Silver Star sleeper update

[Palmetto]

Anderson said:

I'd also like to see Amtrak put a bit of effort in on the alcohol front (one thing VIA does with great effect is nudge folks to buy quite a bit of booze on the Canadian; I would think that similar efforts would have some effect on the Builder, Zephyr, and some other trains).

No one ever has to cajole me into buying liquor when I'm on Amtrak! However, I always bring private stock when I'm in a roomette.......!

A price reduction back to $6.00 would be nice, though!

 

[Anderson]

Anderson said:

I'd also like to see Amtrak put a bit of effort in on the alcohol front (one thing VIA does with great effect is nudge folks to buy quite a bit of booze on the Canadian; I would think that similar efforts would have some effect on the Builder, Zephyr, and some other trains).

No one ever has to cajole me into buying liquor when I'm on Amtrak! However, I always bring private stock when I'm in a roomette.......!

A price reduction back to $6.00 would be nice, though!

Well, a good example of what might be worth the effort would be having a diner-club (as discussed above) and then having the cafe car stock slightly less in terms of snacks (shunt a good deal of that to the diner-club) and actually enable some stocking of more of a selection of stuff for mixed drinks. You'd have more or less the same staffing requirements, but you could probably improve the net performance of your OBS by a few percentage points.*

*No, really...add 30 drink sales/trip to a one-night train as a result of this adds $153,300 to the gross of the OBS side of things. I can't speak to the costs (though it isn't like a bottle of whiskey has a short shelf life, so spoilage should be limited), but even taking the effort to match (for example) the availability on Virgin America would probably help their bottom line substantially. Even if the net, system-wide, only came to $1-2m/yr, (A) that's still a substantial reduction in losses and (B) if you increase both sides of a fraction you're inherently improving the resulting ratio.

 

[Shanghai]

I was in 9712, Room 6.

 

[DinerLite]

Official announcement is coming tomorrow, Monday 4/13. Space will be loaded back into Arrow with lower "non-meal" fares (maybe we should start calling these slumber-roomettes). Only available food service will be the standard cafe-lounge menu along with the complimentary water, juice and coffee currently served in the sleepers. Sleeping car passengers may purchase lounge food and "enjoy" in the lounge or their room. The evaluation is scheduled to run July 1, 2015 to January 31, 2016. Amtrak will monitor the cost savings and customer (dis)satisfaction during the evaluation period.

Sleeping car passengers already booked on 91/92 after July 1 will be contacted and offered three options:

1) No penalty refund between original fare and the new, lower fare without meals.
2) Rebook to the Silver Meteor. The original fare will be honored if the Meteor is higher. A refund will be processed for the difference if lower. If the Meteor is sold-out, sleeper passengers may rebook within a four day window on either side of the original travel date. (This is not an option for RGH, CYN, SOP, HAM, DNK, CLB or CAM passengers. TPA and LAK passengers can rebook but have to ride a bus to/from ORL.)

3) Full refund without penalty.

Coach passengers may also call in and rebook on the Silver Meteor at no charge, but no change to travel dates is permitted. If the Meteor is a lower fare, refund will be issued with no penalty.

Some background on the fare buckets: Currently, there are five sleeper buckets: S, A, B, C, D. Three new buckets are being added for the lower non-meal fares: E, F & G. Unknown if only those three fares are being offered or if they will be sold in concert with C and D to maintain five buckets.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the coming months... Sigh.

 

[greatcats]

If I should take that train, the plan would be to bring a cooler and visit a gourmet deli prior to departure. I prefer dining cars, but their cuisine has become BORING.

 

[Anderson]

In my case, it's going to be MREs...lots and lots of MREs. When I'm on this train I actually plan to take pains not to spend a cent on any food or beverage service post-July 1. I'd be a little bit more understanding if the cafe were going to be beefed up a bit..

To be fair, I'm saving my worst epithets for members of Congress (not to be delivered in person, sadly).

 

[Amfleeter]

There's now a sleeper train with worse food service than the Cardinal, which can still claim to have a diner of sorts.

That really hits hard to the Silver Star. How bad does the Star perform?

 

[xyzzy]

I've posted this before but here goes again. The Silver Star serves three markets: New York - Raleigh, intra-Florida, and a lesser number of people who ride overnight. The Star does reasonably well in the first two markets. Few short-haul passengers use the diner. I've had dinner in the diner on 91 at 7-7:30 pm and seen fewer passengers in it than Amtrak staff.

 

[Hungrey]

Note to self, pack "dorm size" refrigerator, microwave, and hot plate when taking the Star.

Load up on snacks and such from the ClubAcela before boarding. Run into WAS ClubAcela for refills.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I imagine the delay in the announcement & making bookings available was due to the necessary work to update Arrow & the website. These things take time.

 

[Guest]

I've posted this before but here goes again. The Silver Star serves three markets: New York - Raleigh, intra-Florida, and a lesser number of people who ride overnight. The Star does reasonably well in the first two markets. Few short-haul passengers use the diner. I've had dinner in the diner on 91 at 7-7:30 pm and seen fewer passengers in it than Amtrak staff.

