Proposals for Restored Gulf Coast Service

[Palmetto]

If we delay eastbound 2 and southbound 97 then Tallahassee on 2 and Savannah on 97 will get better call times, while Pensacola gets 11:45pm. (Tallahassee at 6am, Savannah at 7:40am)

How will that go?

And westbound really can't get fixed. Pensacola will be in the graveyard shift westbound, but I'd rather leave it rather than putting Mobile in it too.

Lengthening the eastbound schedule makes an already tight (4 hour) same day turn in Orlando even harder. So the answer is badly. I don't know what relevance 97 has to anything, it connects southbound on its existing schedule just fine, and 2 is entirely out of the picture.

What about the option of teminating both the Palmetto and the CONO in Jacksoville, and move the crew/service base down to Jacksonville? The negative there is that folks going to places between JAX and ORL lose a one-seat ride, but the positive is that there is more time to service the CONO and establish some recovery time for the return westbound.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

If we delay eastbound 2 and southbound 97 then Tallahassee on 2 and Savannah on 97 will get better call times, while Pensacola gets 11:45pm. (Tallahassee at 6am, Savannah at 7:40am)

How will that go?

Lengthening the eastbound schedule makes an already tight (4 hour) same day turn in Orlando even harder. So the answer is [it will go] badly.

What about the option of terminating both the Palmetto and the CONO in Jacksonville, and move the crew/service base down to Jacksonville? The negative is that folks going to places between JAX and ORL lose a one-seat ride, but the positive is more time to service the CONO and establish some recovery time for the return westbound.

Won't the Orlando theme parks be a huge draw for riders?

And besides losing riders heading for metro Daytona Beach, we'd lose 1 of 3 trains JAX-ORL. I see that as the beginning of a corridor service. Now all three trains will head south within a few morning hours. Perhaps add a northbound train ORL-JAX that becomes an afternoon train JAX-Tallahassee. That gets you go-and-return same day business. (The cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.)

This CONO-based train will be successful, fearless forecast -- and then improvements can begin. Lots of slow track on this route.

The long segment Pensacola-Tallahassee can stay slow; overnight has to happen somewhere (until there's a second frequency).

But shave 15 minutes off New Orleans-Mobile? Make it half an hour out of the timetable there with any Stimulus-sized funding.

Will any minutes come out of the trip when Orlando's commuter rail extends north on the shared tracks?

Put some of the next Stimulus money into upgrades JAX-ORL to make faster times and room for more trains on that by-then emerging corridor.

Somewhere those total up and the turn-around time gets more comfortable.

 

[jis]

Actually DLD - ORL is now owned and operated by Central Florida Rail Commuter who runs SunRail. JAX - DLD is owned by CSX. So no. nothing will come off on DLD - ORL. It is what it is. Currently there are no further plans or funds for acquiring the rest of the trackage between DLD and JAX.

If the locals have their druthers, they'd rather spend any funds available to extend from DeBary to Daytona along the I-4 Corridor, which would be a new construction. There has already been calls to retain easements along I-4 to construction of such at a future date.

 

[AmtrakLKL]

Yes, the Floridian was run until 1979 via Nashville and Birmingham.

Also, as to the Tampa idea, it looks like they're going to try and turn the eastbound train for the westbound same day (note only two additional sets of equipment needed). If the train continued to Tampa that would be impossible. Even turning same day in Sanford seems like a heavy lift to me, but I guess if the eastbound is late they could just make up a set from equipment in the yard at Sanford.

The train will not turn same-day in Sanford. The consist will overnight for maintenance and go back out the next day. It will same-day turn in New Orleans. There are three sets of equipment required and stated as such in the report.

As was mentioned elsewhere in the thread, there are no servicing facilities or personnel in Tampa, nor any spare station tracks to service/store the train even if you did an overnight turn. The schedules allow for connections to Tampa/St Pete/Ft Meyers via the existing Thruway bus service for 97/98 at Orlando.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

By the time this gets going in one form or another, won't there be a plethora of rail connections available from Orlando (I assume not all the same station of course)?

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

There is plenty of space at TPA if money was put into constructing a servicing facility. They have 2 tracks usable as of right now but the other 4 could be brought back into use.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

By the time this gets going in one form or another, won't there be a plethora of rail connections available from Orlando (I assume not all the same station of course)?

