Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Capacity is needed now not in a few years. The statement that NS would deliver bi levels in 2020 is suspect. None of the agencies can really wait 3 or more years for additional capacity. Even Amtrak may have to bite the bullet if CAF cannot finish the V-2s and start building coaches. Too many "IFs". Another if is how much can Siemens increase their production rate ? Any one know their current worker schedules ? one main shift or more / 24 - 7 ?

The CAF Viewliner order has no Coaches in it. 70 Baggage cars, 25 Diners, 25 Sleepers, 10 Bag Dorms. Option for seventry more cars including 10 diners, 10 sleepers, 35 Baggage Dorms, and 15 Baggage Cars. New single level coaches will come from the single level coach procurement. Amfleet II will be retired first, with Amfleet Is bumped to the long distance trains as new coaches come online. I suspect bilevel long distance cars will be Superliner knockoffs.Nick

As I understand it, the first Amfleet replacement coaches will replace the Amfleet IIs as you stated. However, the new coaches will likely operate on the long-distance trains and the Amfleet Is will likely remain on the regional trains until their replacement. Otherwise, LD legroom would be greatly reduced in addition to no longer having a legrest or large windows unless the Amfleet Is were rebuilt. The regional coaches also do not operate as many miles, so it really wouldn't make any sense for the Amfleet II replacements to operate on regional trains.

Could Siemens coaches be used in a consist with viewliner dinners and sleepers? Wouldn't be the worst thing if amtrak could standardize it's fleet. Obviously Siemens coaches on long distance trains would have to have seats for long distance travel.

The Siemens coaches can operate with Amfleets and Viewliners, but not Superliners in the absence of a transition car. I would not be surprised at all to see Siemens chosen for Amfleet replacements, although bi-level cars will likely be chosen for a future Superliner replacement.
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[west point]

"IF" The Siemens cars start being built we may see a long run. The various agencies need capacity and probably will want Siemens built to meet immediate demand. Until a replacement bi-level is designed, proven, and a significant number built every month the Siemens cars will keep coming off production line. Then once any new bi-level proves reliable and can be produced then the western agencies may not order any more Siemens. They may still be used or transferred to other agencies maybe new ones.

For single level cars Amtrak may get some single levels replacement cars "IF" the Siemens cars can be delivered to the Midwest / west agencies. As well "IF" Amtrak cannot get CAF to build V-2 coaches in a significant number then maybe it will order Siemens cars ( V-3s ? ) to supplement and replace AM-2s on existing eastern LD routes and possible new single level routes. How many and what routes would depend on the need for new Superliner routes and supplements for existing routes.

Replaced AM-2s might supplement NEC trains that do not get the mileage present AM-2s get.

So with all the many "IFs" speculation is just only that.

 

[StriderGDM]

The only real if.... is IF Congress will ever fund any replacements. I'm not hopeful.

Folks we need to get on our Congresscritter's cases here.

 

[neroden]

The Viaggio Twin looks considerably smaller and crazy claustrophobic when compared against the current fleet of Superliner-inspired California Cars.

They are about a foot shorter than Superliners and have a rounder roof profile to conform to UIC loading gauge.
Changing the profile is certainly within the realm of possibilities too.

How 'bout the Viewliner profile, which is supposedly the largest profile which will fit through every tunnel on Amtrak's system.

 

[Steve4031]

I think the larger windows will help address the claustrophobia issue. Iirc the floor to the car is lower, closer to the rails.

 

[MattW]

Initially, I was going to post something of a rant of how unbelievable this all is, but now I'm starting to wonder if there hasn't been some backroom dickering between the States and Amtrak. Here's what I think: we are about to get the Amfleet II replacement order constructed, they'll just serve the midwestern routes first. Then Amtrak's AMF-II replacement can just buy the midtwestern cars at reduced cost (since they'll be "used" equipment) while working to get a BiLevel order done.

Wild? Maybe. Giving politicians and Amtrak upper management too much credit? Maybe that too.

