Privatization of Dining Car Service may be the answer

[FormerOBS]

Are you interpreting my comments as meaning that dining car employees are the only ones who receive this training? It is given to all OBS employees, whether they work in lounges, diners, coaches, or sleepers. The number of employees per passenger will be greater on trains with large crews, all other things being equal.

T

 

[Triley]

Regarding our safety and security skills, if you would like to call it that? For LSA - Cafe/Club Car training, my class spent three and a half weeks in classroom training. Only half a day of that was spent on food prep. Three days were spent on POS/register/credit machine training. Maybe two days on accounting. One day on grooming. Pretty much the entire rest of the training was regarding safety and security (that's roughly seven or eight days).

I am CPR/AED certified, and even though it's good for two years, we are recertified yearly. I am trained in how to properly extinguish a fire, in addition to shutting off the blowers on various types of equipment, to keep smoke from circulating in the car. Know how to safely evacuate an Amfleet car? Yup. Acela? Yup. Gotta be trained to recognize safety hazards in evacuating trains. One end of the train could have a real bad fire, and to someone untrained in railroad safety, someone's first reaction may be to jump out one of the emergency exits. Good idea? Noooooooo. What if another train is coming? Have to evacuate to another car, while contacting CNOC to make sure all rail traffic and (possible) third rails are deactivated, prior to evacuation. Know how to build the emergency stairs, to evacuate an Acela? Yup. Yes it's true if we're using the stairs, the situation mustn't be that dire. Even so, you try telling that to a train of 300 passengers that only the conductor and assistant conductor know how to build out the two sets of stairs. Especially when one set is in the Club Car, and you've got two people that could be help expedite the evacuation.

Not to bring up the tragedy of 188, but the LSA (although injured) willingly volunteered to stay and help evacuate passengers. I can't imagine someone from an outside company being paid $8.50/hr willing to put their life on the line as willingly.

This barely scratches the surface of onboard staff training (including LSAs, Sleeper/Coach/Train attendants, Conductors, Engineers, even down to EnRoute cleaners on the NEC). Tunnel evacuations. Spotting potential security issues (unattended bags in odd places, or what to look for in potential terror threats). For obvious reasons i can't go much deeper than I already have, maybe Tom will go further in to detail if poked, as he's retired. But please don't question for a second if we are more than mere food servers.

 

[Lonestar648]

I don't see how you could have a contractor run the DC or Café with passengers in the car with out their employees having been trained in emergency escape and evacuation procedures, plus basic first aid, CPR, and other basic training, for the safety of all passengers. Imagine an accident and the contractor employees don't know how to get those in their car out and because they have had no training they panic when looked to for leadership.

 

[dlagrua]

We can debate all we want. In the end Boardman and the Amtrak BOD will determine how the food service will be phased out and eventually abolished. I envision massive layoffs of the dining car employees this year and the elimination of the dining cars completely within two years. This is the only way to meet the 2 yr . goal (lie) set by Boardman. Only a public outcry may change things. It may come to a point where you order your food online, pay for it and it is picked up at the next station in a box.

Just two years ago Amtrak was proud of its food service. They hired master chefs to develop some gourmet dishes, they even had a chefs cooking demonstration at 30th street station on National Train Day. I guess the way Amtrak marketed the service in the past as an elegant way to travel is now irrelevant. Without food service I wonder how Amtrak will market passenger rail service.

 

[Triley]

We can debate all we want. In the end Boardman and the Amtrak BOD will determine how the food service will be phased out and eventually abolished. I envision massive layoffs of the dining car employees this year and the elimination of the dining cars completely within two years. This is the only way to meet the 2 yr . goal (lie) set by Boardman. Only a public outcry may change things. It may come to a point where you order your food online, pay for it and it is picked up at the next station in a box.

Just two years ago Amtrak was proud of its food service. They hired master chefs to develop some gourmet dishes, they even had a chefs cooking demonstration at 30th street station on National Train Day. I guess the way Amtrak marketed the service in the past as an elegant way to travel is now irrelevant. Without food service I wonder how Amtrak will market passenger rail service.

Let me pose a question. You envision <snip> elimination of the dining cars completely within two years? Then why would we have spent millions of dollars ordering new dining cars instead of additional sleepers or new coaches? It would make no sense.

 

[Lonestar648]

If Boardman is retiring soon, what incentive does he have to keep any food service. If he plans to make it profitable by his retirement by ending it, then I expect the BOD has already approved a gradual phase out plan already. It has to be in place now to achieve the 18 month - 24 month goal.

