I would not expect Penn DOT to pay for it. North of Pittsburgh is out of sight and out of mind. Just forget about Ohio. Yes, NYS would pay for something in Pennsylvania, just like NJT paid for a large yard in Morrisville, PA. Though, I don't think Erie would break the bank. But NYS-DOT can be skinflints when they want to be.
Resumption of Amtrak service to Canada (2022-2023 Q2)
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Regardless of how infinitesimal its load was, the Maple Leaf is worth bringing back across the border because it was the only train preserving the Whirlpool Rapids Bridge as an active rail line. For the sake of maintaining options for future, more useful cross border trains in an era with more enlightened border staff, there needs to be a passenger train on that bridge again ASAP. Even if it terminates in Niagara Falls ON. A rare luxury of an international crossing that has no freight trains on it can't be frittered away.
The longer that bridge's track stays idle, the harder it will be to being back any service and the more likely it will be that Amtrak will invent some outrageous cost for upgrading the track and rail deck. I can also see people pushing to allow "temporary" highway use of the upper deck.
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jis
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Irrespective of whether the Maple Leaf consist is re routed or a separate frequency is run, a day train from New York on the Water Level Route beyond Buffalo is a good idea.
It is the Whirlpool Rapids Bridge - not the Rainbow, and the whole line on the Canadian side doesn't see much freight traffic any longer. Prior to the pandemic a lot of money was spent upgrading the bridge and GO Transit's parent Metrolinx was looking to purchase a good part of the line from CN. They had great plans, which may have made the Maple Leaf redundant. GO service has struggled to return everywhere, with this route being no exception with its weekends-only service.
The basic flaw in VIA Rail service is there is no equivalency of 403b (Provincial support). GO Transit is slowly creeping into VIA's turf to Niagara Falls and London via Stratford since it is provincially subsidized. But it is still a long trip on commuter equipment with such seating, no food service, and awkward luggage storage. Why not simply have Ontario pay VIA to run the service ? Use LRC's or HEP-II's when Siemens Venture coaches replace them. Of course, there is also Ontario Northland.
But unlike Amtrak, VIA Rail simply exists - at the pleasure of the PM, without legislation. Over the last 35 years, both Conservative and Liberal governments have hovered over VIA with an ice pick, while one party criticizes the other for doing so before taking the majority, then follow suit when they get elected.
As far as VIA is concerned, Trudeau is no more aware of Canada's existence west of Toronto than Harper or Campbell, though seemed to get a breather with Cretchin.
But unlike Amtrak, VIA Rail simply exists - at the pleasure of the PM, without legislation. Over the last 35 years, both Conservative and Liberal governments have hovered over VIA with an ice pick, while one party criticizes the other for doing so before taking the majority, then follow suit when they get elected.
As far as VIA is concerned, Trudeau is no more aware of Canada's existence west of Toronto than Harper or Campbell, though seemed to get a breather with Cretchin.
Ontario does have some interesting "new" equipment (okay, refurbished
), that may be the template for longer distance services, including food-service cars.
), that may be the template for longer distance services, including food-service cars.
Some of those are committed to neo-Northlander service, now destined for Timmins, as opposed to Cochrane, but it seems not until 2025. The food service cars have Amtrak heritage lounge car interiors down the finest details, brown tweed carpets up the walls et al. They must have raided Beech Grove for the parts and plans.
I rode these ex-GO carts 4 times in the 2000's to both North Bay and Cochrane. Over 30MPH, they rattle your teeth and vibrate your kidneys, but there is only so much you can do to TTC subway car trucks with 6' wheelbase. I hope they have since repaired their suspension systems. Those cars are 55-year-old, however.
Now if someone would just show some interest in restoring the ACR local to Hearst. 3 ex-Amtrak Heritage coaches of ATSF ancestry, possibly the ones butchered for Clocker service, are ready and waiting.
I rode these ex-GO carts 4 times in the 2000's to both North Bay and Cochrane. Over 30MPH, they rattle your teeth and vibrate your kidneys, but there is only so much you can do to TTC subway car trucks with 6' wheelbase. I hope they have since repaired their suspension systems. Those cars are 55-year-old, however.
Now if someone would just show some interest in restoring the ACR local to Hearst. 3 ex-Amtrak Heritage coaches of ATSF ancestry, possibly the ones butchered for Clocker service, are ready and waiting.
