Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[Blackwolf]

The Viaggio Twin looks considerably smaller and crazy claustrophobic when compared against the current fleet of Superliner-inspired California Cars.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

The Viaggio Twin looks considerably smaller and crazy claustrophobic when compared against the current fleet of Superliner-inspired California Cars.

Part of that is because the Viaggio Twin has very large windows. Is it confirmed that the Brightline style cars have been chosen over the Viaggio Twin? I know the article stated single-level, but it also claimed that there are no bi-level Siemens cars which is obviously false. It they both meet FRA requirements and would take equal production time, it seems to me as though the Viaggio Twin would be the better choice for the Midwest (unless they just want replicas of Brightline sets for some reason[emoji6]).
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[frequentflyer]

The arrangement makes sense to me, do not know why some would be against this. The calls for Alstom to remake some Superliner cars must not be feasible. You got to think N/S thought of that one long before we did and it fell like a dud. This way forward is the 'fastest" way of getting suitable rail cars.

 

[frequentflyer]

The Viaggio Twin looks considerably smaller and crazy claustrophobic when compared against the current fleet of Superliner-inspired California Cars.

Part of that is because the Viaggio Twin has very large windows. Is it confirmed that the Brightline style cars have been chosen over the Viaggio Twin? I know the article stated single-level, but it also claimed that there are no bi-level Siemens cars which is obviously false. It they both meet FRA requirements, it seems to me as though the Viaggio Twin would be the better choice for the Midwest (unless they just want replicas of Brightline sets for some reason).
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app

I think the twin is more of a commuter rail car not a intercity one like the Viaggio Comfort

 

[MisterUptempo]

The Viaggio Twin looks considerably smaller and crazy claustrophobic when compared against the current fleet of Superliner-inspired California Cars.

The Viaggio Twin is 15ft 2in in height, 9ft 2in in width. The California Car is 16ft 2in in height, 10ft 2in in width. But the Twin does have the capacity that Caltrans/IDOT was searching for and a has low-floor variant, for easier boarding in low platform territory.

There is also the Viaggio Light, which is a single-level, and has a low-floor variant as well.

Both the Comfort and the Light are narrower than the Horizons they might be replacing.

The problem with the Siemens line is crashworthiness vs. total car weight. The only Siemens Viaggio product known to be in compliance with US crashworthiness and crash energy management standards at present is the Brightline Comforts. The problem is that the US-ready Comforts are heavier than Section 305 allows. It may be possible that getting the Twin and Light to US specs would have the same effect. If an exception is given to Siemens on the weight issue to get this procurement finished, it would be right to wonder whether the N-S bi-level would have passed buff strength testing had the firm been given the extra weight to work with.

ETA - something else to keep in mind - If Caltrans/IDOT does OK substituting Comforts, there is still the issue of Siemens having to re-engineer the doors to accommodate traps, which would, more than likely, add even more weight to the already-too-heavy Comforts.

 

[MisterUptempo]

Here is a slide from a presentation by Siemens than I referenced earlier in the thread, which explains why the Comforts came in heavier than Section 305 standards-

img src - siemens.com

ETA - just a note - Siemens lists the European specs for the Comfort with a tare weight (type-dependent) of 45.5 metric tons, which is 100,310 lbs., and a total weight (type-dependent) of 61 metric tons, which is 134,482 lbs. That's not counting the extra weight loaded on for the Brightline cars to get them to US specs.

Section 305 dictates that single-level coaches are supposed to be no heavier than 104,000lbs, cabbages 108,000 lbs., and cafe cars 111,000lbs.

 

[MisterUptempo]

Here's yet another thing to consider-

Section 305 requires that all single-level coaches that have two doors on each side (which the Comforts do) need to have a wheelchair lift located on at least one door of each side of each coach. In addition, single-levels must have at least one wheelchair parking position in every coach that is adjacent to an ADA-compliant bathroom. Each coach must also have a second, non-compliant bathroom as well.

Here is a layout of the two classes of Brightline coaches -

img src - gobrightline.com

Provided this layout is still accurate (and there is no reason to believe that it isn't), even more weight would have to be slapped onto the US-spec'ed Comforts, to accommodate a second bathroom. That would also have the effect of cutting down on the number of revenue seats available in each coach. I also don't know whether there are any lifts on the Brightline cars, as they have level boarding at their stations, or whether they would just keep them at the stations themselves if needed. This could mean even any potential Midwest/Cali Comforts would be heavier still than the Brightline cars.

 

[PerRock]

ETA - something else to keep in mind - If Caltrans/IDOT does OK substituting Comforts, there is still the issue of Siemens having to re-engineer the doors to accommodate traps, which would, more than likely, add even more weight to the already-too-heavy Comforts.

