No more printed system timetables

[Eric S]

At least Amtrak will still have the complete system timetables conveniently downloadable from their website, so this isn't really that bad.

Try getting a system timetable out of VIA. I don't think they have one. It was very hard even to find a timetable for a single route.

The VIA website could certainly be improved, but it still only took me a few minutes to find this 30 page October 2015 Bilingual System timetable (PDF) on their website. Don't know why they put the timetable on a brochures page (which I don't see how to click to from the pull-down menus) and not on the schedule page, but they do appear to have a system timetable buried on their website. A search for "timetables" in the VIA website search box found the brochure link.
While we may knock Amtrak's IT efforts as the underlying reservation system needs to be modernized, I will say that Amtrak's website is much better than VIA's.

Thank you. I had not managed to find VIA's extremely well-hidden system timetable in over three years of searching.

Wow, glad to know it exists. I had never been able to find it either.

 

[dlagrua]

No more printed timetables is like everything else in American business that is being cut. Years back the printing and paper cost was on them, now the printing and paper cost is on you!

 

[railiner]

While I readily admit to lamenting the loss of the National Timetables, in reality, I believe the people that miss them the most are timetable collector's. You can still get printed copies of the different routes, and still get the information in one place electronically.

That said, mention was made in an earlier post about the ads included in the system timetable...wouldn't it be possible to push for more ads or a sustaining major sponsor to pick up the entire cost of publishing a system timetable?

Isn't that the case for the "seat-pocket" magazine ("Arrive")? I don't believe it costs Amtrak anything to distribute that publication....

Perhaps they even earn some revenue for distributing it...

 

[mlhughes0522]

Make since but what if someone don't have computer or iPad like older adults how they get schedule?

 

[Eric S]

Make since but what if someone don't have computer or iPad like older adults how they get schedule?

I think you're saying "It makes sense but what if someone doesn't have a computer or iPad (like older adults)? How are they supposed to get schedules?"

If so, as has been mentioned here, individual route schedules are still available in print form. And one can still call Amtrak by phone. Older adults manage to travel by bus and plane, and bus lines and airlines have generally stopped providing printed system timetables.

 

[neroden]

Make since but what if someone don't have computer or iPad like older adults how they get schedule?

I think you're saying "It makes sense but what if someone doesn't have a computer or iPad (like older adults)? How are they supposed to get schedules?"

If so, as has been mentioned here, individual route schedules are still available in print form. And one can still call Amtrak by phone. Older adults manage to travel by bus and plane, and bus lines and airlines have generally stopped providing printed system timetables.

Which is part of why I haven't taken an intercity bus in years, incidentally. I don't take routes which don't have timetables. Ever. This is way more common than you might think. This rules out Trailways which doesn't publish schedules. Greyhound doesn't follow any useful route where I am. Shortline still publishes a schedule.

 

[Eric S]

I think it's rather ridiculous that so few intercity bus lines have full schedules available online (rather than just point-to-point schedules). Too much effort to produce and update them?

At the same time, there is also a not insignificant portion of the public which cannot read and understand a timetable - for them, point-to-point schedules are all that work.

 

[railiner]

Make since but what if someone don't have computer or iPad like older adults how they get schedule?

I think you're saying "It makes sense but what if someone doesn't have a computer or iPad (like older adults)? How are they supposed to get schedules?"

If so, as has been mentioned here, individual route schedules are still available in print form. And one can still call Amtrak by phone. Older adults manage to travel by bus and plane, and bus lines and airlines have generally stopped providing printed system timetables.

Which is part of why I haven't taken an intercity bus in years, incidentally. I don't take routes which don't have timetables. Ever. This is way more common than you might think. This rules out Trailways which doesn't publish schedules. Greyhound doesn't follow any useful route where I am. Shortline still publishes a schedule.

 

[railiner]

Make since but what if someone don't have computer or iPad like older adults how they get schedule?

I think you're saying "It makes sense but what if someone doesn't have a computer or iPad (like older adults)? How are they supposed to get schedules?"

If so, as has been mentioned here, individual route schedules are still available in print form. And one can still call Amtrak by phone. Older adults manage to travel by bus and plane, and bus lines and airlines have generally stopped providing printed system timetables.

Which is part of why I haven't taken an intercity bus in years, incidentally. I don't take routes which don't have timetables. Ever. This is way more common than you might think. This rules out Trailways which doesn't publish schedules. Greyhound doesn't follow any useful route where I am. Shortline still publishes a schedule.

You can get complete Adirondack-Pine Hill or New York Trailways timetables at all major terminals. You can also get online schedule information.

 

[neroden]

No you can't. Sorry, I've actually tried. We have a Trailways station in Ithaca, you know?

Theoretically we have one, that is. Try to get a schedule out of them. None online, none on paper.

Shortline publishes a schedule, making it the only practical bus option out of Ithaca. (Well, there's now also a Cornell-sponsored bus express to NYC. And a third private point-to-point bus express to NYC.)

