Proposals for Restored Gulf Coast Service

[Eric S]

There is nothing to prevent Congress from appropriating the funds now for a less-than-750-mile route and directing Amtrak to operate it. Congress can change or choose to ignore the 750 mile requirement. (Notwithstanding PRIIA section blah blah blah, Amtrak is directed to operate blah blah blah.)

The rule only matters to the extent that Amtrak has extra/unallocated/unassigned funds and is looking to start a new route. And last I checked, Amtrak is hardly swimming in extra cash. Yes, it reduces Amtrak's flexibility to experiment with shorter routes (although this is due as much to the issue with needing to serve existing endpoints as much as 750 miles), but your (or my) Representative or Senators could still choose to amend or rewrite an Amtrak appropriation bill to fund some new route. Or your (or my) state elected officials could choose to fund a new route too.

EDIT: Perhaps it's rather *unlikely* that Congress would choose to fund a train through what would be essentially an earmark, given that those have fallen out of favor. And maybe I'm rambling on and just repeating myself - I just keep coming back to the idea that whether or not there is a 750-mile requirement or not, the funds for this Gulf Coast train, or any other train, still need to be found. Anyway, back to regularly scheduled programming...

 

[ScouseAndy]

When the service was suspended between New Orleans and Florida did Amtrak state funding go down? If not surely it could be argued that Amtrak are already getting funding to run this route?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

When the service was suspended between New Orleans and Florida did Amtrak state funding go down? If not surely it could be argued that Amtrak are already getting funding to run this route?

As a general rule, the Long Distance trains do not receive ANY state funding.

The LD trains usually run overnight (the Palmetto is not), and so have sleepers and diners. The corridor trains are state-supported routes, where Amtrak pays 15% and the state sponsors put up 85%. They run shorter distances with no overnight service and so no sleepers and diners. The two types of trains have very different cost structures.

The Sunset Ltd. never had any state support. When it was suspended, it affected Amtrak's budget, but had no effect on any state's spending.

The proposed "Gulf Coaster" would be a new and unique arrangement. We don't know how much, or if, CSX will demand for returning a passenger train to their line. If CSX demands upgrades as compensation, apparently the states could be asked to help out. But nothing is for sure at this point.

We do have estimates for the operating loss; but it is calculated differently from any other LD train, putting aside costs that other trains carry. As a result, the forecast operating loss is as low as $5 million. Whether that puny amount will be covered by Congress is one possibility. Or the states and cities could be asked to contribute. We just don't know at this point.

Clearly Amtrak wants to do the thing. And clearly, some powerful members of Congress want to have this train. It is an awkwardness that the general position of the majority in Congress has been anti-Amtrak, trying to make it go away. Now here come some senior members asking for Amtrak to expand in their states.

Fun to see how it will turn out.

 

[west point]

One has to wonder if the support for the NOL - ORL train is passed then maybe other congress critters might put in funds for other routes ?

 

[Deni]

I like the idea of an extended CONO, if only because it restores a Chicago to FL service that has been missing for decades, but I would prefer to see a restoration of a service more like the Floridian that hits Louisville and Nashville on the way to Orlando and Miami.

 

[nshvlcat]

..... but I would prefer to see a restoration of a service more like the Floridian that hits Louisville and Nashville on the way to Orlando and Miami.

I am in agreement with you. The TN Gen. Assembly, TDOT, and Mayor Berry of Nashville need to get behind this. I am also an advocate of expanded Amtrak day service to Memphis via the Illini or the Saluki out of Carbondale. There is also some movement in Bristol TN/VA to get train service to DC. The TN Assoc. of RR Passengers is a tireless advocate for restoring/expanding passenger rail in TN.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I like the idea of an extended CONO, if only because it restores a Chicago to FL service that has been missing for decades, but I would prefer to see a restoration of a service more like the Floridian that hits Louisville and Nashville on the way to Orlando and Miami.

Don't get hung up on the far points of LD service. Usually the end-to-end riders, in this case say Chicagoland to Miami/Ft Lauderdale/West Palm Beach, will be only about 15% of the total. The maximum is about 30% on the Capitol Ltd and that's a short route.

Usually the trains pile on riders going to or coming from the intermediate points.

On the City of New Orleans, for example, the CHI-New Orleans city pair is the 4th busiest, and at more than 900 miles, we can see that's only 8.3% of the total riders. That CHI-NOLA share is far behind the city pair figures for Memphis-NOLA, CHI-Champaign, and Jackson-NOLA.