SunRail will be at Winter Park, Orlando, Kissimmee, and possibly DeLand. Brightline will be at the airport so would require a bus from Orlando.

 

[jis]

By the time this gets going in one form or another, won't there be a plethora of rail connections available from Orlando (I assume not all the same station of course)?

SunRail will be at Winter Park, Orlando, Kissimmee, and possibly DeLand. Brightline will be at the airport so would require a bus from Orlando.

SunRail Phase III is the connection from Sandlake Road to the Orlando Airport Intermodal Center. It is not funded yet, but it is already designated as a priority project, and should get funded in the near foreseeable future, and there is even a possibility that it might get built before the northern extension from Debary to Deland. SunRail will connect with Brightline at the Airport station which is designed with space for Brightline, SunRail, and an yet to be determined LRV service. Provision is also made for space to build out Brightline from the station towards Tampa at some point in the future. The original design of the station was actually to accommodate the Florida HSR to Tampa. Addition of Brightline happened much later.

The primary bus connection to Orlando Airport from SunRail is not from Orlando Amtrak/ORMC Station . It is from Sandlake Road.Station.

Once SunRail is built out to the airport in three to five years from now one would be able to take SunRail from Orlando Amtrak/ORMC to the Airport Station.

 

[AmtrakLKL]

There is plenty of space at TPA if money was put into constructing a servicing facility. They have 2 tracks usable as of right now but the other 4 could be brought back into use.

The revenue wouldn't put even the slightest dent in the initial construction costs nor the ongoing cost of running to Tampa plus operating and maintaining a turn-around facility. If turned in Tampa, they wouldn't do much more than the required daily inspections and very basic running repairs. Sanford is a full mechanical facility that can do everything, and if a car must be shopped there would likely be a protect available. Amtrak isn't going to hold protect cars in Tampa.

 

[Don Newcomb]

Hi everyone. I'm new on this forum. I live on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, where we have not had Amtrak service for over 10 years. I like train travel. I've traveled on trains around Europe and Japan. I also traveled on long-distance trains around the US as a child. I'm also a realist and can see the serious issues of train travel in the US. I was at the "10-years-out" meetings when the topic was rail service and I was in the crowd when the "inspection train" rolled into Gulfport. When you discuss restoration of Amtrak service to the pre-Katrina status quo, you need to look at exactly what that means. What was the service before Katrina and why was Amtrak so keen to dump the NOLA-Jax section of the Sunset?

1. The whole Amtrak schedule was synchronized out of Chicago. Three trains came to New Orleans. You couldn't transfer from any train to any other without an overnight stay in New Orleans. So, someone arriving on the City of New Orleans could not transfer to the Crescent to travel on to Biloxi or Lake Charles. This was a pretty unusable situation.

2. Look at this map on the Southern Rail Commission's web page. What do you see wrong? Hmmm? It could have been ripped out of one of my favorite books: How to Lie with Maps. Notice that the route of the CSX line along the Mississippi Gulf Coast is displaced about 20 miles north. Notice that the city of Mobile has been moved about 20 miles north. Notice that from Mobile the route actually is displaced about 30 miles to the south, not running to Flomaton then directly south to Pensacola but making a gentle curve connecting the dots. The fact is that the Amtrak route from Mobile describes a huge "N", turning straight north out of Mobile, running up to Atmore/Flomaton, then diving straight south into the southern part of Pensacola before turning NE again and following a more reasonable route from Milton to Tallahassee. The delay caused by this 80-ish mile detour so disrupted the timing that all the stops beyond P'cola occurred at oh-dark-30.

3. Add to this the every-other-day schedule and you ended up with a perfect recipe for irrelevance.

IMHO, restoring what existed before Katrina would just be a restoration of an irrelevant service. For 27 years I lived a few miles from the Gulfport Amtrak station and never once found a reason to use the service. I tried! I kept a copy of the schedule to see if there was any way to make use of the Sunset service. Once I looked at taking the train to visit family in DeFuniak Springs but when I realized that someone would have to pick me up at 3:30AM I gave up the plan and drove there. I looked at taking the train to Jackson, MS but that would have entailed an overnight stay in New Orleans. We drove instead.