It's not that big of a re-engineering, the RailJet (as seen in the video posted above), which is also a Viaggio Comfort has traps.

peter

 

[Train_Freak]

ETA - something else to keep in mind - If Caltrans/IDOT does OK substituting Comforts, there is still the issue of Siemens having to re-engineer the doors to accommodate traps, which would, more than likely, add even more weight to the already-too-heavy Comforts.

If I remembered correctly, Siemens designed the cars with the possibility of having traps, so they shouldn't have to re-engineer that. The only problem that they might have is if the states want the automatic gap filler that the Brightline cars have as they are located where the trap door would be, unless if they could be somehow implemented into the trap door.

 

[MisterUptempo]

ETA - something else to keep in mind - If Caltrans/IDOT does OK substituting Comforts, there is still the issue of Siemens having to re-engineer the doors to accommodate traps, which would, more than likely, add even more weight to the already-too-heavy Comforts.

It's not that big of a re-engineering, the RailJet (as seen in the video posted above), which is also a Viaggio Comfort has traps.

peter

Understood, and a hopeful sign. I was looking at the trap problem more as one of the many "what ifs" that might contribute to the Comfort's unacceptable weight.

 

[Ryan]

From the presentation linked a few pages ago....

I question Siemens' ability to meet Sec. 305 because, as was pointed out at the other board, Siemens has already prepared a presentation explaining why the Brightline Viaggio Comforts don't follow Sec. 305 in some areas. You'll find that presentation here- http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/brightline-Coach-Siemens-2.pdf

 

[west point]

Saw a diagram of Brightline cars that already have provisions for traps . Cannot find Siemens source.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Here's yet another thing to consider-

Each coach must also have a second, non-compliant bathroom as well.

Are you sure? I looked at the PRIIA section 305 specs for a single level coach, specifically section 9.5.2 for an optional unisex toilet room (UTR in Amtrak parlance LOL), and it appears that only one toilet room (the accessible toilet room, or ATR) is required for each single level coach. It doesn't make sense to have two toilets in each coach car to be honest. A lot of wasted space for sure. And why would the PRIIA specs go beyond the requirements of the ADA? Obviously the Brightline cars meet the ADA requirements. Perhaps this is part of the problem with PRIIA - the specifications are too demanding and just unworkable? Maybe that is why Brightline and Siemens deviated from them in order to actually build a viable train car...

I did a google search on "priia section 305 single level pdf" and found the pdf doc from highspeed-rail.org for the single level pax rail cars.

 

[frequentflyer]

The Viaggio is about the same weight of an Amfleet I coach, but I am wandering if the Amfleet coach is longer. Amfleet seats 72 high density format. Before Capstone it had seating for 80.

 

[MisterUptempo]

Here's yet another thing to consider-

Each coach must also have a second, non-compliant bathroom as well.

Are you sure? I looked at the PRIIA section 305 specs for a single level coach, specifically section 9.5.2 for an optional unisex toilet room (UTR in Amtrak parlance LOL), and it appears that only one toilet room (the accessible toilet room, or ATR) is required for each single level coach. It doesn't make sense to have two toilets in each coach car to be honest. A lot of wasted space for sure. And why would the PRIIA specs go beyond the requirements of the ADA? Obviously the Brightline cars meet the ADA requirements. Perhaps this is part of the problem with PRIIA - the specifications are too demanding and just unworkable? Maybe that is why Brightline and Siemens deviated from them in order to actually build a viable train car...

I did a google search on "priia section 305 single level pdf" and found the pdf doc from highspeed-rail.org for the single level pax rail cars.

This is from a copy of the PRIIA 305-003 specs that I found-

Maybe I read that wrong, but that looks to me like one ADA restroom and one non-ADA restroom per coach.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Here's yet another thing to consider-

Each coach must also have a second, non-compliant bathroom as well.

Are you sure? I looked at the PRIIA section 305 specs for a single level coach, specifically section 9.5.2 for an optional unisex toilet room (UTR in Amtrak parlance LOL), and it appears that only one toilet room (the accessible toilet room, or ATR) is required for each single level coach. It doesn't make sense to have two toilets in each coach car to be honest. A lot of wasted space for sure. And why would the PRIIA specs go beyond the requirements of the ADA? Obviously the Brightline cars meet the ADA requirements. Perhaps this is part of the problem with PRIIA - the specifications are too demanding and just unworkable? Maybe that is why Brightline and Siemens deviated from them in order to actually build a viable train car...I did a google search on "priia section 305 single level pdf" and found the pdf doc from highspeed-rail.org for the single level pax rail cars.

This is from a copy of the PRIIA 305-003 specs that I found-

Maybe I read that wrong, but that looks to me like one ADA restroom and one non-ADA restroom per coach.