One strong feature of the proposed CONO/Gulf Coaster service is the dense string of intermediate points -- Biloxi and the casino coast (390,000 metro)-Mobile (415,000)-Pensacola (478,000)-Tallahassee (378,000)-Jacksonville (1,450,000). It won't depend on mainly riders NOLA (1,263,000)-Orlando (2,387,000), tho those are good anchor cities..

Lots of good info at the NARP site:

http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/trains_2015.pdf

 

[WoodyinNYC]

..... but I would prefer to see a restoration of a service more like the Floridian that hits Louisville and Nashville on the way to Orlando and Miami.

I am also an advocate of expanded Amtrak day service to Memphis via the Illini or the Saluki out of Carbondale. ... The TN Assoc. of RR Passengers is a tireless advocate for restoring/expanding passenger rail in TN.

The day train to Memphis should come first, of course.

No extra equipment required. Just extend the Saluki. It now departs CHI at 7:15 a.m., reaches Champaign at 10:25 a.m., and stops at Carbondale at 1:45 p.m. Instead keep it going for 220 miles, another 5 hours or so at the same speed as the CONO, and it would stop in Memphis in the evening, 7ish. Morning return, the same equipment could head northbound at 11:15 a.m., picking up the existing schedule of the Illini at Carbondale at 4:15 p.m., arriving CHI 9:45 p.m. as now. Riders would have a choice of the overnight CONO or the new day train to/from Memphis, and riders love choices.

This extension of the existing state-supported train would double the service to Memphis (1,344,000 metro). And it would require very little additional subsidy, because Illinois already pays for most of the mileage, and the ridership gains from Memphis would greatly help the revenue side.

Of course you'll know that Amtrak floated this idea, even sent representatives to Memphis to talk it up, but got no money from Tennessee. So it's no go.

Adding, or restoring, the train along the Gulf Coast, and adding service Atlanta-Dallas-Ft Worth, would change the Southern conversation from "When will Amtrak die?" to "Can we get one of them new trains?" Virginia will help by talking up its plans to serve Bristol -- and then Knoxville and Chattanooga. That would build political support for trains at the two ends of Tennessee. Then a successful second train to Memphis will have a big impact. It will take a while, no doubt, but keep up your good work.

 

[Hytec]

One strong feature of the proposed CONO/Gulf Coaster service is the dense string of intermediate points -- Biloxi and the casino coast (390,000 metro)-Mobile (415,000)-Pensacola (478,000)-Tallahassee (378,000)-Jacksonville (1,450,000). It won't depend on mainly riders NOLA (1,263,000)-Orlando (2,387,000), tho those are good anchor cities..

Lots of good info at the NARP site:

http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/trains_2015.pdf

I agree, intermediate stop ridership can be significant. When I rode the Crescent on business between NOL and WAS in the 90s, I was surprised by the number of passengers on the intermediate stop platforms, especially between ATL and NOL. The number of weekly tour buses serving the Coast casinos is significant. I have no figures, but see them almost every day on I-10 and US-49. So there is a market for a daily MEM-NOL-ORD train.

 

[zepherdude]

I found this article, sounds pretty positive.........what do you think?

http://weartv.com/news/local/amtrak-passenger-service-on-track-for-rail-service-across-gulf-coast

Note, it says Daily Service!

 

[Hytec]

I found this article, sounds pretty positive.........what do you think?

http://weartv.com/news/local/amtrak-passenger-service-on-track-for-rail-service-across-gulf-coast

Note, it says Daily Service!

Positive article, though superficial. I'm concerned that the Commission members are meeting once a month, giving only four meetings before the report is due to Congress in September. This gives very little time for the extensive analysis to determine route, schedule, equipment, facility repairs, operating costs, and funding sources. I sincerely hope the commission has the staff, resources, and information sources in place to accomplish this. Even more concerning is that the article implies that no decision has been made whether to run one train (NOL/ORL), or two trains (NOL/ORL & NOL/Mobile). This decision must be made before any further analysis can even begin.

 

[jis]

I found this article, sounds pretty positive.........what do you think?

http://weartv.com/news/local/amtrak-passenger-service-on-track-for-rail-service-across-gulf-coast

Note, it says Daily Service!