 

[A Voice]

Initially, I was going to post something of a rant of how unbelievable this all is, but now I'm starting to wonder if there hasn't been some backroom dickering between the States and Amtrak. Here's what I think: we are about to get the Amfleet II replacement order constructed, they'll just serve the midwestern routes first. Then Amtrak's AMF-II replacement can just buy the midtwestern cars at reduced cost (since they'll be "used" equipment) while working to get a BiLevel order done.

Wild? Maybe. Giving politicians and Amtrak upper management too much credit? Maybe that too.

Occam's Razor; The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

It is much easier to believe Nippon-Sharyo bungled the execution of the contract for a poorly designed bi-level specification (the derogatory "design by committee" would also seem to apply).

 

[MikefromCrete]

Initially, I was going to post something of a rant of how unbelievable this all is, but now I'm starting to wonder if there hasn't been some backroom dickering between the States and Amtrak. Here's what I think: we are about to get the Amfleet II replacement order constructed, they'll just serve the midwestern routes first. Then Amtrak's AMF-II replacement can just buy the midtwestern cars at reduced cost (since they'll be "used" equipment) while working to get a BiLevel order done.

Wild? Maybe. Giving politicians and Amtrak upper management too much credit? Maybe that too.

Honest to God, do you think that Amtrak and the states could pull off such a conspiracy? N-S screwed up. The states are trying to make the best of a bad situation. That's all there is to this.

 

[RPC]

While i doubt it was deliberate, I don't think it would be a bad idea. I'd imagine the state consortium really wants bilevels. If they have to settle for single level cars, why not configure them for long distance service and sell them off to Amtrak once they have a source for bilevels? (The existence of the Surfliners indicates building FRA compliant bilevels is possible, albeit with some waivers from the NGEC spec.)

 

[Dutchrailnut]

and still no official announcement ?? all business sources are not reporting the Siemens deal ????

 

[PRR 60]

I cannot see how the states could legally change this contract, that was competitively bid to s particular set of requirement, to another materially different set of requirements without rebidding the work. This is not a private purchase. This is government purchase. If I were one of the other vendors who were invited to bid on 130 bi-level cars (including several that no-bid), I'd be very unhappy about the successful bidder forcing a change to a single level car because they could not make a compliant bi-level car. This the the kind of shenanigans that lands DOT's in court.

And then, simply handing this work to Siemens, even under the guise of being a subcontractor to N-S, smells like a sole-source purchase to me. Another big no-no for government at this price point. Alstom and others could easily say they could match the price and quality of the Siemens product if given the chance to bid that product.

 

[PVD]

They may not want to. If NS is taking a hit for the delays, as well as paying the extra money to Siemens, and the consortium is not spending any extra money, nobody else is likely to be able to provide cars at anywhere near that cost. Not so common with Fed dollars, but not uncommon in state and local purchasing is RFP/response, and/or negotiated acquisition in lieu of straight bidding. MTA-NY does it all the time on large bus and car purchases.

 

[neroden]

You don't have to worry about bidding issues. I expect this is going to be constructed legally as a *settlement* for breach of contract by N-S/Sumitomo. Instead of settling in cash, they will settle in Siemens cars. There's no requirement that that go to bid at all.

The states have more of a problem with the ADA because the ADA rules apply to anything put into service, regardless of how they ended up with it.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

While the ADA issue is a big deal, in and of itself this deal isn't so bad, at least to me. Illinois service is mostly single level cars, the Siemens cars will be new and sleek, which will impress people. But we'll see what happens....

 

[MisterUptempo]

Two small snippets of info-

First, from the Section 305/NGEC Technical Subcommittee meeting minutes of August 24, 2017, just a confirmation that Sumitomo did make a proposal to Caltrans, though no specifics are mentioned. Link to the minutes - http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/305%20tech%20sc%20minutes%208-24-17%20final.doc

img src - highspeed-rail.org

Then, from the same subcommittee, the minutes from September 7, 2017 meeting, but, again, nothing very specific. The minutes can be found at the following link - http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/305%20tech%20sc%20minutes%209-7-17%20draft.doc

img src - highspeed-rail.org

Not much, but I believe this is the first time that the NGEC has made mention of a different subcontractor taking N-S's place.