Where I live restoration of pre-Katrina service would not help us at all. What might help is frequent commuter service between Mobile and New Orleans which also connects to long-distance service at Union Station. It's doubtful that CSX could spare 8 or 10 slots on that single trackage per day. And I'm sorry about that, Pensacola. You really are a hitch in the get-along. Until someone comes along and straightens out the rail lines into and out of Pensacola and moving their Amtrak station about 15 miles north, it just won't be practical.

Donald Newcomb

 

[jphjaxfl]

Hi everyone. I'm new on this forum. I live on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, where we have not had Amtrak service for over 10 years. I like train travel. I've traveled on trains around Europe and Japan. I also traveled on long-distance trains around the US as a child. I'm also a realist and can see the serious issues of train travel in the US. I was at the "10-years-out" meetings when the topic was rail service and I was in the crowd when the "inspection train" rolled into Gulfport. When you discuss restoration of Amtrak service to the pre-Katrina status quo, you need to look at exactly what that means. What was the service before Katrina and why was Amtrak so keen to dump the NOLA-Jax section of the Sunset?

1. The whole Amtrak schedule was synchronized out of Chicago. Three trains came to New Orleans. You couldn't transfer from any train to any other without an overnight stay in New Orleans. So, someone arriving on the City of New Orleans could not transfer to the Crescent to travel on to Biloxi or Lake Charles. This was a pretty unusable situation.

2. Look at this map on the Southern Rail Commission's web page. What do you see wrong? Hmmm? It could have been ripped out of one of my favorite books: How to Lie with Maps. Notice that the route of the CSX line along the Mississippi Gulf Coast is displaced about 20 miles north. Notice that the city of Mobile has been moved about 20 miles north. Notice that from Mobile the route actually is displaced about 30 miles to the south, not running to Flomaton then directly south to Pensacola but making a gentle curve connecting the dots. The fact is that the Amtrak route from Mobile describes a huge "N", turning straight north out of Mobile, running up to Atmore/Flomaton, then diving straight south into the southern part of Pensacola before turning NE again and following a more reasonable route from Milton to Tallahassee. The delay caused by this 80-ish mile detour so disrupted the timing that all the stops beyond P'cola occurred at oh-dark-30.

3. Add to this the every-other-day schedule and you ended up with a perfect recipe for irrelevance.

IMHO, restoring what existed before Katrina would just be a restoration of an irrelevant service. For 27 years I lived a few miles from the Gulfport Amtrak station and never once found a reason to use the service. I tried! I kept a copy of the schedule to see if there was any way to make use of the Sunset service. Once I looked at taking the train to visit family in DeFuniak Springs but when I realized that someone would have to pick me up at 3:30AM I gave up the plan and drove there. I looked at taking the train to Jackson, MS but that would have entailed an overnight stay in New Orleans. We drove instead.

Where I live restoration of pre-Katrina service would not help us at all. What might help is frequent commuter service between Mobile and New Orleans which also connects to long-distance service at Union Station. It's doubtful that CSX could spare 8 or 10 slots on that single trackage per day. And I'm sorry about that, Pensacola. You really are a hitch in the get-along. Until someone comes along and straightens out the rail lines into and out of Pensacola and moving their Amtrak station about 15 miles north, it just won't be practical.

Donald Newcomb

Unfortunately, Amtrak's last schedule in 2001-2004 did not connect with the City of New Orleans in New Orleans. Amtrak had to adjust the schedule east of New Orleans to accommodate Union Pacific traffic problems west of New Orleans which caused the Sunset to run very late. Prior to that in the 1990s and 2000, the Sunset from Florida was schedule to arrive in New Orleans around 9:20AM. Even if it ran late, it had no problems connecting with the Northbound City of New Orleans which left around 2:00PM. I made that connection several times and other through passengers were connecting at the same time. Of course, it was 3 times per week because that's how the Sunset was scheduled, Southbound the City of New Orleans arrived in New Orleans around 3:30PM. The eastbound Sunset was scheduled at around 8:45PM but was often late. Neither direction required an over night stay in New Orleans. I even traveled from the Crescent through New Orleans to the eastbound Sunset Limited once. It wasn't possible to make the connection the other way because the Sunset left New Orleans too early. When the Mobile - Birmingham section of the Crescent ran, it was possible to connect from the Crescent to the Sunset and vv in Bay Minette, Alabama. Between UP, CSX and Amtrak, a lot was done to kill the long distance ridership on the Sunset east of New Orleans,