Positive article, though superficial. I'm concerned that the Commission members are meeting once a month, giving only four meetings before the report is due to Congress in September. This gives very little time for the extensive analysis to determine route, schedule, equipment, facility repairs, operating costs, and funding sources. I sincerely hope the commission has the staff, resources, and information sources in place to accomplish this. Even more concerning is that the article implies that no decision has been made whether to run one train (NOL/ORL), or two trains (NOL/ORL & NOL/Mobile). This decision must be made before any further analysis can even begin.

I suspect you have not yet come across the detailed analysis document somehow:

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf

The choice is basically among (1) running a CONO extension to Mobile (2) Running a self standing NOL - ORL train with connections at NOL and JAX to other trains, (3) Running a NOL - Mobile train plus a thruway bus Mobile to JAX. The routes, schedules, costs and benefits are spelled out in the report referred to above. it is the equivalent of an EIS for this service restoration. The choice will partly depend on how much resources can be mobilized. In the future there may be a Mobile or Atmore terminator from NOL, but it is highly unlikely that that would be the first thing to happen. That would really not be restoration of Gulf Coast Service in a complete sense.

So yeah, the analysis is more or less already done. Now it is the time to actually execute.

From the discussions that we had in Senator Nelson's (D-FL) office where the Florida, Mississippi and Alabama delegations from NARP were present it seemed like minimally the Senator will push for the NOL - ORL train and not be opposed to the CONO extension. The Thruway bus would not be acceptable. Senator Wicker (R-MS) concurred later in a conversation in which Senator Thune (R-SD) who Chairs the Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation, was also supportive of that position. I was told by Nelson's staff, who also seems to work part time for Cory Booker (D-NJ), that he is a strong supporter of the proposal. It was Booker and Wicker that led the charge on the Senate PRRIA and the more recent proposed appropriation bills.

On the House side there are several Congresspeople both R and D, from the states involved who are on board, and Rep Corrine Brown (D) from Florida is all over it.

That is why the chances look good that something positive might fall out

 

[Hytec]

I found this article, sounds pretty positive.........what do you think?

http://weartv.com/news/local/amtrak-passenger-service-on-track-for-rail-service-across-gulf-coast

Note, it says Daily Service!

Positive article, though superficial. I'm concerned that the Commission members are meeting once a month, giving only four meetings before the report is due to Congress in September. This gives very little time for the extensive analysis to determine route, schedule, equipment, facility repairs, operating costs, and funding sources. I sincerely hope the commission has the staff, resources, and information sources in place to accomplish this. Even more concerning is that the article implies that no decision has been made whether to run one train (NOL/ORL), or two trains (NOL/ORL & NOL/Mobile). This decision must be made before any further analysis can even begin.

I suspect you have not yet come across the detailed analysis document somehow:

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf

The choice is basically among (1) running a CONO extension to Mobile (2) Running a self standing NOL - ORL train with connections at NOL and JAX to other trains, (3) Running a NOL - Mobile train plus a thruway bus Mobile to JAX. The routes, schedules, costs and benefits are spelled out in the report referred to above. it is the equivalent of an EIS for this service restoration. The choice will partly depend on how much resources can be mobilized. In the future there may be a Mobile or Atmore terminator from NOL, but it is highly unlikely that that would be the first thing to happen. That would really not be restoration of Gulf Coast Service in a complete sense.

So yeah, the analysis is more or less already done. Now it is the time to actually execute.

From the discussions that we had in Senator Nelson's (D-FL) office where the Florida, Mississippi and Alabama delegations from NARP were present it seemed like minimally the Senator will push for the NOL - ORL train and not be opposed to the CONO extension. The Thruway bus would not be acceptable. Senator Wicker (R-MS) concurred later in a conversation in which Senator Thune (R-SD) who Chairs the Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation, was also supportive of that position. I was told by Nelson's staff, who also seems to work part time for Cory Booker (D-NJ), that he is a strong supporter of the proposal. It was Booker and Wicker that led the charge on the Senate PRRIA and the more recent proposed appropriation bills.

On the House side there are several Congresspeople both R and D, from the states involved who are on board, and Rep Corrine Brown (D) from Florida is all over it.

That is why the chances look good that something positive might fall out

Thanks Woody, I was unaware that comments in this thread were anything more than speculation by members, not a discussion based on the completed studies. I believe that Steven Palazzo (R-MS4) also supports this, though I haven't seen anything formal from his office. I hope the commission resolves the "options" before September, and presents a single recommendation to Congress, even if the recommendation contains two trains. I learned long ago to never present options to the federal bureaucracy, it only serves to muddy the waters.