 

[CCC1007]

No you can't. Sorry, I've actually tried. We have a Trailways station in Ithaca, you know?

Theoretically we have one, that is. Try to get a schedule out of them. None online, none on paper.

Shortline publishes a schedule, making it the only practical bus option out of Ithaca. (Well, there's now also a Cornell-sponsored bus express to NYC. And a third private point-to-point bus express to NYC.)

He did say "major." Could it be that Ithaca just didn't make the cut?

 

[neroden]

Ithaca isn't even listed in the timetables which I've seen at other stations. Trailways buses stop there. I have no idea who gets on them or where they go.

This does prove, however, that the timetables are not complete system timetables!

 

[railiner]

I see what you mean...they don't publish the complete timetable online, but the booking site does show the scheduled trips and fares available for each date....

https://trailwaysny.com/purchase-tickets/?webstore_sid=e7f26ee5-fd16-4e8f-aed9-811ace52b1f9

One other source is Greyhound's online timetable #170, which does show the complete service... (Click on the left side for the April 20, 2016 revision)

http://extranet.greyhound.com/Revsup/schedules2/pageset.html

I am sorry that Ithaca doesn't carry a supply of the printed timetables....if you would call 800-858-8555 and request them to send you the complete printed timetables, they may do that.

If not, send me a PM, and I will personally mail them to you.....

 

[Train2104]

At the same time, there is also a not insignificant portion of the public which cannot read and understand a timetable - for them, point-to-point schedules are all that work.

And this is the truth. I see a LOT of this on the commuter railroads - the paper timetables are at each station and also tacked up on the wall, but almost nobody reads them and those that do always seem to end up waiting for the wrong train...

 

[jis]

Thinking a bit about which sort of timetables I have found most useful these points come to mind:

1. Big fat national timetable like the old Railroad Guides in the US or Bradshaw and now the National Timetable in the UK, and things like the TAAG (Trains At A Glance) in India are things that satisfy my railfan side. I think most normal people find those too intimidating specially with endless footnotes for each table and what not, quite intimidating and avoid them.

2. Individual route timetables are more usable by lay users. They are even more useful if provided with abstract connection timetables for each junction station that the route passes through. This unfortunately is seldom done in the US, though there are a few small exceptions.

3. At stations, a station specific arrival departure timetable is very useful. This is standard practice in Europe, and not providing such is standard practice in the US.

4. Providing route timetable for the train at the platform where it is departing from is often done electronically in Europe, usually not done in the US, though there are some exceptions.

5. Providing train consist information at platform is sometimes announced in the US, but is almost standard practice in Europe, and pretty standard at large stations in India and China too. Helps people position themselves on the platform closer to the car.

Given those possibilities I think Amtrak should try to concentrate more towards items 2 through 5, and provide 1 mostly electronically both in a machine usable and a printable form. This also gives an opportunity to keep the document more upto date. Essentially creating a PDF document which is a collection of individual route timetables and if possible connection timetables for major transfer points would be ideal for such a document.

Additionally of course there can be all sorts of dynamically generated documents based on specific searches etc. provided at the web site.

 

[niemi24s]

In spite of the fact that the disappearance of the Amtrak System Timeable (AST) alluded to in Post #1 has neither been confirmed nor denied, the tactic of planning for the worst and hoping for the best was employed. A visit to the local Office Max/Office Depot revealed two things:

• As both the printed paper form and the pdf version of the Winter/Spring 2016 AST are copyrighted material, the printing job will not be accepted.

• On the bold assumption the next version has a caveat permitting local commercial reproduction, the cost per copy would be about $89 each for 1 copy, $75 each for 10 copies and $50 each for 100 copies.

Efforts to confirm with Amtrak the AST's disappearance in paper form have so far been unsuccessful.- unless it's buried somewhere in these 6 pages and I've missed it.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Efforts to confirm with Amtrak the AST's disappearance in paper form have so far been unsuccessful.- unless it's buried somewhere in these 6 pages and I've missed it.

Look at posts 16 & 17. Those two posters are reliable.

 

[jis]

Sad to hear Amtrak had decided not to publish national timetables anymore. Egh, I never really used them all that much... but was able to collect the complete collection since the first one... including the rare one that only a few thousand of were printed in the mid-1980's. I had a few folks mention the complete collection I have could be worth as much as $2000-3000.

April 20, 2016
For several years we have simultaneously produced the Amtrak System Timetable in printed form and as an electronic downloadable document housed on Amtrak.com. The decision has been made to discontinue production of the printed Amtrak System Timetable effective immediately. The final printed timetable is the January 2016 Winter/Spring version recently printed.

The reasons for this decision are:

...•Usage and demand for the printed document have steadily declined over the past five years.

•Surveys have revealed that few customers want or use the printed System Timetable and expressed a preference to access information on line.