 

[MisterUptempo]

The IDOT memo is back, albeit in a revised form.

This new memo was issued on August 31, 2017, by Jennifer Bastian, who is Section Chief of Passenger Rail Rolling Stock at IDOT. The wording of the memo now jibes with the information presented at the Section 305 Technical Subcommittee meetings of 08/24/2017 and 7/7/2017. Caltrans & IDOT are reviewing Sumitomo's proposal to turn to Siemens as a new subcontractor, who will manufacture 130 single-level railcars in place of the 130 bi-level railcars that were supposed to be built by the original subcontractor, Nippon-Sharyo.

The memo can be found at the following URL - https://www.illinois.gov/cpo/dot/Documents/Railcar%20Procurement%20Subcontractor.pdf

 

[rickycourtney]

While I’m happy to see that *something* is happening behind the scenes... it’s far from a perfect solution:

• Single-level railcars inherently will have fewer seats than a similarly equipped bi-level car. Replacing 130 bi-level cars with 130 single-level cars will mean a reduction in capacity. Nippon Sharyo would need to deliver at least 30 more coach cars to match the passenger carrying capacity.

• These single-level cars will not be compatible with California’s existing bi-level cars. Having two incompatible fleets will create complexity, which means additional costs.

• Unless some sort of novel approach is developed these “high floor” cars will take additional time to load at low platforms. That will add time to the schedules and increase costs.

None of these are deal breaking problems, but I hope that behind the scenes California is demanding some sort of compensation (like additional cars) to mitigate the impact of the switch.

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[frequentflyer]

While I’m happy to see that *something* is happening behind the scenes... it’s far from a perfect solution:

• Single-level railcars inherently will have fewer seats than a similarly equipped bi-level car. Replacing 130 bi-level cars with 130 single-level cars will mean a reduction in capacity. Nippon Sharyo would need to deliver at least 30 more coach cars to match the passenger carrying capacity.

• These single-level cars will not be compatible with California’s existing bi-level cars. Having two incompatible fleets will create complexity, which means additional costs.

• Unless some sort of novel approach is developed these “high floor” cars will take additional time to load at low platforms. That will add time to the schedules and increase costs.

None of these are deal breaking problems, but I hope that behind the scenes California is demanding some sort of compensation (like additional cars) to mitigate the impact of the switch.

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On another site, it was stated the midwest states were had cooled to the idea of bilevels and was only going bilevel because California wanted them. The midwest states may be just fine with single levels.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

This is effectively a compromise to get any cars at all. SCOA can declare bankruptcy in a situation like this, liquidate, give what little assets they have left (the money already given to them has surely been largely spent!) and leave us with no rail cars at considerable expense.

NS would never build another car here, because nobody would trust them, but that is basically already the case here anyway. By offering this substitution, SCOA is offering a fair compromise by delivering most of what it had agreed to, as opposed to nothing at all.

 

[sechs]

These single-level cars will not be compatible with California’s existing bi-level cars. Having two incompatible fleets will create complexity, which means additional costs.

California is already running single-level trainsets due to the need for capacity. It's not going to get any more complex.

One could argue that it would be worse to wait for bi-levels.

 

[frequentflyer]

Whatever legal maneuvering was done so that Siemens could possibly complete the contract, could it not be done to have Alstrom or whoever completed the previous California Cars to restart production? How long would it take to restart or recreate the supply chain?