 

[jis]

I suspect you have not yet come across the detailed analysis document somehow:

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf

The choice is basically among (1) running a CONO extension to Mobile (2) Running a self standing NOL - ORL train with connections at NOL and JAX to other trains, (3) Running a NOL - Mobile train plus a thruway bus Mobile to JAX. The routes, schedules, costs and benefits are spelled out in the report referred to above. it is the equivalent of an EIS for this service restoration. The choice will partly depend on how much resources can be mobilized. In the future there may be a Mobile or Atmore terminator from NOL, but it is highly unlikely that that would be the first thing to happen. That would really not be restoration of Gulf Coast Service in a complete sense.

So yeah, the analysis is more or less already done. Now it is the time to actually execute.

From the discussions that we had in Senator Nelson's (D-FL) office where the Florida, Mississippi and Alabama delegations from NARP were present it seemed like minimally the Senator will push for the NOL - ORL train and not be opposed to the CONO extension. The Thruway bus would not be acceptable. Senator Wicker (R-MS) concurred later in a conversation in which Senator Thune (R-SD) who Chairs the Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation, was also supportive of that position. I was told by Nelson's staff, who also seems to work part time for Cory Booker (D-NJ), that he is a strong supporter of the proposal. It was Booker and Wicker that led the charge on the Senate PRRIA and the more recent proposed appropriation bills.

On the House side there are several Congresspeople both R and D, from the states involved who are on board, and Rep Corrine Brown (D) from Florida is all over it.

That is why the chances look good that something positive might fall out

Thanks Woody, I was unaware that comments in this thread were anything more than speculation by members, not a discussion based on the completed studies. I believe that Steven Palazzo (R-MS4) also supports this, though I haven't seen anything formal from his office. I hope the commission resolves the "options" before September, and presents a single recommendation to Congress, even if the recommendation contains two trains. I learned long ago to never present options to the federal bureaucracy, it only serves to muddy the waters.

Don't know what you are thanking Woody for considering that I posted the response to your post giving you all the information

BTW the name Steven Palazzo sounds familiar, though I don't think I met him when I was on the Hill a few weeks back.

it seems that the primary choice of the local folks is to have their own self standing train which is not perturbed by late running of other trains etc. though the fact that the CONO extension actually performs better, might sway the decision.

We will probably find out from Nelson's office which way the wind blows before things get taken up for consideration in Senator Thune's Committee, which is the one that has to find the funds for it from the Senate side. It is unlikely that the House will do anything about it. If it gets into the final bill it will be through reconciliation between the House and the Senate bill. Most likely all that will have to wait until after the election anyway.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I have no problem with an extended CONO but if they are going with a standalone NOL-ORL they should consider running it to SAS to give daily service for NOL-HOS-SAS. Passengers wanting to go from Florida to California could then do it with a single transfer instead of two.

 

[jis]

No. They will not be running it to SAS. it will be a purely NOL - ORL service. There is already a train that runs to SAS. Just making it daily should be the first project. Please stop thinking up various schemes for mucking up something that we are close to getting in the bag.

Besides the very reason why they want a local train covering just the four states is defeated by extending it to anywhere else.

There is a separate effort in the works for what was called the "Crescent Star", the Meridien to Fort Worth section off of the Crescent. But that is not as far along as the Gulf Coast effort. As for Sunset Limited, I get the sense that the politics of it is more complicated and no one wants to touch it with a ten foot barge pole at this time.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Old sayings:

" Half a loaf is better than none! "

" Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it! "

 

[Hytec]

"Don't know what you are thanking Woody for considering that I posted the response to your post giving you all the information "

Mea Culpa.... :giggle:
Though I say again, thanks for the information, regardless of messenger. Definitely relieves my uninformed concerns.

Are there any reliable rumors as to funding sources and availability? The MS legislative session ended a few weeks ago without mentioning this issue. I doubt if Gov. Bryant would call a special session for this, especially since he signed corporate, individual, and economic inducement tax cuts, while simultaneously reducing most budgets by about 5%. Questionable economic frugality in light of projected lower FY16 income. :unsure:

 

[jis]

The Senators and Congress(wo)men are figuring out ways to add explicit funding/language either in the Amtrak LD operations appropriation or in some other suitable pot in the federal appropriation. Afterall, adding $5 to $10 million or so (with special instructions attached) to a $1 billion plus National Operations Appropriation should not be rocket science. But there are other possibilities that have been discussed too apparently.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

How long would a restored Gulf Coast Service take to operate NOL-JAX right now, taking into account the condition of the tracks? I know that the reason that Amtrak didn't reinstate service immediately after the tracks were fixed, was that the condition of the tracks weren't acceptable for passenger rail (too slow). Anyone have ideas, other than looking at the employee timetables for all the subdivisions and doing the math?