•Schedules, policies and programs are ever changing and it’s impossible to keep the printed document accurate and up-to-date.

•Reducing print is financially responsible

•Reducing print is environmentally responsible

•All Amtrak timetables, including the System Timetable are housed within and may be accessed on Amtrak.com.

•At this time many of the smaller individual route and corridor wallet cards and panels will continue to be printed.

Just out of curiosity...does anyone have an actual source for this announcement? While it certainly sounds plausible, the OP does not cite a source. Neither does the poster over on Trainorders. There's no news release about it, and neither is there anything listed on the Service Advisory page.

I assume this is from some sort of internal communique but I would be curious as to its origin. There have been rumors of this sort of thing in the past.

It is true.

As HAL said; A notice was issued yesterday to employees, which was pretty verbatim to the OP message.

Efforts to confirm with Amtrak the AST's disappearance in paper form have so far been unsuccessful.- unless it's buried somewhere in these 6 pages and I've missed it.

See the three posts quoted above yours. Of those three, one - the first ones works closely with Amtrak, the second one is retired from Amtrak and has close connection with Amtrak with access to internal documents, and the third I believe works for Amtrak. How much more verification do you need? Sad if it is the case that you missed the OP of the thread Maybe he should have made it clear what document he was quoting.

 

[afigg]

Efforts to confirm with Amtrak the AST's disappearance in paper form have so far been unsuccessful.- unless it's buried somewhere in these 6 pages and I've missed it.

Besides the posts and quoted memos here (and other rr forums), would a news report at Trains Magazine be sufficient confirmation for you? The article is behind a paywall, but the headline and first words in the article tell the basic story: Amtrak's printed timetable days are finished. The comments to the Trains magazine report, BTW, are not behind the paywall...

 

[jis]

It might be worth asking Amtrak to explicitly grant nonexclusive license to all to print a copy for personal use, and add such a note to the copyright notice in the PDF. Since they give them away for free anyway, this would seem not to affect anything and would serve a positive purpose. Those from Amtrak around here may wish to convey this thought to the powers that be at Amtrak.

This will enable printing part or whole at public printing service outlets, and be overall of advantage to Amtrak IMHO. Now as for the cost of such printing, that is an altogether different matter, but there are printing services on the internet that are considerably cheaper than the Officemaxes of the world.

And then there is of course the printer at home where it is just the time and cost of materials.

Personally, I would not print one. It is good enough to have the PDF on my iPhone under iBooks.

 

[niemi24s]

Just got off the phone with an individual at Amtrak Advertising who confirmed the elimination of the System Timetable in paper form. He was, however, unaware of the possible problem caused by the current copyright statement in the pdf version and said he'd see what could be done to modify it to allow commercial reproduction for personal use.

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers about confirming the story, but I'm the sort who believes nothing he hears and only half of what he sees. In addition, I don't keep track of any posters veracity.

 

[fairviewroad]

Aren't Amtrak materials public documents? Not to get sidetracked into a governance question, but I was under the impression that Amtrak was subject to the federal Freedom of Information Act. As such, wouldn't it follow that what they produce is a public document? [Yeah, I know...the staffer down at OfficeKinkos is just following corporate policy and isn't going to risk his/her job over printing out a railroad timetable]

As to the cost...I assume the quoted price was for the entire document. You could certainly lessen the cost by skipping all the non-timetable pages. Of the 141 page PDF of the current timetable, only 89 pages include actual timetables. Of those, approximately 20 were pages for Thruway buses or non-Amtrak service providers. So if you just want to print the rail timetables, you're really looking at just under half the 141 page document. That should cut down the cost whether printing at home or at a commercial location.

 

[jis]

AFAIK the Copyright law says nothing about public documents. Someone can make their documents public by including an appropriate copyright license granting permission to to everyone to create copies. Absent that any expression is automatically copyrighted to the producer of said expression.

 

[fairviewroad]

AFAIK the Copyright law says nothing about public documents. Someone can make their documents public by including an appropriate copyright license granting permission to to everyone to create copies. Absent that any expression is automatically copyrighted to the producer of said expression.

There are of course exceptions and what-not but the relevant section of the Copyright law states:

Public Domain & Copyright Notice

Title 17, Section 105, United States Code, provides that:

Copyright protection under this title is not available for any work of the United States Government, but the United States Government is not precluded from receiving and holding copyrights transferred to it by assignment, bequest, or otherwise.
The intent of the section is to place in the public domain all work of the United States Government, which is defined in 17 U.S.C. § 101 as work prepared by an officer or employee of the United States Government as part of the person's official duties.
By virtue of the foregoing, public documents can generally be reprinted without legal restriction.

Bolding mine. Source.

Of course, this goes back to the squishy question of whether Amtrak is a government agency, and whether Amtrak employees are performing official duties of the United States Government. Again, not a debate you're likely to win with the employee down at the local print shop.

 

[jis]

Thanks for the clarification.