I have always taken the 91 Star southbound (fits far better into the real world schedules than the Meteor), from Philly to Orlando, and the diner is always packed. With or without "reservations", there is always a line on the Sleeper end waiting for a table, and every table is full.

 

[Anderson]

I've posted this before but here goes again. The Silver Star serves three markets: New York - Raleigh, intra-Florida, and a lesser number of people who ride overnight. The Star does reasonably well in the first two markets. Few short-haul passengers use the diner. I've had dinner in the diner on 91 at 7-7:30 pm and seen fewer passengers in it than Amtrak staff.

I have always taken the 91 Star southbound (fits far better into the real world schedules than the Meteor), from Philly to Orlando, and the diner is always packed. With or without "reservations", there is always a line on the Sleeper end waiting for a table, and every table is full.

I've seen it break both ways. It is often packed south out of RVR, a bit more sparse north out of RVR, and it is often quite full north out of ORL. But it varies and I've seen it randomly rather empty as well.

 

[user 1215]

Poor OBS! They'll have to survive 28 hours without flat iron steak.

Sarcastic silliness aside, these trains often run out of food in the cafe. Now they want sleeper pax fighting with the proles for microwave burgers?

The continued decay of Amtrak continues behind those shiny new baggage cars and ACS's.

 

[Anderson]

Poor OBS! They'll have to survive 28 hours without flat iron steak.

My understanding is that the OBS often pack their own food, if just because it gets so repetitive. The repetitiveness was actually part of why, when they had two menus on the Silvers, they had them distributed like they were: So the crews got both menus.

 

[PRR 60]

Isn't this basically a version of the old slumber coach service that is so fondly remembered by so many? I'm not so sure that it will be a failure. There could well be a market for a lower cost, no-frills sleeper service to Florida. The question that will be answered later today is how much lower cost.

While we love to blame Congress and "micromanaging," I fail to see how that is the case here. Micromanaging is telling someone not just what to do, but specifically how to do it. Congress simply told Amtrak to cut food and beverage losses. Amtrak is deciding how to do it, and this trial run is one of the ways. The reality is that a disproportionate amount of Amtrak's operating loss is due to food and beverage. The other costs like fuel, equipment maintenance, operating crews - the stuff that is most commonly associated with running trains has steadily been coming in line with revenue. Food and beverage, not so much, and the full service dining cars are responsible for the vast majority of that loss. Amtrak has set a goal of eliminating the food and beverage losses in five years. Something has to give to make that happen. With no change, we could literally reach the point where all the requested federal operating subsidy is for food and beverage, which is kind of nuts.

Now, having said that, this is not the way I would do it. Were I in charge of the Amtrak world, I would have taken the opposite route. I would administratively separate the sleeper service from Amtrak and operate it as a separate, for profit business unit. Amtrak would charge the sleeper unit for the avoided cost of operating the sleepers and other cars specific to the sleepers on the train. The cost of providing the sleeper service would be on the Sleeper BU. I would beef-up service and amenities, and to provide a true "first class" experience. Sleeper fares would be set based on the estimated cost, likely higher than today, but with the expectation that the on board experience, including food and beverage, would be similarly better and much more consistent. The expenses of the sleeper food and beverage operation would be rolled into the overall sleeper unit expenses, and then would be covered by the overall sleeper unit revenue. If that worked, and this separate sleeper business unit is shown to be profitable, then the cost of food and beverage for that service would not be an issue for the federal subsidy. It would simply be one of the costs of an otherwise profitable and fully separate operation.

Joe Boardman and company has decided to take the cheap it down route. It might work, but if it does it will be at the expense of what many of us consider to be the rail travel experience. Make no mistake, this is Amtrak's choice. Congress only said to cut food and beverage costs. Amtrak is deciding how, and it appears, this is how.

 

[jis]

I agree with PRR. A full service first class Sleeper service through a Sleeper BU would be the way to go. That is somewhat like how the old railroads did it with Pullman before they decided Pullman was costing them too much and decimated it, only then to follow with decimating passenger service altogether in many cases (there were a few exceptions). Meanwhile I would be a very happy camper with a no frills Sleeper service with provision for adequate basic meals separate from the ticket at a reasonable price, run by whoever. What I desire most while traveling is a flat place to sleep on and adequate food. When I need gourmet meals I go to Mortons.

 

[Tim Lynch]

I've posted this before but here goes again. The Silver Star serves three markets: New York - Raleigh, intra-Florida, and a lesser number of people who ride overnight. The Star does reasonably well in the first two markets. Few short-haul passengers use the diner. I've had dinner in the diner on 91 at 7-7:30 pm and seen fewer passengers in it than Amtrak staff.

Susan and I ride the Star frequently Hollywood FL to Tampa and return. Don't kid yourself, Tampa with one train a day is Florida's 3rd busiest station. Auto Train Sanford #1, Evil Mouse (Orlando) #2 and Tampa is #3. We get a roomette, have lunch on our way to Tampa and Lunch again when we return. It's a busy diner both ways.