 

[dogbert617]

..... but I would prefer to see a restoration of a service more like the Floridian that hits Louisville and Nashville on the way to Orlando and Miami.

I am also an advocate of expanded Amtrak day service to Memphis via the Illini or the Saluki out of Carbondale. ... The TN Assoc. of RR Passengers is a tireless advocate for restoring/expanding passenger rail in TN.

The day train to Memphis should come first, of course.

No extra equipment required. Just extend the Saluki. It now departs CHI at 7:15 a.m., reaches Champaign at 10:25 a.m., and stops at Carbondale at 1:45 p.m. Instead keep it going for 220 miles, another 5 hours or so at the same speed as the CONO, and it would stop in Memphis in the evening, 7ish. Morning return, the same equipment could head northbound at 11:15 a.m., picking up the existing schedule of the Illini at Carbondale at 4:15 p.m., arriving CHI 9:45 p.m. as now. Riders would have a choice of the overnight CONO or the new day train to/from Memphis, and riders love choices.

This extension of the existing state-supported train would double the service to Memphis (1,344,000 metro). And it would require very little additional subsidy, because Illinois already pays for most of the mileage, and the ridership gains from Memphis would greatly help the revenue side.

Of course you'll know that Amtrak floated this idea, even sent representatives to Memphis to talk it up, but got no money from Tennessee. So it's no go.

Adding, or restoring, the train along the Gulf Coast, and adding service Atlanta-Dallas-Ft Worth, would change the Southern conversation from "When will Amtrak die?" to "Can we get one of them new trains?" Virginia will help by talking up its plans to serve Bristol -- and then Knoxville and Chattanooga. That would build political support for trains at the two ends of Tennessee. Then a successful second train to Memphis will have a big impact. It will take a while, no doubt, but keep up your good work.

I love that idea of extending the Illini and Saluki trains to Memphis, wish that would occur. It'd probably take Tennessee deciding to fund that extension(and maybe also Kentucky, if it were to stop in Fulton, KY?), for this to ever occur. And like others, I greatly agree in wishing there was some sort of Chicago to Florida train service. The Floridian never should've been eliminated all those years ago, but I suppose extending the CONO to go east to Florida to make up for the Sunset's elimination east of New Orleans is better than nothing. It really is sad that cities like Louisville and Nashville have no train service at all. And I think the Floridian also served Bowling Green, KY, Birmingham, and Dothan, AL, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, I looked up that train and am only sure about it stopping in a few mentioned cities.

Trying to remember the URL of that historic Amtrak pdf timetable website, but I'm oddly forgetting it for whatever weird reason.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Best source for old timetables: timetables.org

Floridian, 1979: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790429&item=0041. Also comes with an old Panama Limited schedule.

 

[DryCreek]

There is a separate effort in the works for what was called the "Crescent Star", the Meridien to Fort Worth section off of the Crescent. But that is not as far along as the Gulf Coast effort.

Well, that would make a lot of sense. That could open up a lot of city pairs for travel to the east coast again. I say build HSR tracks right down the middle of I-20. Nothing would get the attention of sleepy drivers with bored, fussy kids better than to be passed by a train while "zooming" along the highway at 70 mph.

 

[jis]

How long would a restored Gulf Coast Service take to operate NOL-JAX right now, taking into account the condition of the tracks? I know that the reason that Amtrak didn't reinstate service immediately after the tracks were fixed, was that the condition of the tracks weren't acceptable for passenger rail (too slow). Anyone have ideas, other than looking at the employee timetables for all the subdivisions and doing the math?

Ask and we shall deliver. No need to guess and do any math.

The current proposals are to run NOL to ORL, with a stop at JAX, which will involve wying the train to get it to head out in the right direction. Maintenance at the Florida end will be at the Sanford Auto Train facility.

Look at pages 21 and 33 for conceptual schedules developed by Amtrak taking into consideration all current facts on the ground, in the following document:

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf

 

[Palmetto]

All very interesting. I'm wondering how far along the discussions are between Amtrak and CSX concerning infrastructure improvements required by the latter, if any. My impression is that the route is not heavily populated with CSX traffic for most of the way, so perhaps there'll be nothing earth-shaking coming from CSX.