No more printed system timetables

[jis]

Or you could build a better online facility making full use of dynamic hypertext generated from a powerful search engine, that lets one explore way better than one can using a pile of paper. This is not disagreeing but merely augmenting what Tricia and Nathaniel said.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Or you could build a better online facility making full use of dynamic hypertext generated from a powerful search engine, that lets one explore way better than one can using a pile of paper. This is not disagreeing but merely augmenting what Tricia and Nathaniel said.

**LIKE***

 

[chakk]

Even by the mid-1950's there was significant numbers of train-off petitions to the Interstate Commerce Commission, as well as consolidation of trains on continuing routes.

I remember the loss of passenger service on some small upper Michigan railroads, and the discontinuation of all B&O service north of Baltimore.

The decline accelerated rapidly in the 1960's, and I do think all long distance trains would have disappeared if not for the formation of Amtrak.

 

[trainman74]

Let me ask a question which only means something to those who weren't alive in the pre-Amtrak days. In 1956 could anyone have foreseen that there would be a time when there was no passenger rail system timetable in circulation at all?

I'm sure someone could, but it would have been an extremely prescient science-fiction writer who would have come up with the situation being discussed in this thread -- that the railroad would discontinue printing and distributing a physical system timetable because most people would have the ability to nearly instantly call up and read the schedules on a screen in their home or office, or on the screen of a mobile computer that they would normally keep in a pocket or purse.

 

[west point]

As long as the Amtrak computer system cannot automatically develop a schedule from any point to any point timetables are going to be needed. From other posts it seems that if someone desires to go from point A to point B wan is not in the system an agent is the only way to get a ticket and might have problems. With over 500 locations to travel to the computer system needs to be able to construct over 500 factorial city pairs. Each location added adds total number of destinations minus one to load into computer. Airlines have it much easier in that most flights from a city only go to finite locations and look for flights from those connections to final destination.

Of course the Amtrak computer can do that but not as well especially when 3 or more trips are involved.

Expect thruway bus connections multiply routing problems.

 

[JoeBas]

This is clearly an attempt by the Bilderbergs and the NWO to deliver a coup de gras to our National Train system by making it impossible for elderly or technophobic people to figure out how to use it!!! We must resist!!!!!

FREEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

 

[neroden]

As long as the Amtrak computer system cannot automatically develop a schedule from any point to any point timetables are going to be needed.

Not just one schedule, *all possible* schedules with *all possible* layovers from *all points* to *all points*, presented conveniently... not gonna happen....

When I use paper timetables, I spread data out over an area 5 to 10 times the size of my computer screen. Yeah, I can print it out looseleaf, and that is probably more useful than the existing small timetable booklet. Though it's best to have a big map too. I think some people don't understand the use case here: nothing "online" is any good for the sort of thing Tricia and I do. Fancy hypertext garbage is really worthless compared to a large pile of paper for this sort of thing, because none of us own big enough screens. Get me one of Bill Gates's 10-foot by 20-foot screens and you can start talking about doing this digitally.

Anyway, this use case already calls for a substantially different timetable layout. Actually it calls for a huge unfolding map with the key connection-point timetables printed directly on the map. This might be a much better marketing device than the existing timetable.

 

[fairviewroad]

It could be something along the lines of the Amtrak Vacation brochure that already exists.

Exactly. People who want a "rail vacation" don't care whether the California Zephyr leaves Denver at 8 a.m. or at 11 a.m.. They don't care what time it stops at Green River or Winnemucca. They are purchasing an experience. Amtrak continues to market that experience through print and online means.

I mean, yeah of course those travelers will need to know when to show up at the train station. But that's really an ancillary detail. That Amtrak Vacations brochure is still available in print and would make the perfect gift for the elderly Amish technophobe in your life.

 

[jis]

As long as the Amtrak computer system cannot automatically develop a schedule from any point to any point timetables are going to be needed.

Not just one schedule, *all possible* schedules with *all possible* layovers from *all points* to *all points*, presented conveniently... not gonna happen....

When I use paper timetables, I spread data out over an area 5 to 10 times the size of my computer screen. Yeah, I can print it out looseleaf, and that is probably more useful than the existing small timetable booklet. Though it's best to have a big map too. I think some people don't understand the use case here: nothing "online" is any good for the sort of thing Tricia and I do. Fancy hypertext garbage is really worthless compared to a large pile of paper for this sort of thing, because none of us own big enough screens. Get me one of Bill Gates's 10-foot by 20-foot screens and you can start talking about doing this digitally.

Anyway, this use case already calls for a substantially different timetable layout. Actually it calls for a huge unfolding map with the key connection-point timetables printed directly on the map. This might be a much better marketing device than the existing timetable.