 

[jebr]

Wait, where did this two years come from? Last I heard was five years, which seemed just long enough to kick the can down the road to the next guy.

 

[Manny T]

The pledge to end Amtrak F&B losses in five years was made in 2013 and announced in a press release in October, 2013:

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/196/210/Amtrak-Commits-End-Food-Beverage-Losses-ATK-13-115.pdf

From the press release:

"If Amtrak were to eliminate food and beverage services as some observers recommend, the railroad would actually lose more money because of the loss in associated ridership and ticket revenue, and thereby increase its dependence on federal support, he stated."

 

[neroden]

It may come to a point where you order your food online, pay for it and it is picked up at the next station in a box.

Doesn't work when the train is even 30 minutes late.

 

[Ryan]

So three+ years. Also, where is the "retiring soon" bit coming from? And if true, why would he care that the company doesn't meet a target that he set after he leaves?

Some people need to lay off of the tinfoil hat.

 

[Alex M.]

What percentage of passengers, on average, actually dine in the dining car? If most coach passengers do not eat in the diner, why not offer discounted meals to them? It has been a long time since I rode Amtrak, but the one time I did from Orlando to Charleston, SC I had a meal in the diner that was mostly empty. Now this could have been the time that I ate, but I wonder if more patrons could be enticed in using this service, which was quite good, as I recall. This was in late 1972. Maybe the service needs to be marketed more effectively.

 

[Larry H.]

I haven't read all the post but I was prompted to respond by the poster near the front who thinks the cost of a sleeper or the food isn't high enough yet? How high exactly is it supposed to go? I don't know how many people afford the long distance fares any longer. The real issue to me is the fact that we spend billions at the drop of a hat on things like immigration or free this and that yet for a basic service we said we would support the money just isn't there. I also have been a mused to see articles about how the long distance trains run empty and should be eliminated. The past couple of weeks a there were articles about two amtrak trains stalled for various reasons outside of chicago. One had 360 passengers on board and the other stuck in Iowa I think had 240 or so. Hardly what I call running empty. We long ago fell way below what many people would expect for what they have to pay for sleepers with food quality constantly under attack as well. I agree with those who say that the dinner is a necessary part of long distance service and should be considered as part of the operational cost, not as a stand alone expense which can simply be eliminated.

Why didn't I think of this sooner! They could just not buy diesel fuel and really save some money.

 

[jis]

I have been following this Dining Car saga for a while, and at least from my vantage point having talked personally to a Senior Amtrak VP (at the last NARP shindig in Silver Springs), I am convinced that Amtrak management by itself really does not want to get rid of Dining Cars across the board. but they are stuck with doing something to establish that it would be a very bad idea to do so and that it does not save cost, and try to do so without gutting food service across the Board. Being stuck in that position they have devised a way of handling it, such as it is without gutting all food service.

I would not put too much credence on the positive P&L for F&B by 2018. Amtrak has in the past promised positive P&L for the entire outfit in the Warrington days and failed on it, and survived that. they will survive this too I am sure. But they have to go through the motions that they are just like Warrington had to go through his glide to profitability, which BTW was somewhat foisted on him by his predecessor, and Gunn had to then rescue the company from the disastrous effects of it on everything, but particularly on NEC.

But hey, we discuss various speculations based on each of our own knowledge and prejudices, so I respect the opinions presented about Dining service ceasing to exist in a couple or three years. But for reasons mentioned above, from my perspective I do not believe that to be the case. Of course only time will tell.

As for thinking that the problem is on the price side as in its being too low, whoever is claiming that has not exhibited any cogent foundation based on which that statement is made. We do know that Amtrak is pretty good at managing the revenue side to maximize revenue. Just raising the prices is not necessary going to increase overall revenue, since one has to take into consideration the price and demand elasticities involved.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Jis: This!

 

[user 1215]

In my own observations - and this isn't scientific by any means - It's the way that Amtrak currently conducts business that is what is hurting them. How many times have cash customers been turned away because the diner was full? Does the diner receive the revenue from sleeper pax that don't dine? Can the hours be increased? I'm going to bring up what everyone hates to hear, but Bruce Richardson's test of the 24-hour diner on the Sunset a decade ago seemed to work - but unions didn't like it. Breakfast and lunch (breakfast in particular) seems to be the least utilized. Lower the prices just a bit to increase demand?

Running out of food is never acceptable in the DIner or in the Cafe. I really believe that if those issues are resolved, then drastic pen swiping may not be necessary.

 

[jis]

I think there is a kernel of truth in what Venture says above.