 

[chrsjrcj]

In my experience, the Meteor's diner has always been much busier than the Star's. But that's only based off of a few overnight trips I've taken on both trains.

 

[Ryan]

I agree with PRR. A full service first class Sleeper service through a Sleeper BU would be the way to go. That is somewhat like how the old railroads did it with Pullman before they decided Pullman was costing them too much and decimated it, only then to follow with decimating passenger service altogether in many cases (there were a few exceptions). Meanwhile I would be a very happy camper with a no frills Sleeper service with provision for adequate basic meals separate from the ticket at a reasonable price, run by whoever. What I desire most while traveling is a flat place to sleep on and adequate food. When I need gourmet meals I go to Mortons.

Hopefully this is a role that the new Pullman folks can be successful at and expand past the CONO route.

 

[Anderson]

The issue is that trying to separate the F&B from the trains themselves is something of a fool's errand. Really the only place where the F&B pay for themselves is on the Regionals (Amtrak rolls the Regionals and the Acelas together, but the Regional cafes are serving 2-3x as many customers as the Acela cafes are)...and this has rather always been the case (on-board food service has rarely turned a profit, though I suspect the occasional well-stocked bar has done alright for itself).

The real issue is (setting aside the mess of the Viewliner IIs) that Amtrak's LD trains have not, until this year, recieved any new equipment in something like 20-25 years while Amtrak was forced to dump the Heritage sleepers because of the dump toilets. Even then, the order was utterly insufficient for the needs Amtrak has had and the result has, in so many words, been that as ridership has risen Amtrak hasn't exactly been able to meet demand. Let's consider how often the sleepers were sold out on one or both of the Silvers over the last month or so.

Amtrak has attempted things like this before. The CCC effort wasn't a bad idea, particularly as it was aimed at a train with very low ridership. That experiment disintegrated as ridership rose. This isn't to say that, in the short term, an effort to make one food service car work on a train couldn't pay off...but it needs to be something more than a baseline Amcafe. I was talking with Charlie a few hours ago, and even if Amtrak did something like copy the Cascades cafe service levels over to the Star it would be an improvement. The problem is that now the Star is set to have even worse food service than the Cardinal, and I've avoided that train like the plague in no small part because of the food situation.

Back around to the point on "micromanagement", Congress seems prone to setting up tangles of mandates for Amtrak that are effectively impossible to meet. It isn't enough for Amtrak to nearly eliminate operating losses (and to really just need to be able to get the Acela IIs into operation to eradicate the rest of them), they also need to eliminate them in a specific line item. If the mandate were to knock losses down by $75m (IIRC that's about the amount of the claimed OBS loss) in the next five years then I think Amtrak could do that without even trying even without the Acela IIs. Instead, the mandate is to eliminate losses in a specific business unit...and one that has room to make a cross-country trip friggin' miserable if implemented nationally.

Edit: I have to seriously wonder what would happen if Amtrak pulled this on the CONO and Ed Ellis threw the doors open on his diner to Amtrak's passengers (albeit on a for-pay basis).

 

[jis]

Edit: I have to seriously wonder what would happen if Amtrak pulled this on the CONO and Ed Ellis threw the doors open on his diner to Amtrak's passengers (albeit on a for-pay basis).

That would be almost like the return of the Harvey House model on Santa Fe, no?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Now that we know the plan,let the thumbs down begin!

The only way I would ride the Star to Florida overnight would be South bound if doing a turn in Orlando like some of us have been known to do! For sure bringing my own food and beverages would be job one!

If the new quasi Slumber Coach buckets are low enough to entice riders to fill all the rooms, that isn't a bad idea but as was said, the long lines @ the cafe and the limited fast food type choices of items offered for sale, as well as running out of items, will offset the appeal of this idea.

The Silvers new slogan could be " Let them drink coffee, juice and bottled water, and let them eat cake!"

And what about the OBS, are contract workers protected and will bumping begin as union members decide they would rather work the Meteor? Will there be two LSAs in the Cafe? Will the Diner on the Meteor have beegmfed up staff to handle the additional Sleeper etc.??

Even though I don't wish Amtrak ill, this is a typical Washington group think decision that will satisfy no one including the mica managers in Congress!

Thumbs Down to this experiment, it's a Lose/Lose for everyone!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Sleepers are available online now, but no mention, that I can see, that meals are not included. Didn't look at the icons. That will probably trip some people up if they're used to meals being included.

Price difference (just the roomette) between Star and Meteor (WIL to ORL) $166 vs $289 on Oct 7th.

 

[Train2104]

The press release...

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/68/104/Amtrak-Lower-Sleeping-Car-Fares-to-Florida-ATK-15-022.pdf

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I can see one possible benefit from this. Those people who would normally only ride coach due to the high cost of rooms w/meals, may now try a room. And you know what AUers say - "once you've tried a room(ette), you'll never go back".