RFP issued for Amfleet I replacement

[frequentflyer]

Alsom just debuted a Multilevel car for Metra. Another piece of equipment for Amtrak to look at.

 

[IndyLions]

Alsom just debuted a Multilevel car for Metra. Another piece of equipment for Amtrak to look at.

That’s a nice commuter option, but I wouldn’t want to ride those seats for more than an hour or two.

 

[jiml]

That’s a nice commuter option, but I wouldn’t want to ride those seats for more than an hour or two.

Probably more about the shell, with the interior being "customizable".

 

[frequentflyer]

Probably more about the shell, with the interior being "customizable".

^^^This^^^

From a OEM Amtrak is also familiar with.

 

[nullptr]

In general these would be interesting for amtrak to take a look at, but this RFP was for trainsets, some of which would operate off the NEC, and since Alstom doesn't seem to make diesel or dual-mode locomotives, they would have had to partner with someone for this to be part of a bid. I guess that's not outside the realm of possibilities though.

 

[PVD]

Isn't Alstom acquiring the rail ops of Bombardier? They certainly offer DM locos. The question is the degree to which they would want to build them Buy American compliant

 

[nullptr]

It hasn't closed yet. I would be surprised if they planned the bid as a merged company, but a joint bid could predate the merger.

Edit to say Bombardier also makes passenger cars themselves, which is why a joint bid between them seems unlikely to me.

https://www.alstom.com/press-releas...acquisition-project-bombardier-transportation

 

[jis]

Acela Is were a joint Alstom Bombardier product.

 

[jiml]

Acela Is were a joint Alstom Bombardier product.

Between the two there are a lot of patents and knowledge. Just because Bombardier couldn't manage their finances doesn't mean they couldn't build rolling stock and there's lots of it all across North America. Alstom aren't exactly unknowns either.

 

[jis]

This looks like a basic Surfliner shell with a differently arranged setup at the end of the car - mezzanine level with inter-car walkways, instead of straight through upper level.

Which leaves me wondering why the State Regional bi-level order chose to try to reinvent the wheel and fail instead of going with the tried and tested design.

 

[nullptr]

Acela Is were a joint Alstom Bombardier product.

My understanding is they were the opposite of what we are talking about here though, Alstom power and Bombardier passengers cars? But I might be wrong. The fact that they've done joint bids in the past does make it more likely though, I guess.

 

[frequentflyer]

This looks like a basic Surfliner shell with a differently arranged setup at the end of the car - mezzanine level with inter-car walkways, instead of straight through upper level.

Which leaves me wondering why the State Regional bi-level order chose to try to reinvent the wheel and fail instead of going with the tried and tested design.

According to another rail forum this is a new body, and really does not look like the Superliner Part 3 like the Surfliners do (windows and roofline is different). Brilliant move on Alstom part to get a product ready to replace the thousands of Bombardier Multi Levels out there. As stated before, its just a car body, so its another option for Alsom to market to Amtrak. Maybe being NEC tunnel capable depending on height.

 

[Steve4031]

There is a news article behind the Trains paywall that states the first cars will be delivered in 42 months, and the remainder to be delivered over 2 and a half years. IMHO Siemens could build an entire fleet of cars before the first of these cars would even be delivered.

 

[jis]

According to another rail forum this is a new body, and really does not look like the Superliner Part 3 like the Surfliners do (windows and roofline is different). Brilliant move on Alstom part to get a product ready to replace the thousands of Bombardier Multi Levels out there. As stated before, its just a car body, so its another option for Alsom to market to Amtrak. Maybe being NEC tunnel capable depending on height.

The differences appear to be pretty superficial though. Difference in windows quite often superficial. Look at the wide variety of windows that have been incorporate into the basic LHB shell from Alstom by the various Indian Railways manufacturing facilities.. The question is how structurally different is it? And admittedly that is hard to answer by just looking at photos.

The curcial thing about the multi-levl cars that makes them different from single leve ones and inherently more difficult to design to meet buff strength is that they are center sill-less cars, something that basically did Nippon-Sharyo in. The critical question is how different is the basic load bearing structure, and that is indeed hard to answer looking at windows and rooflines. So we just will have to wait until more information is available about the details of the design.

 

[Mailliw]

This looks like a basic Surfliner shell with a differently arranged setup at the end of the car - mezzanine level with inter-car walkways, instead of straight through upper level.

Which leaves me wondering why the State Regional bi-level order chose to try to reinvent the wheel and fail instead of going with the tried and tested design.