 

[jis]

No one is proposing restoring what was there before Katrina. What is proposed is a daily service not associated with the Sunset Limited. It helps to read the document in addition to getting excited about a misprinted map

 

[Don Newcomb]

No one is proposing restoring what was there before Katrina. What is proposed is a daily service not associated with the Sunset Limited. It helps to read the document in addition to getting excited about a misprinted map

Another proposal is to have the Crescent make a hook at New Orleans and run out to Mobile. I've seen several plans proposed, including restoring the pre-Katrina status quo. What we really need is frequent diesel rail car service between Mobile and New Orleans but alas, rail cars aren't allowed any more.

 

[jis]

No. there is no official proposal involving the Crescent. The only proposals on the table at present are:

1. Extension of the CONO.

2. A standalone NOL to Orlando train.

3. A standalone NOL to Mobile train and a Thruway Bus from Mobile to Jacksonville.

Currently there are no proposals under serious consideration involving either the Crescent or the Sunset.

Of course anyone is free to imagine whatever they like. But those do not automatically get included in the stuff that is being advanced for actual implementation.

 

[CCC1007]

No one is proposing restoring what was there before Katrina. What is proposed is a daily service not associated with the Sunset Limited. It helps to read the document in addition to getting excited about a misprinted map

Another proposal is to have the Crescent make a hook at New Orleans and run out to Mobile. I've seen several plans proposed, including restoring the pre-Katrina status quo. What we really need is frequent diesel rail car service between Mobile and New Orleans but alas, rail cars aren't allowed any more.

They are allowed, but they are more expensive than the ones built for European markets as they need to be built stronger and heavier.

 

[A Voice]

No one is proposing restoring what was there before Katrina. What is proposed is a daily service not associated with the Sunset Limited. It helps to read the document in addition to getting excited about a misprinted map

Another proposal is to have the Crescent make a hook at New Orleans and run out to Mobile. I've seen several plans proposed, including restoring the pre-Katrina status quo. What we really need is frequent diesel rail car service between Mobile and New Orleans but alas, rail cars aren't allowed any more.

As jls noted, there are no current proposals involving either the "status quo" of the Sunset Limited or the Crescent (which would be particularly implausible given the need to establish servicing facilities in Mobile, an additional Crescent trainset would be required, and arrival and departure times at Mobile would fall during the overnight hours).

There is really nothing a rail-diesel car (RDC, SPV-2000, IC3, etc.) can do that a locomotive and a couple cars cannot, and using them on just the one route wouldn't be the most practical option (maintaining oddball equipment would overcome any savings in operating cost).

No one is proposing restoring what was there before Katrina. What is proposed is a daily service not associated with the Sunset Limited. It helps to read the document in addition to getting excited about a misprinted map

Another proposal is to have the Crescent make a hook at New Orleans and run out to Mobile. I've seen several plans proposed, including restoring the pre-Katrina status quo. What we really need is frequent diesel rail car service between Mobile and New Orleans but alas, rail cars aren't allowed any more.

They are allowed, but they are more expensive than the ones built for European markets as they need to be built stronger and heavier.

Does Tri-Rail still operate diesel multiple unit (DMU) cars, or did those fall out of favor?

 

[Palmland]

In the interest of actually getting a train running, rather than more studies and hand wringing, those supporting the service should try the incremental approach. Do what's easiest first and build some ridership. It seems to me that an extension of the CONO just to Mobile would be relatively easy and desirable.

Leave the CONO baggage, transition sleeper, sleeper, and diner in New Orleans for servicing. Depart NOL with the coaches (maybe one of them coach-bag) and the lounge with the cafe open for business. No additional equipment needed. With the heavy chemical traffic I'm sure CSX will be installing PTC and the line is already signaled with CTC (unlike the portion from Flomaton to Chattahoochie).

The only investment needed is for a new station and station track in Mobile for the layover and whatever CSX requires. The timing appears to be ideal - an early evening departure from New Orleans and a morning return from Mobile. I suspect any improvements needed for intermediate stops along the gulf coast could be funded locally if those communities are as interested in getting service as reported.

