Resumption of Amtrak service to Canada (2022-2023 Q2)

[Mailliw]

You're comparing apples to oranges. A better anology would be if history played out differently and Texas was the sole majority Anglophone state in Mexico.

 

[jiml]

Gare Windsor still exists at its initial location. The new station has been renamed gare Lucien L'Allier to prevent confusion between the two.

Well, not exactly. Yes, the exterior still exists because of heritage designation (what the British would call "listed"), but it's a Cadillac-Fairview office building - not a train station (unless you count the subway in the basement). Some locals refer to it as "Place Windsor", with only the older generation still calling it Windsor Station. Here is a condensed version of what happened from Wikipedia:
In 1993, construction began on the Molson Centre (now Bell Centre), a hockey arena to replace the Montreal Forum. The arena site was located immediately west of Windsor Station on the trackage which served the station platforms, resulting in the historic station being severed from the rail network. The Molson Centre opened its doors on March 16, 1996, and the new Lucien-L'Allier Station was opened at the western end of the arena structure to replace the now-closed suburban train terminal at Windsor Station. Until 2001, the new train station was called Terminus Windsor, but this was changed to reduce confusion with the original station building and to indicate a link to the Lucien-L'Allier metro (subway) station which is below the station building. It is still possible to walk through the Bell Centre to connect with Windsor Station and the Lucien L'Allier metro station.

 

[MARC Rider]

Part of the former station was taken to construct the Centre Bell (Montreal Canadiens arena) and the platforms were shortened, but it's the same tracks in the same general location. There was a big push to purge English names twenty years ago, so no more Windsor.

Wait, "Centre Bell" doesn't sound very French to me. So it seems they purged "Gare Windsor" and replaced it with "Centre Bell."
But just as my Latin teacher taught us that French was basically bad Latin, I suppose English is just bad French, with a few germanic anglo-saxon words thrown in as a sop to the losers of the Battle of Hastings.

 

[jpakala]

If it weren't for immigrants from various parts of the world, Quebec might well not still be part of Canada. (It was their votes that prevented it years back, to the provincial leadership's consternation.) Even McGill University has had some struggles owing to the milieu. "English Canada" meanwhile is deep into First Nations promotion, such as inviting an official such greeter (in tribal dress) for the opening plenary session at a conference in Vancouver we attended a few years ago, and at conference luncheons in Ontario having the master of ceremonies always begin with a list of tribes' names whose land we were on. (I don't know whether that occurs in Quebec or Newfoundland or other places.)

 

[Devil's Advocate]

You're comparing apples to oranges. A better anology would be if history played out differently and Texas was the sole majority Anglophone state in Mexico.

If Texas were ever allowed to actually secede it would probably be annexed by Mexico, in which case it could sanction Spanish as the official language with English names being sanitized. You have to love this kind of mindset though. "Our cultural identity is the very best, but it's also not strong enough to survive on its own merits, so we had to pass government mandated protections to save it."

 

[Willbridge]

Well, not exactly. Yes, the exterior still exists because of heritage designation (what the British would call "listed"), but it's a Cadillac-Fairview office building - not a train station (unless you count the subway in the basement). Some locals refer to it as "Place Windsor", with only the older generation still calling it Windsor Station. Here is a condensed version of what happened from Wikipedia:
In 1993, construction began on the Molson Centre (now Bell Centre), a hockey arena to replace the Montreal Forum. The arena site was located immediately west of Windsor Station on the trackage which served the station platforms, resulting in the historic station being severed from the rail network. The Molson Centre opened its doors on March 16, 1996, and the new Lucien-L'Allier Station was opened at the western end of the arena structure to replace the now-closed suburban train terminal at Windsor Station. Until 2001, the new train station was called Terminus Windsor, but this was changed to reduce confusion with the original station building and to indicate a link to the Lucien-L'Allier metro (subway) station which is below the station building. It is still possible to walk through the Bell Centre to connect with Windsor Station and the Lucien L'Allier metro station.

I took the photo that shows the name "Terminus Windsor" over the street entrance in 1999. As I recall, Lucien-L'Allier Station was already the name of the Metro station, and it did strike me as being confusing to customers. At that time, the Metro planners and the commuter rail operators weren't on the same page.

Here are pictures of the 1999 old and new. My favorite is the taxis waiting at the old station. I saw this phenomenon in West Berlin, too. In a big city, once you get a cab zone established, never give it up, even if there are no trains.


The CP war memorial was English only.

 

[jiml]

Wait, "Centre Bell" doesn't sound very French to me. So it seems they purged "Gare Windsor" and replaced it with "Centre Bell."

As stated in the Wikipedia article, it was the Molson Centre originally - renamed to the Bell Centre when naming rights were sold. Of course in the politically correct world that has to be Centre Bell with the noun first to be accurate in French. Molson still owns the hockey team.