One advantage of putting the walkways on a mezzanine level instead of the upper level is that bilevels can be connected directly to single levels without need of a transition car.

 

[sttom]

My guess is the new Metra cars may have been designed after the regulation change which would mean alternates to the Buff Strength Test could have been used. Which wasn't an option 10 years ago. I am just speculating this, the other option is they have found a way to make the cars compliant with the Buff Strength Test.

This means that Alstom does have a product with which to base a new generation of California Cars off of. Which will mean continued use of bilevels east of Chicago could be on the table. I doubt using them on the NEC would be looked at though

 

[jis]

My guess is the new Metra cars may have been designed after the regulation change which would mean alternates to the Buff Strength Test could have been used. Which wasn't an option 10 years ago. I am just speculating this, the other option is they have found a way to make the cars compliant with the Buff Strength Test.

This means that Alstom does have a product with which to base a new generation of California Cars off of. Which will mean continued use of bilevels east of Chicago could be on the table. I doubt using them on the NEC would be looked at though

The basic buff strength requirement has not changed. The only change is that it now applies to the passenger compartment and areas not occupied by people are allowed to buckle. Alstom could simply construct exact replicas of Surfliners and they would still be compliant!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Just because Bombardier couldn't manage their finances doesn't mean they couldn't build rolling stock and there's lots of it all across North America. Alstom aren't exactly unknowns either.

So far as I can tell Bombardier's rail division played no role in any of that. It was the premature and inadvisable challenge of a state protected aircraft conglomerate that did them in. Not sure why they didn't see that coming.

Which leaves me wondering why the State Regional bi-level order chose to try to reinvent the wheel and fail instead of going with the tried and tested design.

Sometimes there's a better solution to be had but much of the time forced/arbitrary reinvention favors waste and graft.

 

[20th Century Rider]

Amtrak news release. 75 trainsets or equivalent in individual cars to replace Amfleet I/Metroliner fleet. No ETA on delivery. Apparently the old fleet strategy plan of replacing the Amfleet IIs first is out the window.

Perhaps I am totally alone... but wondering about the tubular design of the Amfleet concept. Is it to make it seem more streamlined? to me it's claustrophobic and inhibits size of carry on luggage storage bins. Tall people at window seats bump their heads. And why cant the windows be larger? It would seem that the designs of the past were ahead of where we are now.
Below is an interesting article from 'Trains' addressing new fleet prospects...

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wi...osals-for-equipment-to-replace-amfleet-i-cars

 

[20th Century Rider]

This sure looks like a step up... why not use these in the East???

https://kxkx.com/check-out-amtraks-new-missouri-river-runner-train-cars/

 

[jiml]

So far as I can tell Bombardier's rail division played no role in any of that. It was the premature and inadvisable challenge of a state protected aircraft conglomerate that did them in. Not sure why they didn't see that coming.

You are correct, but there was a lot of financial mismanagement as well. Add in some dubious contracts, questionable European partnerships, then tilting at the Boeing windmill capped it all off.

 

[Mailliw]

IIRC the Amfleets were originally designed to feel like airliners and the small windows for some reason.

 

[sttom]

Perhaps I am totally alone... but wondering about the tubular design of the Amfleet concept. Is it to make it seem more streamlined? to me it's claustrophobic and inhibits size of carry on luggage storage bins. Tall people at window seats bump their heads. And why cant the windows be larger? It would seem that the designs of the past were ahead of where we are now.
Below is an interesting article from 'Trains' addressing new fleet prospects...

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wi...osals-for-equipment-to-replace-amfleet-i-cars

From what I understand, they were made in a tube shape to seem more like planes. Whatever is the new technology of any given decade usually influences what other transit modes look like. In the 1960s and 70s, that was planes. The narrow windows were down to people throwing rocks and them not have the technology to deal with rock impacts like we do today.

And if Siemens gets the contract, they will likely get Venture equipment or an adaptation of their Desiro multiple unit family.

 

[jiml]

The Amfleet exteriors have aged well however. When clean they still make a sharp-looking consist and probably look more contemporary to non-railfans than conventional cars.

 

[railiner]

The Amfleet exteriors have aged well however. When clean they still make a sharp-looking consist and probably look more contemporary to non-railfans than conventional cars.

You can credit some of that to the brilliant Budd Company industrial designer, Paul Cret, whose fluted and corrugated stainless steel car bodies have endured the ages, very well...

He was one of the best...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Philippe_Cret