Nathaniel, my idea was to create a huge active map, where you can click on any connecting point to pop up the arrival/departure schedule duly filtered if necessary for only those routes that are of interest and such. I think people are missing the point when they bring up the NP completeness issues with an unconstrained search. The search seldom is unconstrained when someone is looking for something specific. One could simply declare the impossibility of a search and give up. Fortunately Google did not and of course the rest is history.

The whole trick is in creating friendly human interfaces together with addressing the Use Cases (which you rightly point out are central to the issue) to drive adequate amount of constraining of the problem to provide meaningful, usable results addressing the use cases.

 

[JoeBas]

It seems like it would be child's play for someone with a bare minimum of skills to put together some quick java/flash thing that lest you click on departure stations, select when you want to leave, then click on destination stations, and add intermediate stations and lengths of stoppage, then click "DO IT" and come up with a series of routing options. There's not even pricing buckets involved in that!

I run ticket to ride on my dang cellphone and it can tell whether stuff is hooked up or not. How hard can this be? Do we really need to continue to chisel stuff on stone tablets?

 

[Thirdrail7]

They don't care what time it stops at Green River or Winnemucca. They are purchasing an experience.

Ummm...everyone should care about Winnemucca. Things would be better if people cared about Winnemucca...since it is so fun to say.

Winnemucca. Winnemucca.

It's like saying

(the link is clean h34r: ).

 

[neroden]

I think people are missing the point when they bring up the NP completeness issues with an unconstrained search. The search seldom is unconstrained when someone is looking for something specific

Tricia and I are specifically doing nearly-unconstrained searches. I think I mentioned that? I know Tricia did.
It's all very well to have this other stuff but we have a use case which ought to be met.

 

[jis]

But I don't see any reason for Amtrak to spend money supporting your unconstrained search beyond just giving you access to the timetable in a machine usable form. Do you? Why should Amtrak spend any money in supporting your hobby, which is more or less useless for most typical Amtrak users?

 

[niemi24s]

People who want a "rail vacation" don't care whether the California Zephyr leaves Denver at 8 a.m. or at 11 a.m..

I'm constantly amazed by the wisdom of those who know exactly what everybody else cares about. Simply astounding!

 

[fairviewroad]

People who want a "rail vacation" don't care whether the California Zephyr leaves Denver at 8 a.m. or at 11 a.m..

I'm constantly amazed by the wisdom of those who know exactly what everybody else cares about. Simply astounding!

Welcome to the internet, dude.

 

[MARC Rider]

On my last trip, before I boarded the Palmetto at Savannah, I picked up a printed copy of the Atlantic Coast Service timetable. It was handy reference during g the trip, allowing me to tell whether or not we were on schedule, and certainly more convenient than fighting the spotty Wifi to. Rid g up a barely readable PDF on my phone.

 

[PRR 60]

On my last trip, before I boarded the Palmetto at Savannah, I picked up a printed copy of the Atlantic Coast Service timetable. It was handy reference during g the trip, allowing me to tell whether or not we were on schedule, and certainly more convenient than fighting the spotty Wifi to. Rid g up a barely readable PDF on my phone.

The printed timetables for individual trains will still be available. Plus, if a PDF is "barely readable" on your phone, get a new phone.

 

[jis]

Also, if you know what route you are going on why would you not pre-load the PDF on your hand held device, thus freeing you of the need for working WiFi to get hold of the necessary timetable? Indeed I always have a PDF of the entire National Timetable available on my handheld device.

 

[neroden]

But I don't see any reason for Amtrak to spend money supporting your unconstrained search beyond just giving you access to the timetable in a machine usable form. Do you? Why should Amtrak spend any money in supporting your hobby, which is more or less useless for most typical Amtrak users?

So that I buy tickets? DUH?

You do realize that the purpose of an unconstrained search is to see what trips I might take. If I can't do the search, I *don't take any trip*.

I can't count the number of bus lines, airlines, and so on which have *lost my business* because they made it impossible to do an unconstrained search of their system. There's a reason I've never travelled on VIA Rail...

At least Amtrak will still have the complete system timetables conveniently downloadable from their website, so this isn't really that bad.

Try getting a system timetable out of VIA. I don't think they have one. It was very hard even to find a timetable for a single route.

This is a matter of attracting customers. A certain percentage of customers prefer to do their own trip planning. If you make it impossible for us to do this conveniently, *we will drive*.

----

This is similar to the issue of places which only offer "turn by turn directions" in their brochures. Many people like them, which is why it's useful to offer them. Other people (like me) detest them utterly and want a map. If you don't provide the map, *you lose a third of your potential customers*.