 

[PVD]

California cars are a pretty old design, and were considered trouble prone. After their rebuild, they have been better. The next set of cars built which are the ones you are probably thinking of are actually the "Surfliners" They were rated for 90 mph, that would not be acceptable for many of the proposed uses, that would likely mean a major redesign in suspension, and braking, notwithstanding the whole supply issue for a GSI-70 type truck. HVAC and electrical would have to be all new based on "the march of time" Not sure if the frame and shell would need any major changes, I'm sure there are some folks who can shed some light on that. The whole project has been a disaster, but having the substitute cars built in California and not in NY at least softens the blow from a pr standpoint.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Siemens is currently tooled up to build single level intercity cars, as they are currently doing so for Brightlne. Anyone else would have to do extensive tooling and design work to manufacture such cars.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Let me go a bit further on that the Simmons car is currently being built in the United States for bright line. As such the tooling for this car is currently available for production. This vehicle has been built in Europe for many years and has been used in Russia and other places in all kinds of applications including sleeping dining etc. etc. etc. Simmons has proven something completely unique to the American market in the past few years namely that they can deliver cars on budget and on time. We should be happy that we are going to be getting a proven design in the form of the Viaggio comfort, and not some unproven design that has to be modified To meet current standards and has to have tooling set up for it and is going to take years and years and years for The ordering states to take delivery.

The older cars do not have production line set up and Alstom will have to start all over again in order to produce the bilevel cars that were produced for surfline or use a few years ago. On the other hand Simmons not only has been building Viaggio comfort cars in the United States for bright line, but has been producing the Viaggio Comfort in Europe for all kinds of different applications, and likely already has a large supply or base for producing things like windows doors interior components and so on.

Going the route of the Simmons Viaggio comfort cars will result in a rapid delivery of cars and likely completion of this order in something approaching a reasonable time frame. Going for the absolutely perfect idea of a bilevel superliner style intercity car as it was originally planned will result in cars being delivered many years from now if at all. Building a real car is not as simple as unrolling the designs from previous build in a factory somewhere in pointing to the workers and say build it. Their certifications tooling designs and all kinds of other complicated and difficult to produce things that will have to be happen before even car one starts being built . Aside for the inclusion of traps for low-level boarding the Simmons Viaggio comfort cars as produced for Bright line are already ready for US applications

I apologize for any in accuracies this is my first use of a voice type application and I have not really gone over the post carefully for corrections

 

[Andrew]

Let me go a bit further on that the Simmons car is currently being built in the United States for bright line. As such the tooling for this car is currently available for production. This vehicle has been built in Europe for many years and has been used in Russia and other places in all kinds of applications including sleeping dining etc. etc. etc. Simmons has proven something completely unique to the American market in the past few years namely that they can deliver cars on budget and on time. We should be happy that we are going to be getting a proven design in the form of the Viaggio comfort, and not some unproven design that has to be modified To meet current standards and has to have tooling set up for it and is going to take years and years and years for The ordering states to take delivery.

The older cars do not have production line set up and Alstom will have to start all over again in order to produce the bilevel cars that were produced for surfline or use a few years ago. On the other hand Simmons not only has been building Viaggio comfort cars in the United States for bright line, but has been producing the Viaggio Comfort in Europe for all kinds of different applications, and likely already has a large supply or base for producing things like windows doors interior components and so on.

Going the route of the Simmons Viaggio comfort cars will result in a rapid delivery of cars and likely completion of this order in something approaching a reasonable time frame. Going for the absolutely perfect idea of a bilevel superliner style intercity car as it was originally planned will result in cars being delivered many years from now if at all. Building a real car is not as simple as unrolling the designs from previous build in a factory somewhere in pointing to the workers and say build it. Their certifications tooling designs and all kinds of other complicated and difficult to produce things that will have to be happen before even car one starts being built . Aside for the inclusion of traps for low-level boarding the Simmons Viaggio comfort cars as produced for Bright line are already ready for US applications

I apologize for any in accuracies this is my first use of a voice type application and I have not really gone over the post carefully for corrections

Maybe Amtrak could go with ordering the Siemens' Viaggio cars if and when it decides to replace it's heavily used Amfleet coaches. (A business case should be made soon).