeting houses or groups who might be connected to the Society of Friends that reject modern technology, but Quakers as a group live in the modern world. Quakers are an entirely different religion and cultural group from the Amish and Mennonites, don't mix them.

As for Amish and Mennonites that don't use modern technology or electricity at home, there is the greater question of how they will be able to travel, shop, and interact with the modern world as it moves increasingly on-line and to computers. Everything from paying taxes & bills, buying goods or property, filling out government documents, travel by bus or train. Amtrak moving the system timetable to a PDF version only is just a small part of a long term shift to moving away from paper documents, forms, and tickets to all electronic formats.

I was in DC Union Station several months ago, exiting from the Metro station. I stopped by a fare vending machine in the Metro station to add a few bucks to my Smartrip card and saw what appeared to be an Amish family or group looking at one of the fare machines trying to figure it out. They looked to be at a lost. To be fair, that is a common response of tourists when they try to use the Metro vending machines for the first time with the bewildering table of station to station fares at the top, instructions all over the front, and the limited display and interface. But the Amish family looked to be totally lost. They had presumably arrived on Amtrak and were going to visit someplace in DC. I thought about trying to help them, but I had to catch an Amtrak train. I hope they were able to get assistance from the Metro station attendant or another passerby on how to buy Smartrip cards (with cash) and navigate the Metro system.

In an age where the modern world is increasingly moving to a cashless system except for small purchases, to smart phones, navigation apps, and the internet, how are the Amish, Mennonites, and people that don't use modern technology, going to be able to travel or deal with the rest of the world in 10, 20, 30 years? Going to be ever more difficult.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

hey looked to be at a lost. To be fair, that is a common response of tourists when they try to use the Metro vending machines for the first time with the bewildering table of station to station fares at the top, instructions all over the front, and the limited display and interface.

Are you sure it wasn't me. :giggle: When I was down there in March I wanted to load some $$ on my SmartCard, which I had gotten when I was down there last year for the gathering. I was a little confused as to which machine to use because of all the different instructions.

Back in 2012, I was trying to find the Reagan/National airport on the list to know how much ticket I needed to buy.

 

[Carolina Special]

I was totally lost myself last November when I used the Smartcard in DC for the first time. And I'm not even Amish. Or particularly smart in the use of transit cards...

I had enough trouble with the fare cards and they had to get rid of those.

 

[tricia]

Next time Amtrak adds three new services at once, I think they should go all out and print a special edition of the National Timetable, emphasizing all the new connections which are possible. Here's hoping that happens in my lifetime.

Arguably, we need printed national timetables more NOW, when the system is so skeletal--especially since Amtrak's online booking system doesn't reliably show all possible connections. I've spent many an hour leafing back and forth in a printed national timetable, trying to work out which (if any) trains will get me from point A to point B in a reasonable time, with layovers in places I might actually want to visit. Much harder to do that online.

I do like the cost-saving idea, floated in a previous post, of printing a pared-down (and presumably less costly) version of the national timetable by eliminating a lot of the non-timetable info such as station details, baggage rules, diagrams of roomettes, etc.

At the very least, in the absence of a printed national timetable Amtrak needs to print and widely distribute a version of the fold-out system map that's been at the front of the printed timetables, one showing the names/numbers of all the long-distance routes and perhaps on the back expanded maps of Northeast Corridor and California trains.

 

[jis]

Traditionally, national full system timetables spanning all possible routes and railroads have never been free though. The free thing is an Amtrak innovation, partly because Amtrak is the only remaining transcon passenger railroad. However it is missing whole host of very useful connections to very significant regional service that you have painstakingly hunt down.

 

[neroden]

What tricia said. The online faciliites are simply not suitable for figuring out what you can do with the Amtrak system. A printed timetable should really be geared towards... well... towards the person who's trying to *explore* what trips they might be able to take. This does, arguably, call for some radical format changes. And certainly for much less frequent printing of timetables: you only really should print timetables when major new connections become available.