One thing that provincial transport planners share with U.S. state counterparts is the lack of transparency in the "national" rail systems' finance and accounting. It is hard for advocates to lobby at the provincial/state level when the only way of estimating costs is by inference from past projects or other projects.
GoAmtrak
Train Attendant
Quotes from users like Amtrak25 are somewhat alarming for me. It should be no question if every single border-crossing rail service should return, but just when. It should happen as soon as possible.
Europe did never completely stop running trains across borders. They were just temporarily reduced, for about SIX MONTHS (at best). They were reduced, not cancelled or suspended. The Adirondack, the Cascades and the Maple Leaf are suspended for TWO YEARS now. How is that possible?
This enduring suspension is unacceptable. I would like to see how the government would react if airports or highways would be blocked for about two years
What does the Canadian government say about it? When will service be back to normal? Do they care? Or are they still afraid of Corona? It's so annoying they don't move forward for such a long time.
Europe did never completely stop running trains across borders. They were just temporarily reduced, for about SIX MONTHS (at best). They were reduced, not cancelled or suspended. The Adirondack, the Cascades and the Maple Leaf are suspended for TWO YEARS now. How is that possible?
This enduring suspension is unacceptable. I would like to see how the government would react if airports or highways would be blocked for about two years
What does the Canadian government say about it? When will service be back to normal? Do they care? Or are they still afraid of Corona? It's so annoying they don't move forward for such a long time.
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jis
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Why is it surprising to learn that these services are really not as critical as air and road? To boot none of those are funded by the US federal government either!Quotes from users like Amtrak25 are somewhat alarming for me. It should be no question every single service should return as soon as possible, not if it should return.
Europe did never completely stop running trains across borders. They were just temporarily reduced, for about 6 months. The Adirondack, the Cascades and the Maple Leaf are suspended for TWO YEARS now. How is that possible? Strange priorities? Cultural backwardness?
This enduring suspension is not unacceptable. I would like to see how the government would react if airports or highways would be blocked for about two years
BTW, you have an unintended double negative in the last paragraph I think.
GoAmtrak
Train Attendant
Yes, you are right with my double negative, I fixed it. Thank you.
I don't think it's surprising, but it just shows that the political weight of passenger railway isn't like it should be and isn't like in most civilized countries all over the world. Passenger rail is still too often treated like a touristy curiosity in North America. In Western Europe, streets, airports and passenger railway are equally critical.
What makes it worse for me is that I don't have the impression things getter better for Via Rail (as others also already mentioned). For Amtrak, there are/were more news about service resumptions and service expansion.
I hope to see a return of those border-crossing services.
Quotes from users like Amtrak25 are somewhat alarming for me. It should be no question if every single border-crossing rail service should return, but just when. It should happen as soon as possible.
Europe did never completely stop running trains across borders. They were just temporarily reduced, for about SIX MONTHS (at best). They were reduced, not cancelled or suspended. The Adirondack, the Cascades and the Maple Leaf are suspended for TWO YEARS now. How is that possible?
This enduring suspension is not unacceptable. I would like to see how the government would react if airports or highways would be blocked for about two years
What does the Canadian government say about it? When will service be back to normal? Do they care? Or are they still afraid of Corona? It's so annoying they don't move forward for such a long time.
What is it you find "alarming" ? Are we supposed to support every passenger service there ever was regardless of its usage and institutional shabby treatment of passengers ?
The US and Canada are not like the European Union, and never will be. We have a real international border and unchecked Customs theatre, while no politician in either country nor any passenger rail advocacy group seems the least bit interested in changing these procedures.
As long as Customs refuse to board trains to do their work, the Maple Leaf will remain a dog, the Vermonter extension won't happen, nor will Detroit/Windsor. I know Michigan ARP likes to draw pretty maps in the newsletter (I get them via snail-mail), but they completely avoid the Customs issue.
The International was killed for a reason. It morphed into the Blue Water in the US, and will morph into several GO Transit trains east of London in Canada. Transport Canada is not interested in any VIA Rail service west of Toronto, except to Windsor via Bayview Jct, regardless of whether Liberals or Conservatives are in charge.
That's the reality. Life is not fair. It does not matter what goes on in Europe, Asia, or on our highways and airports.
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All the cross border services are sponsored and funded by the respective states, per the PRIIA Act of 2008 no federal funds should be involved since all three are less than 750 miles. Washington and New York pay the entire nut to Vancouver and Montreal, respectively, no support from Canada at all. NY pays for the Maple Leaf as far as Niagara Falls, ON. VIA pays for Niagara Falls-Toronto. I don't know their funding model, but doubt it involves the province.