But just as my Latin teacher taught us that French was basically bad Latin

Wait, we had the same Latin teacher? Even though it was 50 years ago, I remember a version of that statement like it was yesterday.

 

[jiml]

Just to bring this thread back on-topic, count me in favor of routing the Adirondack back onto its original CP trackage into Gare Lucien-L'Allier. It won't happen, but it would work. Connecting passengers (if they exist) would have a 2-block underground walk to Gare Centrale. It's not like they have to re-clear security or anything.

 

[MARC Rider]

Just to bring this thread back on-topic, count me in favor of routing the Adirondack back onto its original CP trackage into Gare Lucien-L'Allier. It won't happen, but it would work. Connecting passengers (if they exist) would have a 2-block underground walk to Gare Centrale. It's not like they have to re-clear security or anything.

Certainly, if I were riding up to Montreal on the Adirondack and connecting to a VIA train, I wouldn't do it the day of my arrival, anyway, considering that the Adirondack, if it's on time, gets into Montreal in the evening. If I was connecting in the other direction, the VIA connecting train would have to get into Montreal pretty early to allow one to make the Adirondack's early departure. Thus, the only thing I would need in Montreal is a taxi/Uber to my hotel.

 

[jpakala]

This is an update it seems . . .
Amtrak Unlimited Forum group
Dan Peacock · t1026gp4h11r0e8hd49 ·
https://montrealgazette.com/.../quebec-budget-2022-1m-to... Canada recently committed $1 million for a Pre-Clearance Facility Feasibility Study at the Montreal Central Station to allow easier assess from NY and VT to Eastern Canada. Eventually, an actual facility could spur travel to Canada not only from NY's Adirondack but from VT's Vermonter and NY/VT's Ethan Allen Express, which will be extended from Rutland to Burlington in July 2022.

 

[Willbridge]

Certainly, if I were riding up to Montreal on the Adirondack and connecting to a VIA train, I wouldn't do it the day of my arrival, anyway, considering that the Adirondack, if it's on time, gets into Montreal in the evening. If I was connecting in the other direction, the VIA connecting train would have to get into Montreal pretty early to allow one to make the Adirondack's early departure. Thus, the only thing I would need in Montreal is a taxi/Uber to my hotel.

The reason I posted the photos is that I was struck by the irony of the second best station in Montreal being better situated and more attractive than many of the stations in North America that claim to have train service. It's a good point about the overnight stay, as the Cavalier to Toronto is not on the overnight run.

I wonder if the taxis are still waiting for the Adirondack to arrive?

 

[slasher-fun]

Confuse as in they would not be able to pronounce it if read or spell it if heard.

Surprising to hear. But still, I don't think that places should have in mind "accomodating English only-speaking people" when deciding on how to name a place.

If Texas went on a cultural cleansing spree that aggressively sanitized Spanish names and pushed English on everyone I would mock those moves as well.

Two things come to my mind when I read this:
- Montréal deciding to name a new train station with a different name than the old one (that still exists, although it's not a train station anymore) is not "cultural cleansing". Gare Lucien L'Allier has the same name than Lucien L'Allier metro station, and they're located next to Rue Lucien L'Allier. Gare Windsor still exists, and is still named gare Windsor. If you look at the name of the future stations of the REM in Montréal, you'll find "Griffintown-Bernard-Landry", "Sunnybrooke", "Fairview-Pointe-Claire", "Kirkland", and no "ville du griffon", "ruisseau ensoleillé", "belle vue", "pays de l'église", because that's how those places are named, but deciding to name a new train station after someone local seems logical to me, even if the name does not sound obvious to English-speaking people.
- Texas does not have an official language.

EDIT: woops, I missed all and previous answers that were on the next page, so it's a bit of a repeat

 

[Exvalley]

If Texas went on a cultural cleansing spree that aggressively sanitized Spanish names and pushed English on everyone I would mock those moves as well.

Your analogy makes no sense. The initial European presence in Quebec was French. The Quebecois have maintained a strong and vibrant culture, despite being a small minority in a continent of anglophones. The Quebecois don't want their culture erased - which is completely understandable. There can be a genuine debate as to how far they should go to protect their language, but they certainly have a right to maintain this important aspect of their identity.

You analogy would work better if Texas insisted on solely using Spanish names for public facilities. Frankly, Texas is an excellent example of what would have happened if Quebec did not take steps to preserve their language after England took over.

 

[dwebarts]

The last time I was in Montreal, I stayed at the Marriott Chateau Champlain, which is in-between the stations, so I know the underground route well. They'd have to mark parts of it a bit better to make it easier for first-timers to navigate between the stations without going outside. Given the climate, Montreal is pretty well connected underground in the downtown area.