The specs are confusing. Section 1.4.9 (referencing section 9) says each car (except the cafe car) shall have two toilet rooms. Yet section 9 implies that each must have an accessible toilet room and mentions an optional unisex toilet room as if it were up to the customer to decide to add it. Maybe you are right about two toilets on each car, but that seems like an outrageous waste of valuable space to me.
ETA - but then again section 1.4 adds the disclaimer that where discrepancies exist between the summary in 1.4 and the actual chapters, the verbiage in those chapters will be used. Talk about CYA haha

 

[MisterUptempo]

I see the section where you got the information regarding an optional second restroom. Thank you for providing it. There is obviously conflicting language in the specs. Just goes back to the lack of clarity throughout this entire process.

I've been questioning every aspect of this substitution because I'm concerned that this will just end up a bigger mess than it already is, and the cars that get delivered will be the product of expediency and face saving, instead of an acquisition that provides the best solution for all involved.

I hope I'm all wrong about this, but I can already hear the squawking a few years from now from those who will wonder why the hell California and the Midwest accepted this deal, instead of just waiting a couple more years to get what best suited their needs.

 

[Ryan]

Spec reading and writing isn't rocket surgery, it just requires some thought and basic reading comprehension.

Langauge about "in case of a conflict, this is the authoritative source" is pretty common, it's easy for a spec to get out of sync with itself over a lifetime of revisions. If you go to Section 9.3, it's obvious that the second restroom is optional...

 

[Brian_tampa]

My impression is that in order to retain the funding from the federal government, the states of CA and IL had to make some sort of deal with the FRA guaranteeing that they could actually obtain any train cars in a reasonable time frame. It's obvious now that Nippon-Sharyo cannot meet their contractual obligations. Siemens is the only Buy-America compliant manufacturer with a train car that can be built now for service in the USA and complete the order in a short length of time. At this point, it is either a less than ideal solution with a single level car or nothing for probably another 10 years. I'm not surprised the state DOT's took this action.

 

[jis]

The Viaggio Twin looks considerably smaller and crazy claustrophobic when compared against the current fleet of Superliner-inspired California Cars.

They are about a foot shorter than Superliners and have a rounder roof profile to conform to UIC loading gauge.
Changing the profile is certainly within the realm of possibilities too.

 

[seat38a]

Well kind of funny. I suggested this exact thing couple of weeks ago and it got moved to the "Amtrak's Future" section but now if the rumors are true, then I'm SOOOO glad that Caltrans is doing the most sensible thing and going with Simens. Personally, after looking at the Brightline trains, the Charger engines look so much better on a lower level train.

 

[west point]

Capacity is needed now not in a few years. The statement that NS would deliver bi levels in 2020 is suspect. None of the agencies can really wait 3 or more years for additional capacity. Even Amtrak may have to bite the bullet if CAF cannot finish the V-2s and start building coaches. Too many "IFs". Another if is how much can Siemens increase their production rate ? Any one know their current worker schedules ? one main shift or more / 24 - 7 ?

 

[seat38a]

Capacity is needed now not in a few years. The statement that NS would deliver bi levels in 2020 is suspect. None of the agencies can really wait 3 or more years for additional capacity. Even Amtrak may have to bite the bullet if CAF cannot finish the V-2s and start building coaches. Too many "IFs". Another if is how much can Siemens increase their production rate ? Any one know their current worker schedules ? one main shift or more / 24 - 7 ?

Well if it was my business, and multiple States including the State with the most money for rail comes knocking and if that State has already stated that they will buy off the shelf equipment for the HSR AND your production facility is located in the State and in the Capitol of the State, you better believe it that I'm going to do everything possible to make it work. Especially if they are looking to buy something that I already have and am producing.

 

[Ngotwalt]

Capacity is needed now not in a few years. The statement that NS would deliver bi levels in 2020 is suspect. None of the agencies can really wait 3 or more years for additional capacity. Even Amtrak may have to bite the bullet if CAF cannot finish the V-2s and start building coaches. Too many "IFs". Another if is how much can Siemens increase their production rate ? Any one know their current worker schedules ? one main shift or more / 24 - 7 ?

The CAF Viewliner order has no Coaches in it. 70 Baggage cars, 25 Diners, 25 Sleepers, 10 Bag Dorms. Option for seventry more cars including 10 diners, 10 sleepers, 35 Baggage Dorms, and 15 Baggage Cars. New single level coaches will come from the single level coach procurement. Amfleet II will be retired first, with Amfleet Is bumped to the long distance trains as new coaches come online. I suspect bilevel long distance cars will be Superliner knockoffs.

Nick

 

[Steve4031]

Could Siemens coaches be used in a consist with viewliner dinners and sleepers? Wouldn't be the worst thing if amtrak could standardize it's fleet. Obviously Siemens coaches on long distance trains would have to have seats for long distance travel.