Even though Amazon.com has gone to great efforts to make it possible to search for an item and find it immediately, they *also* realized that some people want to run through every single possible item in a category to compare and contrast -- so they have a mode which *lets you do that*. This is necessary to appeal to a certain, rather large, percentage of customers.

----

The reason I rant about this is that there are a lot of very stupid businesses which really think they can get away with "just plug in your destination into our system and we'll tell you how to get there". No, that's no good. If you do that, I do not want to do business with you, and in that regard, I represent a minority of people -- but a *large* minority of people *with money to spend*. Some of us want to be able to see the whole picture. I want Amtrak to continue making the effort to attract customers in my category.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I've booked hundreds of trips on VIA trains, both LD and Corridor, and I'm not exactly Bill Gates when it comes to High Tech.

I will admit that via.ca isn't the best site around but Amtrak.com isn't exactly the easiest to use although it is slowly getting better!

Not riding VIA is your Loss, try it, you'll like it!

 

[jis]

But I don't see any reason for Amtrak to spend money supporting your unconstrained search beyond just giving you access to the timetable in a machine usable form. Do you? Why should Amtrak spend any money in supporting your hobby, which is more or less useless for most typical Amtrak users?

----

The reason I rant about this is that there are a lot of very stupid businesses which really think they can get away with "just plug in your destination into our system and we'll tell you how to get there". No, that's no good. If you do that, I do not want to do business with you, and in that regard, I represent a minority of people -- but a *large* minority of people *with money to spend*. Some of us want to be able to see the whole picture. I want Amtrak to continue making the effort to attract customers in my category.

So by your own admission Amtrak has not taken anything away that you need. Admittedly they could provide you with the same information in a slightly more useful form. But apparently they already serve your hobby adequately and you are happy with what you already have. So I don't understand what you are ranting and moaning about.

Of course this should not preclude Amtrak from supporting more common use cases of less sophisticated users of their time table and reservation system, I was talking about those use case, not yours. Yours is already adequately addressed.

 

[afigg]

At least Amtrak will still have the complete system timetables conveniently downloadable from their website, so this isn't really that bad.

Try getting a system timetable out of VIA. I don't think they have one. It was very hard even to find a timetable for a single route.

The VIA website could certainly be improved, but it still only took me a few minutes to find this 30 page October 2015 Bilingual System timetable (PDF) on their website. Don't know why they put the timetable on a brochures page (which I don't see how to click to from the pull-down menus) and not on the schedule page, but they do appear to have a system timetable buried on their website. A search for "timetables" in the VIA website search box found the brochure link.

While we may knock Amtrak's IT efforts as the underlying reservation system needs to be modernized, I will say that Amtrak's website is much better than VIA's.

 

[neroden]

Yours is already adequately addressed.

Yeah, honestly, it is.

I'm just worried about "slippery slope". I don't want Amtrak to sink to VIA's level.

I mean, look at the constant degradation of food service. One thoughtless cut seems to lead to another thoughtless cut...

 

[neroden]

At least Amtrak will still have the complete system timetables conveniently downloadable from their website, so this isn't really that bad.

Try getting a system timetable out of VIA. I don't think they have one. It was very hard even to find a timetable for a single route.

The VIA website could certainly be improved, but it still only took me a few minutes to find this 30 page October 2015 Bilingual System timetable (PDF) on their website. Don't know why they put the timetable on a brochures page (which I don't see how to click to from the pull-down menus) and not on the schedule page, but they do appear to have a system timetable buried on their website. A search for "timetables" in the VIA website search box found the brochure link.
While we may knock Amtrak's IT efforts as the underlying reservation system needs to be modernized, I will say that Amtrak's website is much better than VIA's.

Thank you. I had not managed to find VIA's extremely well-hidden system timetable in over three years of searching.

 

[PRR 60]

At least Amtrak will still have the complete system timetables conveniently downloadable from their website, so this isn't really that bad.

Try getting a system timetable out of VIA. I don't think they have one. It was very hard even to find a timetable for a single route.

The VIA website could certainly be improved, but it still only took me a few minutes to find this 30 page October 2015 Bilingual System timetable (PDF) on their website. Don't know why they put the timetable on a brochures page (which I don't see how to click to from the pull-down menus) and not on the schedule page, but they do appear to have a system timetable buried on their website. A search for "timetables" in the VIA website search box found the brochure link.

While we may knock Amtrak's IT efforts as the underlying reservation system needs to be modernized, I will say that Amtrak's website is much better than VIA's.

Nice find!