Others will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe at present only the price of the actually consumed stuff that the Sleeper passengers consume is transferred from the transport account to the F&B account for Sleeper passengers.

I cannot see why the Unions would oppose any number of hours of service as long as staff to run two or three shifts is accounted for. OTOH if one expects the same staff that runs the Diner for the hours of three meals is expected to run it for 24 hours, then the Unions would have a legitimate gripe and they would and should complain.

Try doing a 15 hour flight with the same cabin crew that you would put on a 5 hour flight and see both the Unions and FAA come down on you like a ton of bricks. It would simply be illegal, since on airlines even the cabin crew have hours of continuous service restrictions.

 

[Anderson]

In my own observations - and this isn't scientific by any means - It's the way that Amtrak currently conducts business that is what is hurting them. How many times have cash customers been turned away because the diner was full? Does the diner receive the revenue from sleeper pax that don't dine? Can the hours be increased? I'm going to bring up what everyone hates to hear, but Bruce Richardson's test of the 24-hour diner on the Sunset a decade ago seemed to work - but unions didn't like it. Breakfast and lunch (breakfast in particular) seems to be the least utilized. Lower the prices just a bit to increase demand?

Running out of food is never acceptable in the DIner or in the Cafe. I really believe that if those issues are resolved, then drastic pen swiping may not be necessary.

Breakfast and lunch have less crowding for two reasons:

(1) Not a lot of people really need to eat both in the diner. A late breakfast in the diner (or an early lunch) and a snack in the cafe for the other meal suffices just fine for a lot of people.

(2) Dinner takes longer to prepare, serve, and eat.

As to your questions:

(1) I've managed to beg my way into the Meteor's diner numerous times, but (for example) on Sunday I'm going to DC and there's no private room space WAS-RVR right now...so I'm going to take the trip but I'm worried that there won't be space in the diner for me. I may be able to beg my way in on account of my regular riding (being on a train about once a week has its advantages), but...good grief, it's annoying not to be able to know I'll be able to get dinner on the train.

(1a) In conjunction with this, I'd happily pay $10-20 to know I'll get dinner in the dining car while in coach.

(2) The diner technically only gets credited for sleeper meals consumed, in a revenue transfer from the sleeper. This was mentioned at last fall's NARP meeting (leading to a bunch of laughter as we were exhorted to order the steak as much as possible).

(3) Hours can be fiddled with as needed. When there was a mess on the Cap a few years back, the diner crew kept going until the sleeper pax were all fed. I think that by then it was getting obscenely close to midnight (there was a last-minute change-out of the dining car due to a bad order, and from there everything just ran slow). The unions and crew issues are at hand here, though it might be possible to adopt one set of hours for the one-night trains and another for the two-night trains.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I currently work 26-27 day a month and get home 4 days a month.

I am cross trained on a job that works 4 months on duty, follow by 2 months off. Or if your lucky you can work 6 months on, follow by 6 months off. Yes you can find work that ever other month.

Safety trained you bet. 1st Aid and CPR with Defib is a whole 8 hour class. My whole training can be done in 4 weeks and is now required ever 5 years.

Amtrak long distance trains are under attack, and have been for a long time. The clues are there to be seen. Just review the personal changes.

 

[neroden]

In my own observations - and this isn't scientific by any means - It's the way that Amtrak currently conducts business that is what is hurting them. How many times have cash customers been turned away because the diner was full? Does the diner receive the revenue from sleeper pax that don't dine? Can the hours be increased? I'm going to bring up what everyone hates to hear, but Bruce Richardson's test of the 24-hour diner on the Sunset a decade ago seemed to work - but unions didn't like it. Breakfast and lunch (breakfast in particular) seems to be the least utilized. Lower the prices just a bit to increase demand?

Running out of food is never acceptable in the DIner or in the Cafe. I really believe that if those issues are resolved, then drastic pen swiping may not be necessary.

I'm pretty much in agreement with this. More availability, more volume, always have enough food...

(2) Dinner takes longer to prepare, serve, and eat.

So fix that. There's no logical reason for it. Lunch & dinner are about the same speed at nearly every restaurant on land. THAT can be changed.

good grief, it's annoying not to be able to know I'll be able to get dinner on the train.

Isn't it? This is why dining cars are necessary.
I'm still furious that I have to take my own food on long-distance trips, and the only solace is that Amtrak's dining cars get no money from me, so they're being punished for their refusal to provide decent service.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

It may come to a point where you order your food online, pay for it and it is picked up at the next station in a box.

Doesn't work when the train is even 30 minutes late.