Washington DOT badly wants the Cascades back. My understanding is the hang up is with COVID border procedures. I hope Canada's recent dropping of the testing requirement may help expedite the services' return. In any case, in the Cascades case the fact service has not yet resumed is not a lack of funds or will on the sponsoring agency's part. It is pretty much CBSA and CBP that are in the way, plus possibly Amtrak equipment and staffing issues.
General rants comparing services in the US and Canada to Europe are less than helpful. The funding, politics, rail infrastructure and other factors (Schengen Agreement open borders versus a fully controlled international border) are wildly different. It is not like comparing apples and oranges, at least both are fruit. It is more like comparing apples and asparagus. Personally, I prefer discussions that center around practically achievable goals within the real context rather than "Europe does this, we should" impossible blather.
I am particularly concerned we don't lose ground. I am highly confident that the Cascades to Vancouver will return in the fairly near future, it has funding and strong political support, as well as having had strong patronage, by far the most popular of the cross border services. I fear for the Maple Leaf. I don't know VIA's position on the train, but with GO/Metrolinx poised to increase Toronto-Niagara Falls rail service, I am afraid VIA may just say "fine, you do it" and the lightly patronized international service across the Whirlpool Bridge will never return.
Washington DOT badly wants the Cascades back. My understanding is the hang up is with COVID border procedures. I hope Canada's recent dropping of the testing requirement may help expedite the services' return. In any case, in the Cascades case the fact service has not yet resumed is not a lack of funds or will on the sponsoring agency's part. It is pretty much CBSA and CBP that are in the way, plus possibly Amtrak equipment and staffing issues.
General rants comparing services in the US and Canada to Europe are less than helpful. The funding, politics, rail infrastructure and other factors (Schengen Agreement open borders versus a fully controlled international border) are wildly different. It is not like comparing apples and oranges, at least both are fruit. It is more like comparing apples and asparagus. Personally, I prefer discussions that center around practically achievable goals within the real context rather than "Europe does this, we should" impossible blather.
I am particularly concerned we don't lose ground. I am highly confident that the Cascades to Vancouver will return in the fairly near future, it has funding and strong political support, as well as having had strong patronage, by far the most popular of the cross border services. I fear for the Maple Leaf. I don't know VIA's position on the train, but with GO/Metrolinx poised to increase Toronto-Niagara Falls rail service, I am afraid VIA may just say "fine, you do it" and the lightly patronized international service across the Whirlpool Bridge will never return.
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On that note from a Michigan perspective - while I’d love for the proposed Detroit-Toronto service to actually happen, at this point I’m just hoping the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel Bus gets restored. Since the Tunnel Bus shut down due to COVID in 2020 and Greyhound Canada ceased operations, there has been no way to cross the Detroit-Windsor border without a car. The new Gordie Howe bridge is supposed to have pedestrian/bike access, though it’s unclear how transit-accessible that will be. Last I heard the testing requirement was the main holdup - hoping that going away means they bring it back soon. Though I won’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen for whatever reason (or just use COVID as an excuse to kill it).
GO Transit T&E crews could conceivably operate the Maple Leaf instead of VIA Rail, and have Amtrak handle all international reservations and ticketing. From a passenger's perspective, they wouldn't notice any difference, except a disabled cafe car.
If not, Whirlpool Bridge will stand as a symbol, or dunce cap, of two allegedly friendly, advanced countries that are too incompetent, lazy, and arrogant to run a passenger rail service across the border efficiently. It was easier to run trains and the Berlin subway through the Iron Curtain than this nonsense. For that I blame the Trudeau government about their attiitude issues with VIA Rail and both countries on their Customs theatre.
What makes you think the Canadian government even knows these trains exist? That's perhaps an exaggeration, but they are likely so far down the priority list at the federal level that their resumption (or lack of) is simply a footnote on some report. The pressure to restore will come from local and regional authorities - not the federal level in either country. Washington State and British Columbia "do their own thing" on many issues, which is why most think this service will resume first - and soon.
neroden
Engineer
NY and Ontario definitely both want the Maple Leaf back. I fully expect it to come back. People from Toronto like to go to NYC, people from NYC like to go to Toronto.