 

[west point]

For the CNO the New Orleans layover is important as its equipment is rotated thru CHI from same day's Eagle. You have to work on the equipment with the 20+ hour layover in New Orleans. One solution might be to do as airlines do. Called a change of gauge or smaller plane same flight number. So why not have passengers get off the inbound train ( which one leave it to Amtrak ) and cross platform and get on other coaches probably Horizon ? Call it the same train.

Once there are enough thru passenger counts every day then work out logistics of thru cars. Thru cars would need to layover one way or other in NOL or maybe two cars one way and two the other way or one and one.

 

[A Voice]

For the CNO the New Orleans layover is important as its equipment is rotated thru CHI from same day's Eagle. You have to work on the equipment with the 20+ hour layover in New Orleans. One solution might be to do as airlines do. Called a change of gauge or smaller plane same flight number. So why not have passengers get off the inbound train ( which one leave it to Amtrak ) and cross platform and get on other coaches probably Horizon ? Call it the same train.

Once there are enough thru passenger counts every day then work out logistics of thru cars. Thru cars would need to layover one way or other in NOL or maybe two cars one way and two the other way or one and one.

The Superliner equipment on the City of New Orleans can be serviced at the Sanford Auto Train facility; You don't have to do the work in New Orleans.

Whatever you call it, there is no need to change train consists anyway, and such a move would not be popular with passengers.

 

[jis]

Since one of the factors that makes the CONO extension financially attractive is the revenue from CHI - Florida through passengers, which will tend to diminish with gauge change, the analysis would place the gauge change option to be the same as option two - separate train. Option 2 is supposed to provide connection from CONO if possible anyway. Though the locals prefer a train with timings convenient to them and are willing to sacrifice connections for that. It will depend on who is funding it and their willingness to pick up potential revenue losses.

 

[Don Newcomb]

In the interest of actually getting a train running, rather than more studies and hand wringing, those supporting the service should try the incremental approach............ I suspect any improvements needed for intermediate stops along the gulf coast could be funded locally if those communities are as interested in getting service as reported.

An incremental approach sounds good to me. There is not a whole lot of facilities upgrades needed on the MS Gulf Coast. The stations/platforms at Bay St. Louis, Gufport, Biloxi and Ocean Springs are there and mostly just waiting. Might need sprucing up and signage. They took out the platform at Pass Christian (I think). In an unaccustomed fit of forethought, Biloxi has placed their new main bus terminal about a block from the old Amtrak platform and may want to move the platform to be right across the street.

 

[dlagrua]

I have great hope for restoration of NOL to ORL service in 2017. While the discussion is away from returning the Sunset Ltd, it would seem to make the most sense to just extend the route back to pre-Katrina days. No new equipment would be needed. Perhaps the CONO brings the same option but the Sunset seems like the easiest option to me.

 

[jis]

It does not make any sense to start a three times a week service when it is funded by the local folks. That is what you get by extending the Sunset. Everyone that is involved in planning this that I have talked to is firmly opposed to this idea. The restored service will be a daily service.

 

[nshvlcat]

When the new daily service begins east of NOL, does anyone feel this might provide an impetus for daily Sunset service to LAX?

 

[Don Newcomb]

It does not make any sense to start a three times a week service when it is funded by the local folks. That is what you get by extending the Sunset. Everyone that is involved in planning this that I have talked to is firmly opposed to this idea. The restored service will be a daily service.

This was my point earlier. Until something is done about that hitch at Pensacola, by restoring pre-Katrina service, you might as well walk where you're going. I apologize to the folks in west Florida but I'm not the one that laid the tracks. The only people who benefited from the eastern half of Sunset were the few people who had the time to make a very leisurely trip between New Orleans and Jacksonville. I agree that train service along the coast needs to return incrementally. Bootstrapped back into service. The logical way to do this is with some sort of service between Mobile and New Orleans on an at least daily basis. One problem is with state and local funding. People, in the rest of the country have no idea how difficult it is to find a few million dollars to spare in the Mississippi state budget.

I'm not sure what the final solution will be. Politically, it's impossible to bypass Pensacola but it's a practical impediment to the service, without some new trackage.