True. Isn't that the reality that eventually killed the morning paper? There was no way to ensure at what station the train will be at, say, 5am every morning, every trip.

 

[Lonestar648]

I agree, the way to reduce the costs of the DC is to increase the volume of meals served. With Breakfast the revenue to lowest, but the potential profit per meal is the highest. Dinner has the highest revenue but the lowest margin due to the cost of the food served. All restaurants know this, this why they have wine and beer which have huge profit margins per glass/bottle, thus subsidizing the dinner meal costs. On the 21 out of Chicago, they offered a single seating Early Bird" Special. I think the server said they almost sold out, most were from Coach. Amtrak, why not creative to get Coach passengers into the DC. How much Breakfast could be sold if they still had the seating capacity of the old Superliner DC. Yes, the cook needs a break if you are serving 6:30 until Lunch, but the DC lead could downstairs instead of still in a booth the entire trip. I think Amtrak could manage the use of their DC teams better with out burning them out. For example, seat breakfast 0630-0900 then seat again 0930-11:30. For example if the average breakfast generated $8.00 per person in revenue serving approximately 40 SC passengers plus approximately 40 Coach with approximately 80 in coach not using the DC, how many additional could be enticed to use the DC? Just the addition of 20 more could result in about $160 with no additional labor costs, minimal food costs, and the plastic costs. Volume to me is the key to bringing the food costs back in line, but if Amtrak continues to reduce DC staff, food served, and DC hours, the costs will continue to spiral out of control. A contractor is looking for volume, low costs, using minimally trained employees, plans for 125% turnover per year, so few would be willing to take on such a challenge when they have their own problems staying in business in fixed locations.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

So Scotland recently change PTOC for there Caledonian sleeper car service.

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/system/files/documents/tsc-basic-pages/Rail/Caledonian%20Sleeper/Caledonian%20Sleeper%20Briefing%20v5.pdf

There is a huge PDF with timetable and exacting changes required for the new operator. The above PDF is not it. Limited Data left this month so I am not looking for it, today.

However the point is the dining car has or will have a major upgraded of type of food and service.

While I think Amtrak would not out source there DC, I know of several outfits that would be interested. Of course the contract would be something like Amtrak provide a crew car, DC, and lounge car, and the contract would staff and run the service with a big list of "must do's".

Type of training of staff, Type of foods (Gluten Free, Beef, Chicken, Pork, Vegan) that must be available.

It could be done, however I don't think that the plan.

If it was done the lounge would have to be part of it. Why have a alternative meal provider next to your food service car.

 

[neroden]

Let's make a distinction between "privatization", which usually means that the contractor takes on revenue risk, and "contracting out".

"Privatization" is hopeless and will only make costs higher. Every time, in every context. Every contractor will add a large pad to their bid to account for revenue risk, and will then gouge to try to make profits.

"Contracting out" may improve service, or may not; may cut costs, or may not. It's a matter of institutional organization and competence.

 

[dlagrua]

To the distinguished poster neroden above who claims that meal costs would go higher with privatization of the dining car service. This is unlikely. The costs are already far in excess of what like items cost in a restaurant. How many passengers would pay $5.00 for a can of soda, $35 for a hamburger or $85 for a flat iron shoulder steak dinner? I wouldn't and neither would most passengers. Point is that costs can only go so high until people walk away.

Currently the cost of car maintenance, salaries and benefits of the staff in the dining cars exceeds the profit that Amtrak makes on selling the food. Add in the cost of giving the staff a roomette with meals and it's an expensive proposition. I don't know whether or not privatization makes sense but higher turnover would reduce the losses. How do you get it when some of the dining car staff often discourages coach passengers from going to the dining car? There is no reason why the dining car cannot have restaurant hours as in the private sector. If it is full you go on a waiting list. Serving more meals would greatly increase revenues and maybe get congress off the back of Amtrak.

 

[haolerider]

Serving more meals means extending the hours, which means adding more staff. Standalone restaurants have shifts of employees to cover breakfast, lunch and dinner. A chef, an LSA and two waiters cannot cover 6:30 am - 10:00 pm! Add extra staff, you get more wages, more benefits and more revenue rooms for staff. It just doesn't work! I would agree that the existing staff is not motivated to serve more passengers, but that needs to be addressed by the operational management, who are mostly silent and invisible on the trains. It's not that the staff want to work extra hard to provide the level of service that the passengers expect, it's simply that there is no one there to get them to add extra revenue. How many restaurants/bars do you know that don't have a full time management person on the premises?