The problems with the Adirondack (and the Vermonter) are down to blase attitudes in Quebec; both NY and Vermont want service. I don't know what the heck is going on in Quebec, but their recent rail plans have shown total disregard to any sort of intercity service whatsoever, so that makes me pessimistic.
The problems with the Adirondack (and the Vermonter) are down to blase attitudes in Quebec; both NY and Vermont want service. I don't know what the heck is going on in Quebec, but their recent rail plans have shown total disregard to any sort of intercity service whatsoever, so that makes me pessimistic.
VIA Rail doesn't operate the Adirondack, only services it in Montreal train yard. Quebec's attitude about the station's future customs facility should not have anything to do with blocking the Adirondack's return. The federal government runs Customs. Quebec has nothing to do with it, though I don't get why they have anything to do with constructing a facility in Gare Central, but that is irrelevant for now.
Maple Leaf is caught up in VIA's politics and unwillingness to run west of Toronto, and I suspect will take longer. It carries far fewer people across the border than the Adirondack does.
Maple Leaf is caught up in VIA's politics and unwillingness to run west of Toronto, and I suspect will take longer. It carries far fewer people across the border than the Adirondack does.
Tiny, tiny information point. I just completed my ArriveCan for my Thruway/Cantrail trip to Vancouver on Friday. Pacific Central Station is now in the Port of Entry selection. I have used ArriveCan twice before, in December and January, and don't recall having seen it then.
Of course, I selected Pacific Highway where buses cross, though.
Of course, I selected Pacific Highway where buses cross, though.
This attitude "it does not matter how it's done in other places" is an attitude that I see so frequently here in the US and I find shocking and disappointing. Why does it not matter? Why is there this general assumption that it is not possible to learn from other experiences even if they might not transfer 1:1?
Yes, international travel in the EU is something different than between the US and Canada - however, 2015 and 2020 have shown that there is some flexibility (border checks, entrance requirements) on living without a border. But okay, let's instead look at other countries that also have a "real" border. The Eurostar trains are running again between the UK and the EU. The Allegro trains between Russia and Finland are running even though Russia considers Finland an "unfriendly country".
Circumstances in Europe's government owned, passenger oriented infrastructure are vastly different than North America's privately owned heavy freight infrastructure with significant rail industry as well as political resistance to passenger service. Passenger service that also unfortunately has a very small share of the intercity travel market, so the constituency is likewise small.
Those realities have to be acknowledged and taken into account when discussing improvements to passenger services that are actually achievable.
neroden
Engineer
Because the Canadian federal government won't pay for anything (never has), and the US states are largely not allowed to pay for things on the other side of the border.
Ontario and Toronto have proven willing to pay for facilities for intercity trains.
Quebec and Montreal have not, and Quebec actually had to be dragged kicking and screaming to leave room for VIA Rail in Central Station during their big "REM" automated-metro plans. The first version of the plan just kicked VIA out entirely. Although this was remedied, the plan did eliminate VIA's proposal to come in on the north side of the river, too.
EXO owns the last mile of track into Montreal Central, and Amtrak has to negotiate a new operating contract.
CN has reportedly let the track deteriorate north of Rousses Pt over the last two years in Amtrak's absense, which means an indefinite delay for the Adirondack to come back.
CN has reportedly let the track deteriorate north of Rousses Pt over the last two years in Amtrak's absense, which means an indefinite delay for the Adirondack to come back.
fdaley
OBS Chief
I haven't seen any recent figures, but I can recall a number of cross-border trips in years/decades past (i.e., 1980s-90s and onward) when it seemed to me that the Maple Leaf was carrying the heavier load. Has it lost a lot of cross-border ridership since it switched to having everyone detrain at the border?
Yes, everything changed since detraining with luggage in each direction, VIA Rail cutting its other frequency, and the extremely high jump in through fares once in Ontario, VIA Rail's attempt to compensate for its poor riderhip.
I last looked at a VIA Rail annual report about 4 or 5 years ago. Taking that route's (with one frequency) annual ridership and dividing by trains per year, it came out to 43 per trip (international + domestic). It was also one of the financially worst performing trains in the entire VIA Rail system, ballpark with Quebec remote trains.
Amtrak website doesn't show state facts sheets for Ontario and Quebec, but from my expereince, every Adirondack load into Montreal (there is no domestic Canadian travel) is in the 121 - 144 range, that number I hear the conductors speak over the radio through my scanner. They are spread through 3 coaches, on each side of the dinette.
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