 

[Exvalley]

As a shopping and dining experience, Montreal's underground city is incredibly overrated. As a way to get from point A to point B in the winter, it has some merit.

And yes, it is not easy to navigate as a first-timer.

 

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTES: Time to gently lean back towards discussing the resumption of Amtrak service to Canada please. Thank you for your understanding and participation.

 

[JP1822]

At one time, the clearance even at the border was "quick enough" to allow the Adirondack to get fully into Montreal before doing a same day connection to the eastbound Ocean or Chaleur to the Maritimes - at 6:30 pm or so. That was a GREAT connection that could have been to have made. If running late - one hopped off at St. Lambert to catch the train EAST to the Maritimes. Likewise heading west and back into Montreal, the Ocean/Chaleur were typically early "back in the day" and one could not only arrive and make the Adirondack connection with ease, but arrive, have breakfast, and leisurely make the Adirondack connection back to the States. One can only hope pre-clearance, or something in Montreal Station itself could help restore this same-day connection, but somehow I strongly doubt it.

Hopefully we will see the trains crossing into Canada by summer. The tourist and entertainment venues in Canada need the business. But whatever the requirements are going to be (fully vaccinated and definition thereof), they gotta get that ironed out so its reciprocal to some extent.

In terms of the future with additional crossings - Vermonter would be probably an 11 pm arrival into Montreal, and then clearing customs at Montreal Station - easily a midnight hotel arrival. Ethan Allen I can't see going any further than Burlington, VT. I would support a cross-border connection between Detroit and Windsor. I think it would make better sense than the former International route from Port Huron to Sarnia..... Not trying to go off topic, but a bus route actually still operates overnight from Toronto to Chicago, and it seems to be very appealing.

 

[thully]

As far as I know, the only overnight bus route from Chicago to Toronto was offered by Greyhound Canada, which has shut down permanently. The only service Greyhound seems to offer now are 20+ hour trips with 2-3 connections. A shame, given that there’s now no reasonable way to get to Toronto from Chicago or Detroit without driving or flying. And no way to cross Detroit-Windsor without a car unless you find a taxi that can cross the border - Tunnel Bus is still suspended with no timetable for its return.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Vermonter would be probably an 11 pm arrival into Montreal, and then clearing customs at Montreal Station - easily a midnight hotel arrival.

Yes, I don't see an extension of the Vermonter on its current schedule. More workable would be a return to the old Montrealer schedule which of course would not work for Vermont service and they are the ones paying. Too bad because the Montrealer was great for people South of NY on the NEC who now have to change to the Adirondack at NYP not as convenient a schedule.

 

[Amtrak25]

For acceptable times in Montreal, the Vermonter would have to run an hour earlier northbound on 162/130's schedule, and an hour later on 175/165's schedule southbound. It would trade off some minimal Washington, DC business for more Montreal business for everyone else.

 

[Bonser]

Lucien L'allier would just be an open air facility like St Lambert with no amenities, and a rather lonely place on weekends, something like Hoboken. I don't think anyone would object to running an Amtrak train to Hoboken today. I'll take that over taking the Dog to their bus terminal.

They could also add an intermediate stop at Montreal West or Vendome, the latter having an easier transfer situation to the subway with less twisting and turning through various passageways, stairs, and doors than at Gare Central.

There would be the issue of being on EXO platforms within their paid fare zone without one of their validated tickets.

I am sure there is no one on any railroad who once worked Amtrak to Windsor station until the mid 1980's. I don't remember if Amtrak was crewing their trains, or was D&H's. So now, either the Amtrak crew would have to qualify for the route, or do a crew change at Rousses Pt and get a CP crew who is qualified on passenger trains, or a Bombardier/EXO crew with CP heritage who is already qualifed on that trackage and is passenger train or HEP certified.

Hoboken isn't lonely or open air. It's station is beautiful and the tracks are covered.

 

[StanJazz]

Starting April 1 there is no longer a pre-arrival Covid test required. Just proof of being fully vaccinated. Maybe now the train will resume.

 

[jis]

Starting April 1 there is no longer a pre-arrival Covid test required. Just proof of being fully vaccinated. Maybe now the train will resume.

That is one of the necessary conditions, but not a sufficient condition met to restart train service. See @Amtrak25 's post further up this thread.

https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...rvice-to-canada-2022.81063/page-5#post-951391

 

[Exvalley]

We took advantage of the new rules and went to Quebec on Saturday for a little shopping and dinner. Other than having to use the ArriveCAN app, the border experience was completely uneventful.

That said, I don't really know how Amtrak can effectively monitor whether or not people have entered their information into ArriveCAN, which could make the situation at the border crossing problematic.

 

[Amtrak25]

On that App, didn't you have to fill out a Quarantine plan ? They still can do a test at the border at random, and will notify you a day later in Canada.